To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Nacesa Plana]

No. But the men behind the burqa may feel repressed. What a pity. They always can leave France and head for USA. A country with no racial, cultural, social and religious problems at all. Oh wait a minute...

Question: If the burkini was banned completely, and then Muslim women substituted it for the Speedo burkini, would you advocate banning the Speedo burkini also?

Not many Muslim women do wear a burkini. But the fundies do.

The Speedo suit, which is clearly not a burkini, has no correlation with Muslim fundamentalism. So they can wear it if they like to sweat in the sunshine.

[Wallenburg]

...

It is literally impossible to oppress yourself.

Self Flagellation ring a bell?

That's not self-oppression, that's self-mutilation. You have every opportunity to stop whenever you want, and if you don't, you clearly want to do it.

Not to mention that some people consider the Burka to be a symbol of oppression, so if you willingly wear it then under that view you're oppressing yourself.

Some people consider the American flag to be a symbol of oppression, so if you willingly fly it then under that view you're oppressing yourself.

[Nacesa Plana]

They never said that. *Nod*

Niqab is still a part of Al-Islam.

No. It is not. Not even close.

Dalil Boubakeur, former rector of the Paris Grand Mosque, and the members of the French Council of the Muslim Faith said both the burqa and niqab existed before the advent of Islam.

The niqab was originally a piece of clothing designed to protect oneself from the sun, the wind, and sand. However some scholars succeeded in imposing the niqab at the beginning of the 20th century in Saudi Arabia.

Boubakeur and the other Islamic scholars testified that only the Islamic scarf covering the head and the neck could be considered as conforming to the principles of Islam.

[Nacesa Plana]

An enormous list of Muslim women testified they had no choice. To give you some names: Chahdortt Djavann, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Samira Bellil, Fadéla Amara, ...

Worldwide most Muslim women are forced to wear a goody-goody veil. In some countries by law, in other countries it's a man who's deciding they have to wear it. And if they do not, the women are beaten or locked up at home.

Sometimes they have a choice, but when they opt not for the veil, they are excluded from the family or local community. What a choice.

And if the above is not applicable, how much choice do you have when they learn indoctrinate you the veil is a better option. You're a so called better Muslima, you're showing more respect for the almighty, you are not naked, etc…

I've a Muslim friend, she has 2 children, aged 9 and 11 years. She's wearing a veil, her children only when they go the Muslim school in the weekend.

She said her oldest child may choose next year if she want to wear the veil permanently or not. But does the child have a real choice? Not, not all. That child is currently learning in the Muslim school that being unveiled is close to disgust.

I suppose to your credit I never asked for a good answer. A list hardly proves that all women are forced to wear them it doesn't even prove a sizable minority it just proves those women listed are forced. If they are somehow forced in France then you are attacking the symptoms not the cause by banning free women from freely choosing to wear what they want. You should instead support domestic violence shelters. To your last point, children don't have a choice period. Doesn't matter be they Muslim, atheist, or freaking praying to sonic the hedgehog; children have the majority of their lives determined by their legal guardians this is just the facts of the world. Does it suck for them? Sure but that's the way it is.

Now my answer: Yes in an 'enlightened' and 'free' nation women can wear what ever clothing they want no matter how tacky, promiscuous, or conservative the clothing is. Because free will and the freedom to choose are supposed to be held in high regard regardless of how many Frenchmen get triggered by it.

Not if these clothes are used as a tool to suppress women. If you like the niqab and burqa that much, why don't you wear one?

[Nacesa Plana]

We don't allow people to run around naked either and that's clearly oppression too.

That would be due to public health concerns.

lol

Yes, people get sick when they see naked bodies. Hur hur.

[Wallenburg]

Not if these clothes are used as a tool to suppress women. If you like the niqab and burqa that much, why don't you wear one?

1) He never said that he liked either of them, just that women have the right to choose whether they wear them. Learn the difference.
2) I don't see Alexanderians wearing a niqab or burka any time soon, especially since he's a guy.
3) "If you love it so much, why don't you marry it?"

[Wallenburg]

That would be due to public health concerns.

lol

Yes, people get sick when they see naked bodies. Hur hur.

Do you have anything other than shoddy strawmen for us?

[Nacesa Plana]

So Germany's planning on banning the Burka too?

Yes, thankfully. The burqa has no place outside of arabia.

The burqa, the niqab and the burkini have no place in Arabia as well.

