To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Senkaku]

Okay. At first I thought it was just the weird nationalism, but no, I see it clearly now, it's bigotry.

Bigotry against bigotry, we're fine with that. Being tolerant of bigots will not make them tolerant too.

Meanwhile, random people in the middle will get fucked from both ends! Sounds like fun.

[Australian rePublic]

In the interest of consistency, would you support Middle Eastern countries forcing all visiting women to wear a burka?

But they don't
Do you know what a Burqa is
A Burqa is a traditional Afghan dress worn by women and I covers the face completely.outside Afghanistan,it is virtually none exisitant

You clearly have never been to Bankstown shopping centre in Sydney

[Chessmistress]

And their lack of honesty is absolutely clear when they suppose that "most" (or even ALL) women like to dress so

The suggestion was that some women might choose to, and their right to dress as they please shouldn't be taken away from them, actually. But please, continue misrepresenting the argument, I look forward to seeing your latest mental gymnastics. Simone Biles ain't got nothin' on you, Chess.

Who cares if some women might choose?

The overwhelmingly majority are enforced through systemic oppression within their communities, under a very patriarchal religion.

Should we perpetuate and even defend the active oppression of 99% in order to let the right of choice of 1%?

[Galloism]

Here's a suggestion- why don't you ban the kippah?

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?

So, you're defending minorities right by taking away minorities rights?

Yep, that makes perfect sense, 10/10 logic.

We're defending minorities' rights by fighting reactionary ideas. That's how we got all these minorities' rights in the first place, by fighting Christianity, as we do to Islam today. Had we not fought Christianity, all these minorities would have had no rights. And if we don't banalize Islam, they won't have rights anymore either.

Sadly, I understand it too, perfectly: I would call it "misogyny under the guise of Feminism" - those kind of people use the same words we use, but they mean something very different: they endorse the "choice" of women who are under an enormous pressure by their communities and called names if they don't wear such dresses ALWAYS (because that's the point: it's not a choice, because it's ALWAYS).
The same people who would call the cops for "abuse against animals" if I would dress my dog in the same way during the summer, under the sun: they would say that the dog is suffering.
And their lack of honesty is absolutely clear when they suppose that "most" (or even ALL) women like to dress so under the summer hot sun- that is against basic human biology.

It's amazing. If this is a good thing, why do only women have to wear it? If this is defensible, then let's encourage men to wear them too.

What the hell are you talking about?

The Basque Country has been making moans about secession basically forever, and Catalonia has been rumbling about it for years.

What moans? The French Basque country? Nope, the ETA was a Spain-based movement, mostly. And Catalonia? You know we are not Spain right? Roussillon (the only area in France part of the historic Catalan lands) is not in the mood for secession from France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ope#France

[Jordkloden]

Bigotry against bigotry, we're fine with that. Being tolerant of bigots will not make them tolerant too.

Meanwhile, random people in the middle will get fucked from both ends! Sounds like fun.

One might even say that they're being........EIFFEL TOWERED!!!

[Nacesa Plana]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags

Sorry, but no. You fail to show any countries prohibiting me from wearing nazi uniforms specifically in a jewish quarter. I know some countries has a general ban on nazi symbols, but that's not what you were talking about since, as you pointed out, you could "wear a full Gestapo suit, by instance in a simulation wargame" - something which would be illegal where it's a general ban.

Try again.

So you admit you didn't read the link.

Austria

Austria strictly prohibits the public display and/or proliferation of all insignia/symbols, emblems, uniforms (full or partial), flags, etc., clearly associated with the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP, commonly known as the Nazi Party).

France

In France, it is illegal to display Nazi flags, uniforms and insignia in public, unless for the purpose of a historical film, show or spectacle

Germany

Germany strictly prohibits public display of Nazi symbols, such as the swastika and the SS logo, unless it is for historical purposes.

Hungary

Section 335 of the Act C of 2012 on the Criminal Code of Hungary regulates the "use of symbols of totalitarianism", including the swastika, the insignia of the SS, the arrow cross, the hammer and sickle, and the five-pointed red star.

And as you see, many countries banned displaying symbols of Nazism, unless you use them in a specific situation: on a film set, on stage in a theatre, in a war simulation game, ...

Now we fixed this one. Do you understand why some countries banned it?

