To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Liriena]

Good thing I'm not a liberal. Also, I believe in people's inaliable right to wear whatever the hell they want. So long as the women wearing burkinis are wearing them because they genuinely, personally choose to, I'm okay with it.

You would describe yourself as?

*points to sig*

Green socialist.

And I do not, I believe there are certain values that a nation holds, and that certain actions and attitudes go against those values, and that one should find their personal comfort in another nation in that case.

And I don't give a crap about 'national values', specially not in terms of excluding a harmless type of attire just because it triggers your French sensibilities.

[Olerand]

You would describe yourself as?

*points to sig*

Green socialist.

And I do not, I believe there are certain values that a nation holds, and that certain actions and attitudes go against those values, and that one should find their personal comfort in another nation in that case.

And I don't give a crap about 'national values', specially not in terms of excluding a harmless type of attire just because it triggers your French sensibilities.

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

Anyway, I and the French nation disagree, and we will enforce our values in our nation. Namely, women's rights, freedom of sexual orientation, freedom of religion/lack thereof, etc. Awful stuff I know, I understand why some would rather women in burkinis populate our beaches.

[Galloism]

Yes, the French ideology of being anti-non-catholic-religion is at conflict with an ideology where a non-catholic-religion is important.

And there's no non-intolerant ones, FYI.

That's so true, we hate all religions except for Catholicism, which we love. That's why from 1881 to 1940, our schoolteachers were known for the attitude of "bouffer du curé", or detestation of priests. That's why we spent the better part of two centuries in conflict with the Church, expelling its organizations and denigrating its representatives/representations. We love Catholics. Always have, always will. That's why most French are now out of the Catholic religion, we love it so much, we want to love it from the outside too.

Non-intolerant what? Religions?

And you still completely ignored the rest. Who in Nasser's Egypt would have imagined Egypt would look like this in the future? Who in the relatively secular Middle East in the 1960s thought they would "progress" into what they considered to be attitudes of the past?

Why does it have to be intolerance type A or intolerance type B?

This is a false dilemma.

[Liriena]

*points to sig*

Green socialist.


And I don't give a crap about 'national values', specially not in terms of excluding a harmless type of attire just because it triggers your French sensibilities.

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

I defend a woman's right to wear whatever she wants without being discriminated on the basis of her faith.

Anyway, I and the French nation disagree, and we will do in our nation as we please.

Good for you. Have a cookie. *gives cookie*

[Olerand]

That's so true, we hate all religions except for Catholicism, which we love. That's why from 1881 to 1940, our schoolteachers were known for the attitude of "bouffer du curé", or detestation of priests. That's why we spent the better part of two centuries in conflict with the Church, expelling its organizations and denigrating its representatives/representations. We love Catholics. Always have, always will. That's why most French are now out of the Catholic religion, we love it so much, we want to love it from the outside too.

Non-intolerant what? Religions?

And you still completely ignored the rest. Who in Nasser's Egypt would have imagined Egypt would look like this in the future? Who in the relatively secular Middle East in the 1960s thought they would "progress" into what they considered to be attitudes of the past?

Why does it have to be intolerance type A or intolerance type B?

This is a false dilemma.

Because when intolerance B dominates your cultural understanding, as it does in the Middle East and across the rest of the Muslim world, all other intolerances, or tolerances, will be outlawed. They don't pussyfoot around like we do, human rights/women's rights/sexual and religious minorities' rights mean little to them.

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

I defend a woman's right to wear whatever she wants without being discriminated on the basis of her faith.

Anyway, I and the French nation disagree, and we will do in our nation as we please.

Good for you. Have a cookie. *gives cookie*

And thus will defend an item of clothing which is prescribed out of a sexist and misogynistic view of women and their relation to society.

I don't like cookies, but thanks anyway.

[Galloism]

Why does it have to be intolerance type A or intolerance type B?

This is a false dilemma.

Because when intolerance B dominates your cultural understanding,

Intolerance B does not dominate the cultural understanding of France - full stop. Intolerance A does.

[New haven america]

How can it be sexist and misogynistic if it's their choice to wear them?

Answer: It's not, you're just defending a stupid and irrational decision your country has made, even if it's just on a municipal level. You're defending a misogynistic and sexist decision by claiming to be fighting against sexism and misogyny. Stop contradicting yourself.

Because, as I have said throughout this thread, women can make a choice influenced by their families, milieu, culture, religion, and that choice, while made by women, is based on sexist and misogynistic attitudes and ideas.

