To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Galloism]

Secularism ≠ State Atheism

Where is the State Atheism? We have more mosques than ever.

Yeah. That's really misogynistic. You should feel shame at telling women what clothes they can and cannot wear because of your personal morals.



You legislating thought next? If France goes full thoughtcrime, that would be absurd.



In the real world, there are plenty of modern western first world countries that don't ban the burqa, and things are going fine.

But we do, that is what all nation-States do, legislate based on their morals.

But we shouldn't. It should be based on a good rule of law and a good functioning society, with a maximal interest in individual rights.

And we feel no shame for defending women/sexual/religious minorities' rights. None.

This thread clearly demonstrates you feel no shame at attacking women's rights either.

Let's not kid ourselves: That's what France has done here.

Well, of course, none of them are Egypt. But we all have growing Muslim populations. What is their vision for the nation? What are their values? Religious, sexual freedoms? Or otherwise?

Well, I've met quite a few muslim people over the years. Most of them just want to go to work, feed their families, and live a modern first world lifestyle.

[Senkaku]

Secularism ≠ State Atheism

Where is the State Atheism? We have more mosques than ever.

Here's a suggestion- why don't you ban the kippah?

[New haven america]

Secularism ≠ State Atheism

Where is the State Atheism? We have more mosques than ever.

Yeah. That's really misogynistic. You should feel shame at telling women what clothes they can and cannot wear because of your personal morals.



You legislating thought next? If France goes full thoughtcrime, that would be absurd.



In the real world, there are plenty of modern western first world countries that don't ban the burqa, and things are going fine.

But we do, that is what all nation-States do, legislate based on their morals. And we feel no shame for defending women/sexual/religious minorities' rights. None.

No, but we are concerned by them. Who suggested legislation to ban them? Although we do ban homophobic speech/actions, sexist ones, religiously discriminatory ones. Our hate speech/actions laws are stringent, like in much of Europe, and contrary to the English world's.

Well, of course, none of them are Egypt. But we all have growing Muslim populations. What is their vision for the nation? What are their values? Religious, sexual freedoms? Or otherwise?

So, you're defending minorities right by taking away minorities rights?

Yep, that makes perfect sense, 10/10 logic.

[Senkaku]

Well, I've met quite a few muslim people over the years. Most of them just want to go to work, feed their families, and live a modern first world lifestyle.

AND DESTROY FRANCE, THE LAST BASTION OF TRUE WESTERN CIVILIZATION, FROM WITHIN!!!!1

[Galloism]

No, because you provided no material to argue against, you just continued to contradict yourself, something you've been doing for multiple pages now.

Hopefully you'll be able to come up with something better than: "We French don't need that sexist attire here!"

"But I chose to wear this swimsuit."

"Nonsense, you are accepting and spreading misogyny and sexism buy wearing that!"

"How?"

"Because we said you are!"


I hope you can come up with a better argument in the future, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Right. And Christian women who refuse contraception and employment are liberated, and are making these decisions entirely by themselves. Sexism, like other discrimination, can never be internalized.

Compulsory contraception for all women.

Refuse contraception? That's a fine.

[Olerand]

Secularism ≠ State Atheism

^^^well said.

Fine with us. Freedom of religion, as understood by the English world, is very broad, too broad for the rest of the world.

Are you defending freedom of religion, or narrowing it? You're contradicting yourself all over the place here.

You legislating thought next? If France goes full thoughtcrime, that would be absurd.

"Monsieur, you were detected having thoughts that you might enjoy the most un-French of foods- le cheeseburger avec bacon. DO YOU DENY THESE CHARGES?"

Defending it from the reactionary elements. Because the alternative that they would inflict is, not a narrowing, but an elimination.

Fine with us. Freedom of religion, as understood by the English world, is very broad, too broad for the rest of the world. Scientology, for example, is a cult and is outright illegal in France. I believe Mormonism should meet the same fate. We value unity in our nation more so than the Anglo-Saxon world's understanding of factional and infighting "freedom of communities" or whatever.

I speak for the dominant view, that I can assure you, I am relaying the words of our politicians, elected by the majority's votes. I do not speak for the Trostkyists, however, who like to appease reactionary Islam for electoral goals, or the identitaires, who reject Muslims on ethnic grounds, that is true, though.

Oh yes, because Francosphere has such a wonderful history of peace and unity.

What is the Francosphere? France? We do. We've had a pretty good run since we started building the nation-State. We are now the only large European nation that is neither federalist nor threatened by secession, and we haven't had a civil war since the wars of religion in the 16th century.

[Chessmistress]

I understand why some would rather women in burkinis populate our beaches.