Because there's a negative emotional association. In many European countries wearing a Nazi uniform in public would be considered as a provocation and it's very likely that some people will beat you.

Europe recently suffered from fundamental Muslim terrorism. A burkini is associated with these fundies. At such the burkini has a high negative emotional association. Wearing one in Europe in public on a beach is just a provocation, possible resulting in clashes.

And that's what some governments are trying to prevent.

A burkini is also dehumanizing women, they are women unfriendly and suppress them. They are similar as the burqa. A piece of clothing that's also forbidden in many European countries.

[Senkaku]

The suggestion was that some women might choose to, and their right to dress as they please shouldn't be taken away from them, actually. But please, continue misrepresenting the argument, I look forward to seeing your latest mental gymnastics. Simone Biles ain't got nothin' on you, Chess.

Who cares if some women might choose?

The overwhelmingly majority are enforced through systemic oppression within their communities, under a very patriarchal religion.

Should we perpetuate and even defend the active oppression of 99% in order to let the right of choice of 1%?

[Ohioan Territory]

Removing their dress does not remove their beliefs. Honestly, it probably strengthens them. This only causes more tension between Muslims and non-Muslims. I dislike this.

[Senkaku]

Europe recently suffered from fundamental Muslim terrorism. A birkini is associated with these fundies. At such the burkini has a high negative emotional association. Wearing one in Europe in public on a beach is just a provocation, possible resulting in clashes.

As terrible as the attacks in Europe have been, there's no equivalency between them and the Second World War, nor is there a symbolic equivalency between fucking burkinis and swastikas.

[Galloism]

Who are "they", the "reactionary elements"? The choice you have is ban or don't ban burkinis. You support banning them. This narrows freedom of religion and damages it. The alternative is not banning them, which does neither. It seems to me your Islamophobia is blinding you to the actual insignificance of the matter.



*cough*ALGERIA*cough*

They are those who will ideologically defend the burkini. Their views of women in society will leave much to be desired in women's rights. For an example of their victories, look to the previously secular Middle Eastern autocracies.

Did I mention Algeria? Did I even mention the Francophone world? I said France. Belgium is Francophone, and certainly not united.

Bullshit. France frequently attacks other religions while leaving catholicism alone, and it's not just muslims - Jehovah's Witnesses, for example.



Women's free choice is a hallmark of women's liberation. Women's lack of choice is against women's liberation.


Again, your bigoted fear of difference is leading you down the path of misogyny. You should rethink things.

Another cult.

They're all cults except good ol' catholicism, aren't they. But that's secular. It's just catholicism is the only one that qualifies for being not a cult.

And again, it's amazing that we leave Catholicism alone. Almost as if... We fought this battle with Catholicism before... And won... Almost as if French churches are deserted today...

Catholicism is the largest religion in France, and prohbiits contraception as a religious tenet.

Women's freedom includes their freedom from religious sexism, even when their society internalizes it into them.

No, you should rethink opinion polls, studies, and various reports of various actions.

You know what, you're right, and given Catholicism attempts to oppress women by prohibiting them from using contraception, I say we require by force of law that all catholic women take contraception, or they can be fined. We want to be consistent about our theories behind our laws.

I am lucid, someone is not.

Assertion assumes facts not in evidence. Twice.

[Chessmistress]

women like to dress so under the summer hot sun- that is against basic human biology.

Against basic human biology? You're in the fucking water. You're not boiling alive.

Question: are you against the burka outside water, because it would be - in such case - against basic human biology?

Answer: no, because it's still "a woman's choice" according your logic.

Therefore: your argument is invalid.

[Crurnlark]

{
check:id='crime'
if 'crime' class[HASVICTIM]
punishment=true
else
punishment=false
}

This is a bad idea.

[Olerand]

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?

Well, what if Jewish men are being pressured into wearing kippahs? It sets them apart and makes it more difficult for them to mesh with French culture.

Had we not fought Christianity, all these minorities would have had no rights. And if we don't banalize Islam, they won't have rights anymore either.

Banalize? Did you mean ban? In any case, justifying repression of one religion because of previous repression of another religion seems like a bullshit argument at best.

It's amazing. If this is a good thing, why do only women have to wear it? If this is defensible, then let's encourage men to wear them too.

...so, if you force both Muslim women AND Muslim men to wear them, it's acceptable? Your notions of freedom are frankly delusional.

