To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Alvecia]

*Sigh*

I know this is difficult for you to understand, but let me try yet again:

The burqa is not the burkini.

The burkini does not include a full veil.

Try again.


Yet that hasn't happened here. The ban on the burkini was just an alarmist knee-jerk reaction without a solid foundation. That's part of the problem.

So the entire team of SME's, including the Muslims and social workers active in tha Muslimhood are all jerks.
But you, who didn't study the specific issue in France, who didn't live in France, you know it better as that team of...jerks?

Since you didn't know these jerks studied the issue, you also didn't read their reports. However, you know their conclusion has no solid foundation.

How is that possible?

Oh wait a minute…

You didn’t like their conclusion! That’s why it has no solid foundation. Ok.

You still haven't linked that study.

[Aelex]

Just because some blacks you know support segregation, doesnt meant you should support segregation.

Rather ironic that you're saying that when you're supporting a clothing that is the symbol of women's oppression and submission on the ground that "some might wear it willingly".

[Gravlen]

*Sigh*

I know this is difficult for you to understand, but let me try yet again:

The burqa is not the burkini.

The burkini does not include a full veil.

Try again.


Yet that hasn't happened here. The ban on the burkini was just an alarmist knee-jerk reaction without a solid foundation. That's part of the problem.

So the entire team of SME's, including the Muslims and social workers active in tha Muslimhood are all jerks.
But you, who didn't study the specific issue in France, who didn't live in France, you know it better as that team of...jerks?

Since you didn't know these jerks studied the issue, you also didn't read their reports. However, you know their conclusion has no solid foundation.

How is that possible?

Oh wait a minute…

You didn’t like their conclusion! That’s why it has no solid foundation. Ok.

Wut? No. They've studied a different issue. That's the problem. They haven't studied this issue.

I am still not talking about the burqa or the niqab, so get back to me when you find someone who's studied the issue of the burkini. You know, the topic of the thread.

[Gravlen]

Just because some blacks you know support segregation, doesnt meant you should support segregation.

Rather ironic that you're saying that when you're supporting a clothing that is the symbol of women's oppression and submission on the ground that "some might wear it willingly".

How is a full body swimsuit a symbol of women's oppression? Or are you just continuing an off-topic tangent?

[Nariterrr]

Rather ironic that you're saying that when you're supporting a clothing that is the symbol of women's oppression and submission on the ground that "some might wear it willingly".

How is a full body swimsuit a symbol of women's oppression? Or are you just continuing an off-topic tangent?

Because it's from a different culture... so therefore it must be oppressive.

[Ifreann]

Maybe you're just not trying hard enough.

---

But Gravlen, she might have been a terrorist! They're known for lounging on the beach.

She could also have been a Tscherman, hiding a beach towel under her dress, ready to occupy an unused sunbed in a daring blitz-style sunbed-raid in the morning...

When will we be free from the horrors of Strandkrieg?

[Gravlen]

Also, more academics:

The only way to address the threat of terrorism effectively is to tackle the radical Islamist ideology that underpins it. This means working to stop the religious-industrial complexes in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and elsewhere in the Gulf from using their abundant petrodollars to fund the spread of extremist ideology.

It also means launching a concerted information campaign to discredit that ideology, much like the West discredited communism during the Cold War – a critical component of its eventual triumph.

This is a job for all major powers, but it is a particularly urgent task for Europe, given its proximity to the Middle East, especially the new jihadist citadels that countries like Syria, Iraq, and Libya represent.

To take down the terrorists requires delegitimising the belief system that justifies their actions. Burqa bans and other measures by European authorities that target Islam as such are superficial and counter-productive, as they create divisions in European society, while leaving the ideological underpinnings of terrorism unaddressed.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/there-is-more-to-stopping-terror-than-just-banning-the-burkini-417169.html

French sociologist and Islam expert Raphael Liogier said that such political involvement was adding to what he called "the theatre of war".