At least they have nothing to do with Islam.

[Wallenburg]

Yes, thankfully. The burqa has no place outside of arabia.

The burqa, the niqab and the burkini have no place in Arabia as well.

At least they have nothing to do with Islam.

Please explain then why you think we should ban them?

[New Chilokver]

Some Islamic women don't wear any form of head-covering. I know some personally. But it is their right under religious freedom to do so if they wish to.

[Nacesa Plana]

So it has to be a majority???

Yes it does.
Even if 49% of women are forced, that means 51% of women are not, so banning it would be infringing on their right.
That is not good enough.
If you're going to infringe on someones rights it has to be for a very good reason.
Until then other methods should be taken.

Well, most people don't kill other people. A very minor minority is killing people. At such we should allow murder?

TIL forced clothing choices are equal to murder.

I don't equalize murder with forced clothing.

I explained you that you don't need a majority before something becomes a problem.

Most of the people don't kill. Doesn't mean we should allow murder.
Most of the people don't DUI. Doesn't mean we should allow driving cars when intoxicated.
Most of the parents don't abuse their children. Doesn't mean that child abusing should be ok.

And the same works for wearing the burqa, niqab or burkini.

Even when a majority has a real-real free choice to wear it or not, even then it's not acceptable. Because too many women don't have a choice at all. It's the niqab or get kicked and smashed.

[Wallenburg]

Even when a majority has a real-real free choice to wear it or not, even then it's not acceptable. Because too many women don't have a choice at all. It's the niqab or get kicked and smashed.

It's not acceptable for women to be able to choose what they wear!

[New Chilokver]

Some women are able to choose what they wish to wear while other women aren't? Unacceptable, we must create eqaulity and oppress them all.

[Nacesa Plana]

The burqa, the niqab and the burkini have no place in Arabia as well.

At least they have nothing to do with Islam.

Please explain then why you think we should ban them?

These pieces of clothing are an intolerable infringement on the freedom and the dignity of women. It is the denial of gender equality and of a mixed society. Finally, it is the will to exclude women from social life and the rejection of our common will to live together.

It infringes upon three principles that are included in the motto of the Republic: liberty, equality and fraternity.

[Nacesa Plana]

Even when a majority has a real-real free choice to wear it or not, even then it's not acceptable. Because too many women don't have a choice at all. It's the niqab or get kicked and smashed.

It's not acceptable for women to be able to choose what they wear!

No. It's not acceptable that men decide what women should wear.

That's why France and many other countries installed burqa laws. These laws are protecting the repressed women. And yes they are not fun for the men behind the burqa. What a shame.

[The Lone Alliance]

Some people consider the American flag to be a symbol of oppression, so if you willingly fly it then under that view you're oppressing yourself.

And some people do want to ban the public display of flags people consider oppressing.... Even if the flag is being flown on private property.

Ironically some of those people will condemn a burka ban while endorsing the previous ban... Funny how that works.

[Nacesa Plana]

lol

Yes, people get sick when they see naked bodies. Hur hur.

Do you have anything other than shoddy strawmen for us?

It's not a strawman.

In fact, if we all had a naked life, it would be better for the public health. Clothes, all clothes, are a hotbed for bacteria.

Not that I am in favor. I love clothes. lol

[Nacesa Plana]

Even when a majority has a real-real free choice to wear it or not, even then it's not acceptable. Because too many women don't have a choice at all. It's the niqab or get kicked and smashed.

It's not acceptable for women to be able to choose what they wear!

The niqab almost did not exist in France before the year 2000. In 2009 about 1900 women started to wear the niqab.

Salafist groups in France and abroad used their influence for the re-Islamization of the populations of Muslim origin and the recognition, in the public space as well as in the law of the western societies, of rules flowing from a minority interpretation of the Quran and of Muslim tradition

40% of the women wearing the niqab in France are associated with Salafist groups.

Several witnesses testified that freedom to wear clothing of their choice did not exist in some Parisian suburbs, as the social pressure to wear the full veil is so strong that they have to conform. It is feared that if the wearing of the full veil is normalized, the number of women wearing it will increase, as this practice will be forced on them by their communities. Social services reported several cases near Paris of eight-year old girls fully covered by veils. In a high school near Lyon, a group of Muslim students asked the headmaster to provide them with a room where they could change their clothes to wear clothes similar to those worn by other students, as their parents were forcing them to wear clothes hiding all signs of femininity.