What moans? The French Basque country? Nope, the ETA was a Spain-based movement, mostly. And Catalonia? You know we are not Spain right? Roussillon (the only area in France part of the historic Catalan lands) is not in the mood for secession from France.

*cough*ALGERIA*cough*


Also in general, it'd be great if you could define what you mean by "reactionary".

We should fight against that too. But, are they? I haven't heard of any rise in kippah wearing in France today, or in religiosity amongst Jews. I know that more are being discreet about being Jews, and many are leaving France now, the atmosphere after the Merah attacks in 2012 and then the kosher market attacks in November and all is apparently suffocating. Wonder why?

Banalize:http://www.dictionary.com/browse/banalize. To make banal, like Christianity and Judaism are in Europe today.

YES. If men would wear this, then I couldn't call it sexist. And after withstanding the heat of the summer in this, I am confident the Ulama will find themselves some fatwas out of them too.

I still don't understand. Algeria was considered a part of France, but clearly was not. In a referendum, a crushing majority of French voted to grant it independence and withdraw. They did not consider themselves French, and neither did we. The pieds noirs were not Metropolitan France.

Reactionary, attitudes of the past, oppressive attitudes that we are now attempting to move past.

Bigotry against bigotry, we're fine with that. Being tolerant of bigots will not make them tolerant too.

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

A meaningless quote. Especially when the other side will blind you anyway.

They are those who will ideologically defend the burkini. Their views of women in society will leave much to be desired in women's rights. For an example of their victories, look to the previously secular Middle Eastern autocracies.

Did I mention Algeria? Did I even mention the Francophone world? I said France. Belgium is Francophone, and certainly not united.

"we haven't had a civil war since the 16th century"
Algeria's coastal regions used to be categorized as a part of Metropolitan France, m8.

A decision of politicians from the Fourth Republic revoked by the French people in a referendum by 90,8%. The Algerian war is considered by no one to have been a civil war. The FLN never thought itself French, and it, and everyone else, clearly saw the war as a colonial war.

[Setgavarius]

But they don't
Do you know what a Burqa is
A Burqa is a traditional Afghan dress worn by women and I covers the face completely.outside Afghanistan,it is virtually none exisitant

You clearly have never been to Bankstown shopping centre in Sydney

You guys must have a lot of Afghans. In Ohio, I see more hijabs than anything else.

[Galloism]

The suggestion was that some women might choose to, and their right to dress as they please shouldn't be taken away from them, actually. But please, continue misrepresenting the argument, I look forward to seeing your latest mental gymnastics. Simone Biles ain't got nothin' on you, Chess.

Who cares if some women might choose?

Because women are basically children, and in order to liberate them, we have to order them regarding exactly what they must do.

You know... for freedom.

Should we perpetuate and even defend the active oppression of 99% in order to let the right of choice of 1%?

You and Olerand love false dilemmas don't you?

[New Grestin]

I say let em' do it.

If only for my continual entertainment, getting to see Muslim women finding interesting ways to get around their religion's laws.

It's amusing to see all the different methods they come up with.

[Olerand]

Bigotry against bigotry, we're fine with that. Being tolerant of bigots will not make them tolerant too.

Meanwhile, random people in the middle will get fucked from both ends! Sounds like fun.

Who are those people? Women who wear the burkini? They're not in the middle. Most French Muslim women do not wear the burkini.

Okay. At first I thought it was just the weird nationalism, but no, I see it clearly now, it's bigotry.

Eh, there's a bit of blind nationalism in there too, seeing as how he's so bent on defending every decision France makes, and claiming the Francosphere is much more peaceful and united than the Anglosphere.

Am I... Not writing in English? First, I never said Francosphere, you did. I said France. Second, what decision by France? The bans are municipal, I do not support them, and nor will the national courts. Literally everything in this post is wrong.

[Nacesa Plana]

Removing their dress does not remove their beliefs. Honestly, it probably strengthens them. This only causes more tension between Muslims and non-Muslims. I dislike this.

Not at all. Most Muslim women in the West don't wear a burkini. But the fundies might do it.

[Jordkloden]

Against basic human biology? You're in the fucking water. You're not boiling alive.

Question: are you against the burka outside water, because it would be - in such case - against basic human biology?

Answer: no, because it's still "a woman's choice" according your logic.

