To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Galloism]

So in this case, since society says women can't walk around shirtless but men can, and this is sexist, can we ban women from wearing shirts in public?

What society? Not all societies are similar. We're not America, nudism is quite tolerated in continental Europe, women being uncovered where men are is also tolerated. Most French beaches will allow women to go topless. Toplessness for both genders in towns and streets is regulated by municipal orders, but feminists in France are fighting for the removal of discriminatory regulations today, as they should.

It's not enough to remove the regulations though, you must ban shirts for women.

They don't have a real choice, you see, because society says they can't be shirtless in public. Therefore we need to free them from that restriction and ban shirts in public places.

[Galloism]

I always liked mennonites. Sweet folks.

They also have the best lettuce ever. They come to our farmer's market and sell vegetables and it's basically the best stuff ever.

It's like organic veg, but a billionth the price!

Sort of, yeah. We used to have an Amish couple that would come in with horse and buggy, but I think their community merged with one in Missouri, so if we want Amish stuff, we have to go there.

Which they have the best quilts. You just can't buy that kind of quality in a store.

I always liked mennonites. Sweet folks.

They also have the best lettuce ever. They come to our farmer's market and sell vegetables and it's basically the best stuff ever.

Mennonites creep me out.

Aww, that's too bad. They're sweet folk.

Completely wrong biblically, but sweet nonetheless.

[Olerand]

Assyrian veil coverings are not the point of debate here though, are they? Nor Greek, nor Roman my husband owns me veils.

It sort of undercuts the argument that burqas were invented to oppress women though.

At the very most, they were adopted with that purpose after having been invented long before as a symbol of high status.

But we're not discussing Assyrian, Greek, or Roman reasons for coverign up. But Islamic ones. That reason is clear.

Mandated by men in the religion in ancient Israel, and no such thing like the burqa existed in ancient Greece. Veils were common in some ritualistic practices. Not in everyday life.

Perhaps. A sad, and very bad attitude towards healthy living with oneself, however, and certainly not something to be encouraged or defended, but helped to be free from.

Nice "helping" you're trying to do. Here, let me "help" you with your drug problem too, by locking you in jail for 30 years. That should free you.

The bans are illegal as I said they were, and they were punishable by verbalization and a 30 Euro fine.

Well, if you'd read the article I gave you, you might know. Believe it or not, some people don't approach life the same way you do.I did. Here's why: It is a “personal choice” and a way to assert her identity and show her devotion to her Muslim faith. She wears it to be a good Muslim. Now, why must women cover up to show their devotion to Islam? Why not men?

Some Muslims embrace the burka for the same reason Mennonites in the States dress like something out of the 17th century. Because Abrahamic religions (and most cultures, for that matter) have a standard of modesty that varies in interpretation and is usually more restrictive for women than for men.

Ding-Ding-Ding. Not a good thing. They do, and it's not good! Wow, good, we agree on that I presume?

Mandated by men in the religion in ancient Israel, and no such thing like the burqa existed in ancient Greece. Veils were common in some ritualistic practices. Not in everyday life.

Greece was actually horrid on the issue of women's rights.

"When someone inquired why they took their girls into public places unveiled, but their married women veiled, he said, 'Because the girls have to find husbands, and the married women have to keep to those who have them!'"

Indeed it was, women were property and quite despised by intellectuals, but not through this manner.

[Olerand]

What society? Not all societies are similar. We're not America, nudism is quite tolerated in continental Europe, women being uncovered where men are is also tolerated. Most French beaches will allow women to go topless. Toplessness for both genders in towns and streets is regulated by municipal orders, but feminists in France are fighting for the removal of discriminatory regulations today, as they should.

It's not enough to remove the regulations though, you must ban shirts for women.

They don't have a real choice, you see, because society says they can't be shirtless in public. Therefore we need to free them from that restriction and ban shirts in public places.

No we mustn't, as we did not ban the burkini. The burqa covers the face, the shirt does not. So if anything, a shirt is a burkini (not really, but still), not a burqa anyway.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yeah I kind of assumed they were Amish-ish, and Googled and realised they aren't.

Don't have a clue what they actually stand for though (except for rejecting all forms of public service).