"I'm really shocked, but not because women are wearing burqinis. I'm shocked because people feel they have to react to it. Women have the freedom to wear a burqini if they want to," he told The Local.

He said that banning the swimwear was the wrong response, especially in Corsica where he said authorities should have focused on jailing those responsible for the violence.

"Put it like this: If a woman wears a very short skirt and then gets raped, no one would ever try to ban short skirts. They would punish the rapists. That's how a free country with civilized people works. But we are doing the opposite here," he said.

He said French officials were "reversing the concept of a free society" by trying to prevent violence by forbidding clothes.

Banning the burqini, he argued, was actually unconstitutional.

"The government confuses things like burqinis with being a sign of war, or a first step towards terrorism. But France is supposed to have been free since 1789. It's a total overreaction, it is sociologically unjustified and it's making France's legal system more fragile," he said.

"This is exactly what Isis wants, they want Muslims to feel that western societies are against them, that they can't be free in western society."

Author of the book "War of Civilisations Will Not Take Place", Liogier has been accused by some of being anti-patriotic for his stance. He believes by constantly talking of war and of Islam, France is "doing the best marketing for Isis free of charge".

Other experts worry that a burqini ban will increase the divide further between France's non-Muslims and its Muslim community, which is estimated to number around 500,000.

Agnès De Féo, a sociologist and filmmaker who for ten years has explored the topic of Islam in France, says the government's interaction "makes the French public hysterical".

"This can only escalate, it's absolutely crazy," she told The Local.

"A ban like this will certainly lead to some of the women becoming radicalized themselves. That's what we saw after the burqa ban in 2010. Women started to wear the burqa after the law was passed, and then some went to Syria and turned to violence.

"You can follow the whole evolution of it. They become fed up with all the noise in the French news, the obsession with Islam in the French media."

She added that the French public, as a result, often end up thinking that Muslims are all dangerous and say that they don't want them in the country.

"But the problem, and we saw this in Corsica, is that these women wearing the burqinis are actually French. They were born here. Then they're left feeling like outsiders because they're reminded that they're not really French," she said.

"Some of the terrorists, even the men, felt targeted by it. They're left asking one another 'Have you seen how France treats Muslims?'"

"The government doesn't understand that this law will have long term consequences, just as the burqa ban has had."

http://www.thelocal.fr/20160816/burqini-bans-will-only-divide-france-more

[Gravlen]

How is a full body swimsuit a symbol of women's oppression? Or are you just continuing an off-topic tangent?

Because it's from a different culture... so therefore it must be oppressive.

Damn oppressive Australians!! *Shakes fist at*

[Ifreann]

Also, more academics:

The only way to address the threat of terrorism effectively is to tackle the radical Islamist ideology that underpins it. This means working to stop the religious-industrial complexes in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and elsewhere in the Gulf from using their abundant petrodollars to fund the spread of extremist ideology.

It also means launching a concerted information campaign to discredit that ideology, much like the West discredited communism during the Cold War – a critical component of its eventual triumph.

This is a job for all major powers, but it is a particularly urgent task for Europe, given its proximity to the Middle East, especially the new jihadist citadels that countries like Syria, Iraq, and Libya represent.

To take down the terrorists requires delegitimising the belief system that justifies their actions. Burqa bans and other measures by European authorities that target Islam as such are superficial and counter-productive, as they create divisions in European society, while leaving the ideological underpinnings of terrorism unaddressed.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/there-is-more-to-stopping-terror-than-just-banning-the-burkini-417169.html

Foolishness. Everyone knows we defeated the communists by banning ushankas.

[Gravlen]

She could also have been a Tscherman, hiding a beach towel under her dress, ready to occupy an unused sunbed in a daring blitz-style sunbed-raid in the morning...

When will we be free from the horrors of Strandkrieg?

Beaches... Beaches never change. Well, except when the tide comes in, but you know what I mean.