I will reference my first post again:

I entirely agree. It is incredible that those who will fight for women's rights when Christian men try to take them away will throw those same women under the bus when Muslim men want to do the same. The idea, the justification behind the burkini is nothing but misogynistic. The same goes for all religious coverings. The hijab/burkini/niqab/burqa etc. are all prescribed to women because an uncovered woman who is seen by a man who lusts after her has herself committed a sin! A sin, for a man being a lech! And as the Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt showed, uncovered and covered women will never be safe when that mentality rises to power, as uncovered women who were assaulted on the streets of Egypt in the sexual assault pandemic that followed the revolution were blamed for their immodesty, and covered women were blamed for being outside!

Muhammad never even called for this. In the Quran, the only first-person source of him, he prescribes covering the breasts and genitals, which while also patriarchal is a moderate demand. Only in the Ahadith, written down 200 years after his death, is the veil and all of that even mentioned. And then that idea is interpreted by the all-male Ulama, the closest thing Islam has to a clerical body, as being the hijab/niqab/burqa etc. depending on their branch. Not a single woman had an input in any of this! What kind of woman would prescribe these coverings in the heat of Arabia to women, and not to men too? What un-indoctrinated woman is so misogynistic?

It is pathetic how readily some will throw women's rights under the Islamist train, and it's sad.

I remember watching a clip of that stupid comedy-information show that John whatever used to host with a new host and a veiled woman talking about the hijab. And she describes the hijab as her "privatizing" her sexuality and attractiveness so that men will pay attention to her intellect rather than her looks... And the host and the fools watching him clapped for her as if this was some amazing idea, some good thing!

Why should a woman privatize anything for men to pay attention to what she is saying and not her hairstyle, of all things? Why should women have to cover up for men to take them seriously? And why would an ostensibly, a supposedly, an erroneously self-described liberal man and his audience clap for such an idiotic idea? Would they have clapped if a Christian woman had said the same?

The premise behind the existence of the burkini etc. is sexist and misogynistic. Women making this choice of their "own volition", at best because they don't want to anger God (the violence of such an idea), and at worst because they don't want to anger their family/society/culture, does not make it an actual choice devoid of pressure and internalized sexism.

You can keep contradicting yourself all you want, it still won't make any sense, no matter how much you try.

Your country did something that's sexist, idiotic, and misogynistic, there's no way you can defend that.

[Wallenburg]

I see. You know, short-shorts, sandals, fedoras, and tank tops are all indefensible. How about we ban those too?

What is the misogynistic ideological perspective behind them? Fashion-wise, I know they are, and I am all for societally discouraging them, they are ugly EDIT: Except for Greek style sandals, and in certain locales, which I will tolerate. What image of women do they negatively promote? Do women sin by inciting lust when not wearing them? Do they elicit sexual harassment? What's going on?

Is there a reason that they must be inherently "misogynistic" in order to be banned? They are indefensible. That is all.

[Olerand]

Because when intolerance B dominates your cultural understanding,

Intolerance B does not dominate the cultural understanding of France - full stop. Intolerance A does.

We have a growing Muslim population. We would like them to not have an Islamists' understanding of the world, an unfortunate factor that Muslim citizens present in other European countries share with them. We are not like Egypt, and would like that our Muslims not want to be like Egypt either. We can do that only by fighting conservative and reactionary Islam. Accepting the burkini and its view of women is not fighting reactionary and conservative Islam, it is appeasing it. And like in Egypt, our Muslim citizens will have a warped view of women and their rights in our society, which will cause problems.

[Olerand]

Because, as I have said throughout this thread, women can make a choice influenced by their families, milieu, culture, religion, and that choice, while made by women, is based on sexist and misogynistic attitudes and ideas.

I will reference my first post again:


The premise behind the existence of the burkini etc. is sexist and misogynistic. Women making this choice of their "own volition", at best because they don't want to anger God (the violence of such an idea), and at worst because they don't want to anger their family/society/culture, does not make it an actual choice devoid of pressure and internalized sexism.

You can keep contradicting yourself all you want, it still won't make any sense, no matter how much you try.

Your country did something that's sexist, idiotic, and misogynistic, there's no way you can defend that.

Oh, no argument. Ok, moving on.

What is the misogynistic ideological perspective behind them? Fashion-wise, I know they are, and I am all for societally discouraging them, they are ugly EDIT: Except for Greek style sandals, and in certain locales, which I will tolerate. What image of women do they negatively promote? Do women sin by inciting lust when not wearing them? Do they elicit sexual harassment? What's going on?