[Conserative Morality]

Ding-Ding-Ding. Not a good thing. They do, and it's not good! Wow, good, we agree on that I presume?

Where we disagree is that people who follow those standards are oppressing themselves a la Muslims with burkas.

Indeed it was, women were property and quite despised by intellectuals, but not through this manner.

... I just gave you a quote regarding the veiling of (married) women in public in order to control them and keep them to their husbands.

How is that different from the burka.

[Galloism]

It sort of undercuts the argument that burqas were invented to oppress women though.

At the very most, they were adopted with that purpose after having been invented long before as a symbol of high status.

But we're not discussing Assyrian, Greek, or Roman reasons for coverign up. But Islamic ones. That reason is clear.

I'm talking about this:

I love how you treat women like they have no agency. It's very... old world.

I've already discussed agency before. But I also believe in internalizing sexism and misogyny. You retain agency, even if you internalize bad ideas. I fundamentally do not believe a woman would have invented the Islamic coverings had they not been invented by men 200 years after the death of Muhammad. I do not believe a woman can be so self-loathing.

Now, we've established that they weren't invented 200 years after Mohammed's death. They were invented before anyone ever heard about Mohammed in a period in which we have sparse records, and given they were (apparently) invented as a symbol of high status, it may very well have been invented by a woman. There's really no way to know for sure.

[Olerand]

Ding-Ding-Ding. Not a good thing. They do, and it's not good! Wow, good, we agree on that I presume?

Where we disagree is that people who follow those standards are oppressing themselves a la Muslims with burkas.

Indeed it was, women were property and quite despised by intellectuals, but not through this manner.

... I just gave you a quote regarding the veiling of (married) women in public in order to control them and keep them to their husbands.

How is that different from the burka.

In ancient Greece? I know some women wore hair veils in ancient Rome for this reason, did they in Greece too? And again, how is this relevant?

[Olerand]

But we're not discussing Assyrian, Greek, or Roman reasons for coverign up. But Islamic ones. That reason is clear.

I'm talking about this:

I've already discussed agency before. But I also believe in internalizing sexism and misogyny. You retain agency, even if you internalize bad ideas. I fundamentally do not believe a woman would have invented the Islamic coverings had they not been invented by men 200 years after the death of Muhammad. I do not believe a woman can be so self-loathing.

Now, we've established that they weren't invented 200 years after Mohammed's death. They were invented before anyone ever heard about Mohammed in a period in which we have sparse records, and given they were (apparently) invented as a symbol of high status, it may very well have been invented by a woman. There's really no way to know for sure.

Did women invent any of those coverings? We will never know. What we do know is that no woman invented the Islamic coverings, nor had a say in it.

[Galloism]

It's not enough to remove the regulations though, you must ban shirts for women.

They don't have a real choice, you see, because society says they can't be shirtless in public. Therefore we need to free them from that restriction and ban shirts in public places.

No we mustn't, as we did not ban the burkini. The burqa covers the face, the shirt does not. So if anything, a shirt is a burkini (not really, but still), not a burqa anyway.

I'm still talking about the burqa, which you have argued women are forced to wear in public because of a sexist community in which they live (even if it's not illegal, it's the psychological pressure man) and the only way to correct this injustice is to ban the burqa.

Similarly, I have argued that women are forced to wear shirts in public because of the sexist society in which they live (even if it's not illegal, the psychological pressure man) and the only way to correct this injustice is to ban shirts.

I'm glad France decided that communities couldn't ban the burqini, but they still have a misogynistic law on the books.

[Galloism]

I'm talking about this:



Now, we've established that they weren't invented 200 years after Mohammed's death. They were invented before anyone ever heard about Mohammed in a period in which we have sparse records, and given they were (apparently) invented as a symbol of high status, it may very well have been invented by a woman. There's really no way to know for sure.

Did women invent any of those coverings? We will never know. What we do know is that no woman invented the Islamic coverings, nor had a say in it.

You're making an irrelevant distinction.

Muslims did not invent the coverings. You were wrong. Full stop.

[Conserative Morality]

In ancient Greece? I know some women wore hair veils in ancient Rome for this reason, did they in Greece too?