[Chestaan]

Except that it literally performs the exact same purpose. So, if I was a Muslim lady who wanted to wear a burkini, I would just wear the non-banned Speedo version, because it performs the same function. Problem solved. In this hypothetical world prepare to see lots of Muslim women wearing Speedo burkinis.

No, it doesn't have the same function.

The Speedo suit is swimwear which is useful when doing water sports. It's not that suitable for sunbathing.
The burkini is just a troll tool to show off you're a bad ass extremist Muslima. At least when you are wearing it in France.

The burkini has nothing to do with Islam.

If the aim of the burkini is to cover more skin than a usual swimsuit does, then yes, it does have the same function.

[The Alexanderians]

But less than other citizens it seems.

Now I'm sure there is a word for that. What was it called? I just can't remember for the life of me.

Do you suggest that non-Muslims can wear a burqa in France?

They can't either. The horror.

That's still targeted to a specific minority because infidel motivation to wear a burka is shall we say "significantly reduced"

[The Alma Mater]

No, it doesn't have the same function.

The Speedo suit is swimwear which is useful when doing water sports. It's not that suitable for sunbathing.
The burkini is just a troll tool to show off you're a bad ass extremist Muslima. At least when you are wearing it in France.

The burkini has nothing to do with Islam.

If the aim of the burkini is to cover more skin than a usual swimsuit does, then yes, it does have the same function.

Intent does matter a tiny bit. While a Ku Klux Klan outfit and a well pressed suit have the same function of covering the body, the choice of which you wear when speaking to president Obama might send quite a different message.

Still, do muslim women really wear the Burkini to declare they support Islamic terrorist attacks as France implies ?

[Lunalia]

Just because some blacks you know support segregation, doesnt meant you should support segregation.

Rather ironic that you're saying that when you're supporting a clothing that is the symbol of women's oppression and submission on the ground that "some might wear it willingly".

In their culture, they are raised to believe that wearing it is a sign of modesty.

I don't think that someone who has been raised to believe that they should be modest, and that covering themselves is modest, should be forced to strip and do things which they think are immodest, when it's not like it's a bank where all face coverings have to be removed for security reasons. That's oppressing their ingrained sense of modesty in the name of eliminating oppression. Some women would not be caught dead in short skirts or two piece bathing suits because they think these articles are immodest. Should they be forced to wear two piece bathing suits and short skirts because one pieces and long skirts are oppressive? Actually scratch that, let's just force all women to were nothing at all, because all clothes are oppressive.

[Liriena]

Did that 'French police force Muslim woman on the beach to undress' thing actually happen?

Well, staunch opponents of Islamic misogyny, I hope you are damn proud of yourselves. That's some top-quality women's rights on display right there.

[Wallenburg]

Did that 'French police force Muslim woman on the beach to undress' thing actually happen?

Well, staunch opponents of Islamic misogyny, I hope you are damn proud of yourselves. That's some top-quality women's rights on display right there.

Yep, apparently they are cracking down on any headdress whatsoever.

So much liberty!

[Liriena]

Did that 'French police force Muslim woman on the beach to undress' thing actually happen?

Well, staunch opponents of Islamic misogyny, I hope you are damn proud of yourselves. That's some top-quality women's rights on display right there.

Yep, apparently they are cracking down on any headdress whatsoever.

So much liberty!

Secularism: You are doing it wrong. Just wrong. Sooooooo bloody wrong. Like, very wrong. Extremely wrong. Wronger than wrong. Pathetically wrong. It's almost inspiring in its idiotic wrongness, but not quite. It's a fantastic, whole new level in self-defeating, almost self-betraying, wrong.

Never have I been more glad that my country didn't start as a French colony. Otherwise, my friendschämen would be far too intense.

Also, just wondering... Does this whole hysteria over women wearing burkinis at the beach extend to all women, or just Muslim women? What if an atheist or Christian woman decided that she wants to cover herself, and she preferred the burkini for that?