Therefore: your argument is invalid.

This is just pointless. We'll never agree. I don't wish to discuss such matters with you anymore.

[Ohioan Territory]

Removing their dress does not remove their beliefs. Honestly, it probably strengthens them. This only causes more tension between Muslims and non-Muslims. I dislike this.

Not at all. Most Muslim women in the West don't wear a burkini. But the fundies might do it.

Tension-creating or not, I think it's just better to give them the choice to wear it. Their choice of beachwear is not hurting anyone.

[Galloism]

Question: are you against the burka outside water, because it would be - in such case - against basic human biology?

Answer: no, because it's still "a woman's choice" according your logic.

Therefore: your argument is invalid.

This is just pointless. We'll never agree. I don't wish to discuss such matters with you anymore.

You know, I'm starting to think Chess and Olerand might be onto something.

You see, according to most Christian religions, women walking around in public naked is a form of lewd and loose conduct which can get them sent to hell. This is enforced by friends, family, and the public telling them they can burn in hell for this. In response, we need to counteract such misogyny by forcing all women to be naked at all times unless weather conditions make that impractical.

We should also do the same regarding premarital sex, where women can be sent to hell for engaging in premarital sex, and shamed by their friends, families, etc. Therefore, they should be forced to engage in premarital sex on a regular basis.

[Felrik]

Can believe this thread attracted the puppet master herself, chessmistress.

[Olerand]

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?


We're defending minorities' rights by fighting reactionary ideas. That's how we got all these minorities' rights in the first place, by fighting Christianity, as we do to Islam today. Had we not fought Christianity, all these minorities would have had no rights. And if we don't banalize Islam, they won't have rights anymore either.


It's amazing. If this is a good thing, why do only women have to wear it? If this is defensible, then let's encourage men to wear them too.

What moans? The French Basque country? Nope, the ETA was a Spain-based movement, mostly. And Catalonia? You know we are not Spain right? Roussillon (the only area in France part of the historic Catalan lands) is not in the mood for secession from France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ope#France

Which of those actually matter? Which have political representation? Popular support? Armed power?

I did not say there were no separatist movements, something that is clearly incorrect, if in Corsica alone. I said we are not under threat of secession.

They are those who will ideologically defend the burkini. Their views of women in society will leave much to be desired in women's rights. For an example of their victories, look to the previously secular Middle Eastern autocracies.

Did I mention Algeria? Did I even mention the Francophone world? I said France. Belgium is Francophone, and certainly not united.


Another cult.

They're all cults except good ol' catholicism, aren't they. But that's secular. It's just catholicism is the only one that qualifies for being not a cult.

And again, it's amazing that we leave Catholicism alone. Almost as if... We fought this battle with Catholicism before... And won... Almost as if French churches are deserted today...

Catholicism is the largest religion in France, and prohbiits contraception as a religious tenet.

Women's freedom includes their freedom from religious sexism, even when their society internalizes it into them.

No, you should rethink opinion polls, studies, and various reports of various actions.

You know what, you're right, and given Catholicism attempts to oppress women by prohibiting them from using contraception, I say we require by force of law that all catholic women take contraception, or they can be fined. We want to be consistent about our theories behind our laws.

I am lucid, someone is not.

Assertion assumes facts not in evidence. Twice.

There is no point in arguing this anymore. You've provided no proof of how we favor Catholicism, you just insist that we do. Anyway.

Yes, it is. However, a majority of French are irreligious. Catholics are the largest religion, and they are a minority. And it does! And that's bad! And our politicians have criticized it for that!

We cannot require them too, but we should encourage them. Teach them about contraception, provide it to them at an affordable price, make it free for students and the needy... And oh wow, we do all of that. And the rate of usage of contraceptions in France clearly means that at least a sizable minority of Catholics use them (more like a majority), because the rates are larger than the irrelegious rate is too.

EDIT: And before you give your witty little remark about how we don't force Catholics but we will force Muslims, Catholic Privilege Confirmed!!! I will remind you that the burqa is not banned in private, as we cannot ban it. Just as we cannot mandate the use of contraception.

[Felrik]

Can believe this thread attracted the puppet master herself, chessmistress.

[Setgavarius]

Can believe this thread attracted the puppet master herself, chessmistress.

Course it did.
I'm glad to see her around even if I don't fully agree with her on many things.