It was primarily in Greece that women wore such veils. Plutarch is a Greek writer who wrote largely about Greek history and customs, often in comparison to Roman ones.

And again, how is this relevant?

It's relevant because you denied that such a custom existed in ancient Greece, and such a custom existing in ancient Greece was relevant because you asserted that burkas were 'invented' 200 years after Muhammad's death when in reality such veiling practices predate Muhammad both in and out of the Arabian peninsula.

[Olerand]

No we mustn't, as we did not ban the burkini. The burqa covers the face, the shirt does not. So if anything, a shirt is a burkini (not really, but still), not a burqa anyway.

I'm still talking about the burqa, which you have argued women are forced to wear in public because of a sexist community in which they live (even if it's not illegal, it's the psychological pressure man) and the only way to correct this injustice is to ban the burqa.

Similarly, I have argued that women are forced to wear shirts in public because of the sexist society in which they live (even if it's not illegal, the psychological pressure man) and the only way to correct this injustice is to ban shirts.

I'm glad France decided that communities couldn't ban the burqini, but they still have a misogynistic law on the books.

I'm not. The burqa is banned because it covers the face. Not for the reason that you gave. A ban validated by the ECHR. I argue against the other coverings with that logic, without advocating a ban. See?

The burqa is not comparable to a shirt, the burkini is comparable with difficulty.

And finally, a national authority in France is recognized as such. Hopefully a move for the future in distinguishing between France and a municipality in France. I know that's a difficult difference to make for many.

[Galloism]

Ok, so this is somewhat of a tangent, but this blurb from wiki is interesting:

Among the Tuareg, Songhai, Moors, Hausa, and Fulani of West Africa, women do not traditionally wear the veil, while men do. The men's facial covering originates from the belief that such action wards off evil spirits, but most probably relates to protection against the harsh desert sands as well; in any event, it is a firmly established tradition. Men begin wearing a veil at age 25 which conceals their entire face excluding their eyes. This veil is never removed, even in front of family members.[39][40]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil#Veils_for_men

[Conserative Morality]

Did women invent any of those coverings? We will never know. What we do know is that no woman invented the Islamic coverings, nor had a say in it.

Show me your proof. I'm sure you have some and aren't just talking out of your ass, right?

[Aggicificicerous]

I did. Here's why: It is a “personal choice” and a way to assert her identity and show her devotion to her Muslim faith. She wears it to be a good Muslim. Now, why must women cover up to show their devotion to Islam? Why not men?

There are a lot of weird people in the world, perhaps there is a woman so self-loathing. That's sad though, and not a healthy attitude towards being oneself.

If you want to argue that there's some ancient sexist double standard behind it, you've done so repeatedly, and every time I've responded that that doesn't mean people today can assign it their own values. Just like I can board a plane without thinking of Germany bombing Britain. That seems to be the difference between us. You're still stuck in whatever backwards century the burkha was first designed. I'm in the twenty-first century, where we accept that people have their own ideas on how to live their lives.

[Conserative Morality]

Ok, so this is somewhat of a tangent, but this blurb from wiki is interesting:

Among the Tuareg, Songhai, Moors, Hausa, and Fulani of West Africa, women do not traditionally wear the veil, while men do. The men's facial covering originates from the belief that such action wards off evil spirits, but most probably relates to protection against the harsh desert sands as well; in any event, it is a firmly established tradition. Men begin wearing a veil at age 25 which conceals their entire face excluding their eyes. This veil is never removed, even in front of family members.[39][40]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil#Veils_for_men

Shit, he's so oppressed choosing to celebrate his traditional culture. We must inform him that to be truly free, he should dress according to OUR arbitrary standards instead!

[Olerand]

Did women invent any of those coverings? We will never know. What we do know is that no woman invented the Islamic coverings, nor had a say in it.

You're making an irrelevant distinction.

Muslims did not invent the coverings. You were wrong. Full stop.

I don't care who invented the things in Assyria, I care why Muslim women have to wear them today. I said in Islam they were invented not to distinguish class, or to show male ownership, but to cover a woman's inherently sinful body, which is a factual statement.