[The Alexanderians]

Yep, apparently they are cracking down on any headdress whatsoever.

So much liberty!

Secularism: You are doing it wrong. Just wrong. Sooooooo bloody wrong. Like, very wrong. Extremely wrong. Wronger than wrong. Pathetically wrong. It's almost inspiring in its idiotic wrongness, but not quite. It's a fantastic, whole new level in self-defeating, almost self-betraying, wrong.

Never have I been more glad that my country didn't start as a French colony. Otherwise, my friendschämen would be far too intense.

Also, just wondering... Does this whole hysteria over women wearing burkinis at the beach extend to all women, or just Muslim women? What if an atheist or Christian woman decided that she wants to cover herself, and their prefer the burkini for that?

Technically covering your face is illegal aswell (like masks and lower face covers) and I'm not sure they care (legally at least) about the religion of the person doing it. Britain has a similar thing but at least their's makes a little sense and is geared towards wearing hoodies in CCTV monitored areas making it a legit law enforcement concern.

[Liriena]

Secularism: You are doing it wrong. Just wrong. Sooooooo bloody wrong. Like, very wrong. Extremely wrong. Wronger than wrong. Pathetically wrong. It's almost inspiring in its idiotic wrongness, but not quite. It's a fantastic, whole new level in self-defeating, almost self-betraying, wrong.

Never have I been more glad that my country didn't start as a French colony. Otherwise, my friendschämen would be far too intense.

Also, just wondering... Does this whole hysteria over women wearing burkinis at the beach extend to all women, or just Muslim women? What if an atheist or Christian woman decided that she wants to cover herself, and their prefer the burkini for that?

Technically covering your face is illegal aswell (like masks and lower face covers) and I'm not sure they care (legally at least) about the religion of the person doing it. Britain has a similar thing but at least their's makes a little sense and is geared towards wearing hoodies in CCTV monitored areas making it a legit law enforcement concern.

Burkinis cover the face?

[Wallenburg]

Burkinis cover the face?

No, but you can hide a bomb vest inside of them and nobody will notice.

[The Alexanderians]

Technically covering your face is illegal aswell (like masks and lower face covers) and I'm not sure they care (legally at least) about the religion of the person doing it. Britain has a similar thing but at least their's makes a little sense and is geared towards wearing hoodies in CCTV monitored areas making it a legit law enforcement concern.

Burkinis cover the face?

I don't think so but some garbs do since the burkini isnt the only thing they're going after I figured I'd mention it.

[Liriena]

Burkinis cover the face?

I don't think so but some garbs do since the burkini isnt the only thing they're going after I figured I'd mention it.

Okay...? But the core issue here is burkinis. Not those full-face thingies you see in Afghanistan.

[Auristania]

Also, just wondering... Does this whole hysteria over women wearing burkinis at the beach extend to all women, or just Muslim women? What if an atheist or Christian woman decided that she wants to cover herself, and their prefer the burkini for that?

I'd guess the ban applies to everyone.

Suppose the law said Muslim women may not wear them, but Christians, men and monkeys may: how can the police possibly know if someone is Christian or Muslim, male or female, human or monkey when they are all wrapped up?

[Miarie]

Right, and Corsica belongs to Italy, so Muslims are violating this rule.

Corsica is french, since 1769.

After being ruled by the Republic of Genoa since 1284, Corsica was briefly an independent Corsican Republic from 1755 until it was conquered by France in 1769.

That doesn't mean it should be French, it just is.

[Calladan]

Did that 'French police force Muslim woman on the beach to undress' thing actually happen?

Well, staunch opponents of Islamic misogyny, I hope you are damn proud of yourselves. That's some top-quality women's rights on display right there.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqoGoCZW8AAHPTr.jpg:large
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... nice-beach

As you say, you have got to be proud of yourself when armed police force a woman to take some of her clothes of in the name of "respecting good morals"