Sadly, I understand it too, perfectly: I would call it "misogyny under the guise of Feminism" - those kind of people use the same words we use, but they mean something very different: they endorse the "choice" of women who are under an enormous pressure by their communities and called names if they don't wear such dresses ALWAYS (because that's the point: it's not a choice, because it's ALWAYS).
The same people who would call the cops for "abuse against animals" if I would dress my dog in the same way during the summer, under the sun: they would say that the dog is suffering.
And their lack of honesty is absolutely clear when they suppose that "most" (or even ALL) women like to dress so under the summer hot sun- that is against basic human biology.

[New haven america]

No, because you provided no material to argue against, you just continued to contradict yourself, something you've been doing for multiple pages now.

Hopefully you'll be able to come up with something better than: "We French don't need that sexist attire here!"

"But I chose to wear this swimsuit."

"Nonsense, you are accepting and spreading misogyny and sexism buy wearing that!"

"How?"

"Because we said you are!"


I hope you can come up with a better argument in the future, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Right. And Christian women who refuse contraception and employment are liberated, and are making these decisions entirely by themselves. Sexism, like other discrimination, can never be internalized.

If they made that choice themselves, then yes, they are liberated.

Care to make any other useless points? Or are you gonna keep going with the blind nationalism shtick?

[Galloism]

^^^well said.


Are you defending freedom of religion, or narrowing it? You're contradicting yourself all over the place here.


"Monsieur, you were detected having thoughts that you might enjoy the most un-French of foods- le cheeseburger avec bacon. DO YOU DENY THESE CHARGES?"

Defending it from the reactionary elements. Because the alternative that they would inflict is, not a narrowing, but an elimination.

Oh yes, because Francosphere has such a wonderful history of peace and unity.

What is the Francosphere? France? We do. We've had a pretty good run since we started building the nation-State. We are now the only large European nation that is neither federalist nor threatened by secession, and we haven't had a civil war since the wars of religion in the 16th century.

What the hell are you talking about?

The Basque Country has been making moans about secession basically forever, and Catalonia has been rumbling about it for years.

[Jordkloden]

women like to dress so under the summer hot sun- that is against basic human biology.

Against basic human biology? You're in the fucking water. You're not boiling alive.

[Olerand]

Where is the State Atheism? We have more mosques than ever.


But we do, that is what all nation-States do, legislate based on their morals.

But we shouldn't. It should be based on a good rule of law and a good functioning society, with a maximal interest in individual rights.

And we feel no shame for defending women/sexual/religious minorities' rights. None.

This thread clearly demonstrates you feel no shame at attacking women's rights either.

Let's not kid ourselves: That's what France has done here.

Well, of course, none of them are Egypt. But we all have growing Muslim populations. What is their vision for the nation? What are their values? Religious, sexual freedoms? Or otherwise?

Well, I've met quite a few muslim people over the years. Most of them just want to go to work, feed their families, and live a modern first world lifestyle.

But that's not how that works. Implement that thought in the Muslim world and we will follow. End this streak of reactionary Islamic attitudes, and we will lift our bans and end our fights as well.

Again, when the burkini is a hallmark of women's liberation, what a time...

I know many, many Muslims too. They are irreligious, like I. There are more however, ones that I do not meet, and they have a view of how French society should be that I, and my Muslim friends, would not share.

[Senkaku]

^^^well said.


Are you defending freedom of religion, or narrowing it? You're contradicting yourself all over the place here.


"Monsieur, you were detected having thoughts that you might enjoy the most un-French of foods- le cheeseburger avec bacon. DO YOU DENY THESE CHARGES?"

Defending it from the reactionary elements. Because the alternative that they would inflict is, not a narrowing, but an elimination.

Who are "they", the "reactionary elements"? The choice you have is ban or don't ban burkinis. You support banning them. This narrows freedom of religion and damages it. The alternative is not banning them, which does neither. It seems to me your Islamophobia is blinding you to the actual insignificance of the matter.

Oh yes, because Francosphere has such a wonderful history of peace and unity.

What is the Francosphere? France? We do. We've had a pretty good run since we started building the nation-State. We are now the only large European nation that is neither federalist nor threatened by secession, and we haven't had a civil war since the wars of religion in the 16th century.

*cough*ALGERIA*cough*

[Galloism]

But we shouldn't. It should be based on a good rule of law and a good functioning society, with a maximal interest in individual rights.



This thread clearly demonstrates you feel no shame at attacking women's rights either.

Let's not kid ourselves: That's what France has done here.



Well, I've met quite a few muslim people over the years. Most of them just want to go to work, feed their families, and live a modern first world lifestyle.