In ancient Greece? I know some women wore hair veils in ancient Rome for this reason, did they in Greece too?

It was primarily in Greece that women wore such veils. Plutarch is a Greek writer who wrote largely about Greek history and customs, often in comparison to Roman ones.

And again, how is this relevant?

It's relevant because you denied that such a custom existed in ancient Greece, and such a custom existing in ancient Greece was relevant because you asserted that burkas were 'invented' 200 years after Muhammad's death when in reality such veiling practices predate Muhammad both in and out of the Arabian peninsula.

Invented in Islam, perhaps I should have said... appropriated by Islam, whatever. I know they did not invent them out of the blue, the veil is recorded in pagan pre-Islamic Arabia too.

[Galloism]

I'm still talking about the burqa, which you have argued women are forced to wear in public because of a sexist community in which they live (even if it's not illegal, it's the psychological pressure man) and the only way to correct this injustice is to ban the burqa.

Similarly, I have argued that women are forced to wear shirts in public because of the sexist society in which they live (even if it's not illegal, the psychological pressure man) and the only way to correct this injustice is to ban shirts.

I'm glad France decided that communities couldn't ban the burqini, but they still have a misogynistic law on the books.

I'm not. The burqa is banned because it covers the face.

It was banned because of dirty muslims. You know it and I know it. I was around when the arguments for the ban were taking place. I remember what the politicians were saying. They may have given an olive leaf of trying to justify it using some other means, but that wasn't its purpose. That was a flimsy excuse hoping it would pass the ECHR. Well, it did. Congratulations.

It's sort of like getting a company car so I can use it all the time for personal purposes, which I do, but then claim it's so I'm always ready to go places to transact business, which I almost never do. It's a thin excuse to use on paper. That's all.

[Auristania]

I thought you wear comparing elegant dresses with the burkini, which is why my response was directed at that, not at any double standard in Western dress.

That's because I am comparing the double standard of dresses/Western women with the double standard of the burka.

I've already discussed agency before. But I also believe in internalizing sexism and misogyny. You retain agency, even if you internalize bad ideas. I fundamentally do not believe a woman would have invented the Islamic coverings had they not been invented by men 200 years after the death of Muhammad.

... you're kidding, right?

Veils in the manner of burkas date back to Judaic religions and even *gasp* WESTERN Greece, and long predate Muhammad much less Islam.

I do not believe a woman can be so self-loathing.

There's no bigot like a self-hating bigot.

Have you ever read what Ancient Judaism has to say on the subject of burkas?
Genesis chapter 38

13And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnah to shear his sheep.

14And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a veil, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnah; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

15When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

16And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?

Tamar was King David's 9th great grandma, she needed to disguise herself as a prostitute so she covered her with a veil, and wrapped herself and her disguise worked. Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

Why is it if society mandates sexism in dress, it's ok, and not worth any bans, but if 'god' does it, it's not?

Because in this particular instance, the church's dress code is more evil than society's dress code. Church punishes breach of dress code by burning people alive, society punishes breach of dress code by sneering at them.

Also, society's dress code is less evil than church's because women have some influence on society's dress code, whereas church's dress code is invented by rancid old men.

[Olerand]

Ok, so this is somewhat of a tangent, but this blurb from wiki is interesting:

Among the Tuareg, Songhai, Moors, Hausa, and Fulani of West Africa, women do not traditionally wear the veil, while men do. The men's facial covering originates from the belief that such action wards off evil spirits, but most probably relates to protection against the harsh desert sands as well; in any event, it is a firmly established tradition. Men begin wearing a veil at age 25 which conceals their entire face excluding their eyes. This veil is never removed, even in front of family members.[39][40]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil#Veils_for_men

If only men have to wear them because men are more prone to evil spirit possessions or something then that is also sexist.

Did women invent any of those coverings? We will never know. What we do know is that no woman invented the Islamic coverings, nor had a say in it.

Show me your proof. I'm sure you have some and aren't just talking out of your ass, right?

They're not in the Quran. The first mention of a veil is of the veil women used to speak behind of in Muhammad's house as recounted in the Ahadith. The Ulama, a clerical body that women are excluded from, then deduced the coverings from that.
Women are factually known to have written neither the Quran, nor the Ahadith, nor been in the Ulama.