Is there a reason that they must be inherently "misogynistic" in order to be banned? They are indefensible. That is all.

Yes, being ugly is not against French values. This misogynistic view of women is.

[Galloism]

Intolerance B does not dominate the cultural understanding of France - full stop. Intolerance A does.

We have a growing Muslim population.

Most muslim people do not wear the burqa - especially after a generation or two in a modern western country.

You're using a form of bigoted immigrant fear to justify misogyny. You should stop.

[Olerand]

We have a growing Muslim population.

Most muslim people do not wear the burqa - especially after a generation or two in a modern western country.

You're using a form of bigoted immigrant fear to justify misogyny. You should stop.

I am fully aware that no Muslim woman wears the burqa in France, it is after all, illegal. My contention is with the misogynistic idea that invented the burqa or the burkini, not the burqa as in the cloth, which I am not addressing, it is already illegal in France. And, do you have the opinion polls or studies or incidents to show that Muslim communities in France are for women's rights, gay rights, the right to leave Islam, etc? Because there are some to the contrary, and we do, after all, live in this world, the real one, not another one.

[PaNTuXIa]

The bans are irrelevant, they will most likely be struck down by the courts. These are municipal bans, not national ones. The burkini is indefensible, especially by self-proclaimed liberals. That is all.

Good thing I'm not a liberal. Also, I believe in people's inaliable right to wear whatever the hell they want. So long as the women wearing burkinis are wearing them because they genuinely, personally choose to, I'm okay with it.

Really? What are you, then? I doubt a conservative would have a puppy in a sunny field as their nation's flag.

[Senkaku]

*points to sig*

Green socialist.


And I don't give a crap about 'national values', specially not in terms of excluding a harmless type of attire just because it triggers your French sensibilities.

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

Anyway, I and the French nation disagree, and we will enforce our values in our nation. Namely, women's rights, freedom of sexual orientation, freedom of religion/lack thereof, etc. Awful stuff I know, I understand why some would rather women in burkinis populate our beaches.

You're actively damaging freedom of religion by doing this, however.

Also, I find it amusing that you feel you can speak for the entirety of France.

[PaNTuXIa]

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

Anyway, I and the French nation disagree, and we will enforce our values in our nation. Namely, women's rights, freedom of sexual orientation, freedom of religion/lack thereof, etc. Awful stuff I know, I understand why some would rather women in burkinis populate our beaches.

You're actively damaging freedom of religion by doing this, however.

Also, I find it amusing that you feel you can speak for the entirety of France.

How are we damaging freedom of religion by allowing this?

[The Princes of the Universe]

The brouhaha over this non-issue is ridiculous. Get a grip, France.

[Jordkloden]

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

Secularism ≠ State Atheism

[Galloism]

Most muslim people do not wear the burqa - especially after a generation or two in a modern western country.

You're using a form of bigoted immigrant fear to justify misogyny. You should stop.

I am fully aware that no Muslim woman wears the burqa in France, it is after all, illegal.

Yeah. That's really misogynistic. You should feel shame at telling women what clothes they can and cannot wear because of your personal morals.

And, do you have the opinion polls or studies or incidents to show that Muslim communities in France are for women's rights, gay rights, the right to leave Islam, etc?

You legislating thought next? If France goes full thoughtcrime, that would be absurd.

Because there are some to the contrary, and we do, after all, live in this world, the real one, not another one.

In the real world, there are plenty of modern western first world countries that don't ban the burqa, and things are going fine.

[Senkaku]

You're actively damaging freedom of religion by doing this, however.

Also, I find it amusing that you feel you can speak for the entirety of France.

How are we damaging freedom of religion by allowing this?

Damaging freedom of religion by specifically banning Muslim women from wearing full-body swimsuits, even if they want to. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, full-body swimsuits that aren't marketed as burkinis but that are more or less the same thing are still legal in France- the difference appears to be how Muslim the wearer is.

[Olerand]

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

Anyway, I and the French nation disagree, and we will enforce our values in our nation. Namely, women's rights, freedom of sexual orientation, freedom of religion/lack thereof, etc. Awful stuff I know, I understand why some would rather women in burkinis populate our beaches.

You're actively damaging freedom of religion by doing this, however.

Also, I find it amusing that you feel you can speak for the entirety of France.

Fine with us. Freedom of religion, as understood by the English world, is very broad, too broad for the rest of the world. Scientology, for example, is a cult and is outright illegal in France. I believe Mormonism should meet the same fate. We value unity in our nation more so than the Anglo-Saxon world's understanding of factional and infighting "freedom of communities" or whatever.