But that's not how that works. Implement that thought in the Muslim world and we will follow. End this streak of reactionary Islamic attitudes, and we will lift our bans and end our fights as well.

Bullshit. France frequently attacks other religions while leaving catholicism alone, and it's not just muslims - Jehovah's Witnesses, for example.

Again, when the burkini is a hallmark of women's liberation, what a time...

Women's free choice is a hallmark of women's liberation. Women's lack of choice is against women's liberation.

[I know many, many Muslims too. They are irreligious, like I. There are more however, ones that I do not meet, and they have a view of how French society should be that I, and my Muslim friends, would not share.

Again, your bigoted fear of difference is leading you down the path of misogyny. You should rethink things.

[Senkaku]

And their lack of honesty is absolutely clear when they suppose that "most" (or even ALL) women like to dress so

The suggestion was that some women might choose to, and their right to dress as they please shouldn't be taken away from them, actually. But please, continue misrepresenting the argument, I look forward to seeing your latest mental gymnastics. Simone Biles ain't got nothin' on you, Chess.

[Olerand]

Where is the State Atheism? We have more mosques than ever.

Here's a suggestion- why don't you ban the kippah?

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?

Where is the State Atheism? We have more mosques than ever.


But we do, that is what all nation-States do, legislate based on their morals. And we feel no shame for defending women/sexual/religious minorities' rights. None.

No, but we are concerned by them. Who suggested legislation to ban them? Although we do ban homophobic speech/actions, sexist ones, religiously discriminatory ones. Our hate speech/actions laws are stringent, like in much of Europe, and contrary to the English world's.

Well, of course, none of them are Egypt. But we all have growing Muslim populations. What is their vision for the nation? What are their values? Religious, sexual freedoms? Or otherwise?

So, you're defending minorities right by taking away minorities rights?

Yep, that makes perfect sense, 10/10 logic.

We're defending minorities' rights by fighting reactionary ideas. That's how we got all these minorities' rights in the first place, by fighting Christianity, as we do to Islam today. Had we not fought Christianity, all these minorities would have had no rights. And if we don't banalize Islam, they won't have rights anymore either.

I understand why some would rather women in burkinis populate our beaches.

Sadly, I understand it too, perfectly: I would call it "misogyny under the guise of Feminism" - those kind of people use the same words we use, but they mean something very different: they endorse the "choice" of women who are under an enormous pressure by their communities and called names if they don't wear such dresses ALWAYS (because that's the point: it's not a choice, because it's ALWAYS).
The same people who would call the cops for "abuse against animals" if I would dress my dog in the same way during the summer, under the sun: they would say that the dog is suffering.
And their lack of honesty is absolutely clear when they suppose that "most" (or even ALL) women like to dress so under the summer hot sun- that is against basic human biology.

It's amazing. If this is a good thing, why do only women have to wear it? If this is defensible, then let's encourage men to wear them too.

Defending it from the reactionary elements. Because the alternative that they would inflict is, not a narrowing, but an elimination.


What is the Francosphere? France? We do. We've had a pretty good run since we started building the nation-State. We are now the only large European nation that is neither federalist nor threatened by secession, and we haven't had a civil war since the wars of religion in the 16th century.

What the hell are you talking about?

The Basque Country has been making moans about secession basically forever, and Catalonia has been rumbling about it for years.

What moans? The French Basque country? Nope, the ETA was a Spain-based movement, mostly. And Catalonia? You know we are not Spain right? Roussillon (the only area in France part of the historic Catalan lands) is not in the mood for secession from France.

[The Princes of the Universe]

If a fucking swimsuit endangers your country's national fabric, perhaps that country doesn't deserve to exist.

[Jordkloden]

Here's a suggestion- why don't you ban the kippah?

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?

Okay. At first I thought it was just the weird nationalism, but no, I see it clearly now, it's bigotry.

[Olerand]

Defending it from the reactionary elements. Because the alternative that they would inflict is, not a narrowing, but an elimination.

Who are "they", the "reactionary elements"? The choice you have is ban or don't ban burkinis. You support banning them. This narrows freedom of religion and damages it. The alternative is not banning them, which does neither. It seems to me your Islamophobia is blinding you to the actual insignificance of the matter.

What is the Francosphere? France? We do. We've had a pretty good run since we started building the nation-State. We are now the only large European nation that is neither federalist nor threatened by secession, and we haven't had a civil war since the wars of religion in the 16th century.

*cough*ALGERIA*cough*

They are those who will ideologically defend the burkini. Their views of women in society will leave much to be desired in women's rights. For an example of their victories, look to the previously secular Middle Eastern autocracies.

Did I mention Algeria? Did I even mention the Francophone world? I said France. Belgium is Francophone, and certainly not united.