I did. Here's why: It is a “personal choice” and a way to assert her identity and show her devotion to her Muslim faith. She wears it to be a good Muslim. Now, why must women cover up to show their devotion to Islam? Why not men?

There are a lot of weird people in the world, perhaps there is a woman so self-loathing. That's sad though, and not a healthy attitude towards being oneself.

If you want to argue that there's some ancient sexist double standard behind it, you've done so repeatedly, and every time I've responded that that doesn't mean people today can assign it their own values. Just like I can board a plane without thinking of Germany bombing Britain. That seems to be the difference between us. You're still stuck in whatever backwards century the burkha was first designed. I'm in the twenty-first century, where we accept that people have their own ideas on how to live their lives.

Ancient being contemporary? Because it's still the same reason that the Ulama give for the coverings today, nothing has changed. It was invented for this purpose and it still is for this purpose.

I listen to people who invented the thing, and who are still alive, on why it is a thing. You don't, that is the difference between us.

[Conserative Morality]

Invented in Islam, perhaps I should have said... appropriated by Islam, whatever. I know they did not invent them out of the blue, the veil is recorded in pagan pre-Islamic Arabia too.

So your argument is that a long-standing regional tradition of veiling women that you admit predates Islam and may have roots in Assyrian royal culture and has never been universally agreed upon by Muslim scholars was made to oppress women by Muslims? That when it was 'appropriated', as you say, it was 're'-invented, and so its original purpose is irrelevant to the purpose given to it at an arbitrary point you chose to try to draw some sort of distinction between double standards of dress between Western and Islamic cultures?

[Galloism]

Why is it if society mandates sexism in dress, it's ok, and not worth any bans, but if 'god' does it, it's not?

Because in this particular instance, the church's dress code is more evil than society's dress code. Church punishes breach of dress code by burning people alive, society punishes breach of dress code by sneering at them.

It's far worse than sneering. You can wind up jobless, homeless, starving, mocked, beaten, and otherwise physically harmed in the present for not meeting society's dress code.

In France, in particular, there has been a spate of violence against Muslim women by western men and women as a result of their ban on the Burqa and other such anti-islamic actions making them feel justified about it. I linked to this earlier.

[Olerand]

I'm not. The burqa is banned because it covers the face.

It was banned because of dirty muslims. You know it and I know it. I was around when the arguments for the ban were taking place. I remember what the politicians were saying. They may have given an olive leaf of trying to justify it using some other means, but that wasn't its purpose. That was a flimsy excuse hoping it would pass the ECHR. Well, it did. Congratulations.

It's sort of like getting a company car so I can use it all the time for personal purposes, which I do, but then claim it's so I'm always ready to go places to transact business, which I almost never do. It's a thin excuse to use on paper. That's all.

It was de facto banned because it was becoming more prevalent on the streets in a few suburbs around Paris and Sarkozy needed a few political points. But it was legally banned because it covered the face. A ban approved by the ECHR.

Irrelevant. The legal, ECHR approved reasoning, which banned ski masks and regular masks etc. is because it covers the face.

[Olerand]

Invented in Islam, perhaps I should have said... appropriated by Islam, whatever. I know they did not invent them out of the blue, the veil is recorded in pagan pre-Islamic Arabia too.

So your argument is that a long-standing regional tradition of veiling women that you admit predates Islam and may have roots in Assyrian royal culture and has never been universally agreed upon by Muslim scholars was made to oppress women by Muslims? That when it was 'appropriated', as you say, it was 're'-invented, and so its original purpose is irrelevant to the purpose given to it at an arbitrary point you chose to try to draw some sort of distinction between double standards of dress between Western and Islamic cultures?

I argue that the reason it is theologically mandated in Islam is because it oppresses women. Why whatever is left of now Christian Assyria wears it was never my argument, or why the dead pagan Greeks, Romans, or Arabians wore it either. I never claimed they invented it out of the blue, but that Islam mandates it today for misogynistic reasons.

Nor do I recall ever defending Assyrian veils, or Western double standards.