I speak for the dominant view, that I can assure you, I am relaying the words of our politicians, elected by the majority's votes. I do not speak for the Trostkyists, however, who like to appease reactionary Islam for electoral goals, or the identitaires, who reject Muslims on ethnic grounds, that is true, though.

[New haven america]

You can keep contradicting yourself all you want, it still won't make any sense, no matter how much you try.

Your country did something that's sexist, idiotic, and misogynistic, there's no way you can defend that.

Oh, no argument. Ok, moving on.

Is there a reason that they must be inherently "misogynistic" in order to be banned? They are indefensible. That is all.

Yes, being ugly is not against French values. This misogynistic view of women is.

No, because you provided no material to argue against, you just continued to contradict yourself, something you've been doing for multiple pages now.

Hopefully you'll be able to come up with something better than: "We French don't need that sexist attire here!"

"But I chose to wear this swimsuit."

"Nonsense, you are accepting and spreading misogyny and sexism buy wearing that!"

"How?"

"Because we said you are!"


I hope you can come up with a better argument in the future, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Olerand]

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

Secularism ≠ State Atheism

Where is the State Atheism? We have more mosques than ever.

I am fully aware that no Muslim woman wears the burqa in France, it is after all, illegal.

Yeah. That's really misogynistic. You should feel shame at telling women what clothes they can and cannot wear because of your personal morals.

And, do you have the opinion polls or studies or incidents to show that Muslim communities in France are for women's rights, gay rights, the right to leave Islam, etc?

You legislating thought next? If France goes full thoughtcrime, that would be absurd.

Because there are some to the contrary, and we do, after all, live in this world, the real one, not another one.

In the real world, there are plenty of modern western first world countries that don't ban the burqa, and things are going fine.

But we do, that is what all nation-States do, legislate based on their morals. And we feel no shame for defending women/sexual/religious minorities' rights. None.

No, but we are concerned by them. Who suggested legislation to ban them? Although we do ban homophobic speech/actions, sexist ones, religiously discriminatory ones. Our hate speech/actions laws are stringent, like in much of Europe, and contrary to the English world's.

Well, of course, none of them are Egypt. But we all have growing Muslim populations. What is their vision for the nation? What are their values? Religious, sexual freedoms? Or otherwise?

[Senkaku]

For secularism and women's rights, but will defend the burkini.

Secularism ≠ State Atheism

^^^well said.

Fine with us. Freedom of religion, as understood by the English world, is very broad, too broad for the rest of the world.

Are you defending freedom of religion, or narrowing it? You're contradicting yourself all over the place here.

And, do you have the opinion polls or studies or incidents to show that Muslim communities in France are for women's rights, gay rights, the right to leave Islam, etc?

You legislating thought next? If France goes full thoughtcrime, that would be absurd.

"Monsieur, you were detected having thoughts that you might enjoy the most un-French of foods- le cheeseburger avec bacon. DO YOU DENY THESE CHARGES?"

[New haven america]

You're actively damaging freedom of religion by doing this, however.

Also, I find it amusing that you feel you can speak for the entirety of France.

Fine with us. Freedom of religion, as understood by the English world, is very broad, too broad for the rest of the world. Scientology, for example, is a cult and is outright illegal in France. I believe Mormonism should meet the same fate. We value unity in our nation more so than the Anglo-Saxon world's understanding of factional and infighting "freedom of communities" or whatever.

I speak for the dominant view, that I can assure you, I am relaying the words of our politicians, elected by the majority's votes. I do not speak for the Trostkyists, however, who like to appease reactionary Islam for electoral goals, or the identitaires, who reject Muslims on ethnic grounds, that is true, though.

Oh yes, because Francosphere has such a wonderful history of peace and unity.

[Olerand]

Oh, no argument. Ok, moving on.


Yes, being ugly is not against French values. This misogynistic view of women is.

No, because you provided no material to argue against, you just continued to contradict yourself, something you've been doing for multiple pages now.

Hopefully you'll be able to come up with something better than: "We French don't need that sexist attire here!"

"But I chose to wear this swimsuit."

"Nonsense, you are accepting and spreading misogyny and sexism buy wearing that!"

"How?"

"Because we said you are!"


I hope you can come up with a better argument in the future, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Right. And Christian women who refuse contraception and employment are liberated, and are making these decisions entirely by themselves. Sexism, like other discrimination, can never be internalized.