But that's not how that works. Implement that thought in the Muslim world and we will follow. End this streak of reactionary Islamic attitudes, and we will lift our bans and end our fights as well.

Bullshit. France frequently attacks other religions while leaving catholicism alone, and it's not just muslims - Jehovah's Witnesses, for example.

Again, when the burkini is a hallmark of women's liberation, what a time...

Women's free choice is a hallmark of women's liberation. Women's lack of choice is against women's liberation.

[I know many, many Muslims too. They are irreligious, like I. There are more however, ones that I do not meet, and they have a view of how French society should be that I, and my Muslim friends, would not share.

Again, your bigoted fear of difference is leading you down the path of misogyny. You should rethink things.

Another cult. And again, it's amazing that we leave Catholicism alone. Almost as if... We fought this battle with Catholicism before... And won... Almost as if French churches are deserted today...

Women's freedom includes their freedom from religious sexism, even when their society internalizes it into them.

No, you should rethink opinion polls, studies, and various reports of various actions. I am lucid, someone is not.

[Chessmistress]

So, you're defending minorities right by taking away minorities rights?

Yep, that makes perfect sense, 10/10 logic.

Tah dah
Catched
Hence why we're seeing people defending a very misogynist and absolutely patriarchal imposition on women.
Minorities have the right to oppress women, it seems.

I already said that intersectionalism sounds good and have some good aspects but can be very dangerous if it's valued too much.

[Senkaku]

Here's a suggestion- why don't you ban the kippah?

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?

Well, what if Jewish men are being pressured into wearing kippahs? It sets them apart and makes it more difficult for them to mesh with French culture.

Had we not fought Christianity, all these minorities would have had no rights. And if we don't banalize Islam, they won't have rights anymore either.

Banalize? Did you mean ban? In any case, justifying repression of one religion because of previous repression of another religion seems like a bullshit argument at best.

It's amazing. If this is a good thing, why do only women have to wear it? If this is defensible, then let's encourage men to wear them too.

...so, if you force both Muslim women AND Muslim men to wear them, it's acceptable? Your notions of freedom are frankly delusional.

What moans? The French Basque country? Nope, the ETA was a Spain-based movement, mostly. And Catalonia? You know we are not Spain right? Roussillon (the only area in France part of the historic Catalan lands) is not in the mood for secession from France.

*cough*ALGERIA*cough*


Also in general, it'd be great if you could define what you mean by "reactionary".

[Olerand]

If a fucking swimsuit endangers your country's national fabric, perhaps that country doesn't deserve to exist.

The swimsuit, like the bans, is irrelevant. The mentality propagating it isn't. Who in Nasser's Egypt would have imagined Egypt today? Who would have thought that the Islamists would win the Gramscian war so thoroughly?

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?

Okay. At first I thought it was just the weird nationalism, but no, I see it clearly now, it's bigotry.

Bigotry against bigotry, we're fine with that. Being tolerant of bigots will not make them tolerant too.

[Jordkloden]

Bigotry against bigotry, we're fine with that. Being tolerant of bigots will not make them tolerant too.

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

[New haven america]

What ideology is behind the kippah? You filthy non-Jews are not as good as us Jewish men who wear this on our heads? Non-Jews sin by not wearing it? Non-Jews who don't wear it deserve derision?

Okay. At first I thought it was just the weird nationalism, but no, I see it clearly now, it's bigotry.

Eh, there's a bit of blind nationalism in there too, seeing as how he's so bent on defending every decision France makes, and claiming the Francosphere is much more peaceful and united than the Anglosphere.

[Setgavarius]

If a fucking swimsuit endangers your country's national fabric, perhaps that country doesn't deserve to exist.

That's a bit harsh of a judgment on France.
They're more afraid of the quasi-accomodating Islamonutbaggery that apparently invented the burkini.
I disagree that banning the clothing is necessary but I agree with the sentiment behind it.

[Senkaku]

Who are "they", the "reactionary elements"? The choice you have is ban or don't ban burkinis. You support banning them. This narrows freedom of religion and damages it. The alternative is not banning them, which does neither. It seems to me your Islamophobia is blinding you to the actual insignificance of the matter.



*cough*ALGERIA*cough*

They are those who will ideologically defend the burkini. Their views of women in society will leave much to be desired in women's rights. For an example of their victories, look to the previously secular Middle Eastern autocracies.

Did I mention Algeria? Did I even mention the Francophone world? I said France. Belgium is Francophone, and certainly not united.

"we haven't had a civil war since the 16th century"
Algeria's coastal regions used to be categorized as a part of Metropolitan France, m8.