[Wallenburg]

It's not acceptable for women to be able to choose what they wear!

No. It's not acceptable that men decide what women should wear.

Then why are you supporting policy that says they can?

These pieces of clothing are an intolerable infringement on the freedom and the dignity of women. It is the denial of gender equality and of a mixed society. Finally, it is the will to exclude women from social life and the rejection of our common will to live together.

It infringes upon three principles that are included in the motto of the Republic: liberty, equality and fraternity.

How? How do these headdresses do any of that?

Do you have anything other than shoddy strawmen for us?

It's not a strawman.

In fact, if we all had a naked life, it would be better for the public health. Clothes, all clothes, are a hotbed for bacteria.

Not that I am in favor. I love clothes. lol

You clearly do not understand even the basics of public health. Clothes are a barrier against the communication of countless pathogens. There's a reason medical professionals use surgical masks and gloves. There's a reason cleanup crews wear protective suits. Nudity is quite conducive to the spread of disease.

[Freefall11111]

In fact, if we all had a naked life, it would be better for the public health. Clothes, all clothes, are a hotbed for bacteria.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

[Gravlen]

Question: If the burkini was banned completely, and then Muslim women substituted it for the Speedo burkini, would you advocate banning the Speedo burkini also?

Not many Muslim women do wear a burkini. But the fundies do.

The Speedo suit, which is clearly not a burkini, has no correlation with Muslim fundamentalism.

So "clearly" that you're unable to tell them apart. You are completely unable to pick out any difference between the two - apart from the fact that one of them contains a muslim.

So they can wear it if they like to sweat in the sunshine.

Nope. Also banned in France.

[Gravlen]

Please explain then why you think we should ban them?

These pieces of clothing are an intolerable infringement on the freedom and the dignity of women. It is the denial of gender equality and of a mixed society. Finally, it is the will to exclude women from social life and the rejection of our common will to live together.

It infringes upon three principles that are included in the motto of the Republic: liberty, equality and fraternity.

That might be an argument if the burkini hid the face. It doesn't, so your argument is bunk. There is nothing about wearing a swimsuit that fully covers the body that will exclude women from social life. There is nothing about wearing that type of swimsuit that means a rejection of the principle of living together.

The only denial of gender equality happening here is by the French authorities, whom are trying to exclude muslim woman from social life and refusing to live together with them.

[Nacesa Plana]

No. It's not acceptable that men decide what women should wear.

Then why are you supporting policy that says they can?

These pieces of clothing are an intolerable infringement on the freedom and the dignity of women. It is the denial of gender equality and of a mixed society. Finally, it is the will to exclude women from social life and the rejection of our common will to live together.

It infringes upon three principles that are included in the motto of the Republic: liberty, equality and fraternity.

How? How do these headdresses do any of that?

It's not a strawman.

In fact, if we all had a naked life, it would be better for the public health. Clothes, all clothes, are a hotbed for bacteria.

Not that I am in favor. I love clothes. lol

You clearly do not understand even the basics of public health. Clothes are a barrier against the communication of countless pathogens. There's a reason medical professionals use surgical masks and gloves. There's a reason cleanup crews wear protective suits. Nudity is quite conducive to the spread of disease.

lol

That's what you do a lot, change the context to make a point.

The public world is not an ER. And in the daily life we don't cut people. At least not here.

Clothes are outside the ER not a barrier against countless pathogens. Not even close. The clothes in the ER are also not 'common' clothes but sterilised ones. At least they did their best to sterilise them. They are also used for a very short time, cheap and replaced fast.
Outside the ER, clothes do have a function. They can, by instance, protect you against the weather, but they are no barrier against bacteria.
Bacteria are too small. Clothes, all clothes have enormous gaps (at least for bacteria). By instance, Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus is very common in all our clothes.
And when you have open wounds this bacteria can become very dangerous.

When we would be naked all the time, we would burn more fat, our vitamin D level would increase at such the related immune system too, we would suffer from less psychological issues, etc.

Going naked is better, much better, as wearing clothes. However, I like clothes.

[Stadenwick]

Please explain then why you think we should ban them?

These pieces of clothing are an intolerable infringement on the freedom and the dignity of women. It is the denial of gender equality and of a mixed society. Finally, it is the will to exclude women from social life and the rejection of our common will to live together.

It infringes upon three principles that are included in the motto of the Republic: liberty, equality and fraternity.

Oh so we start banning religious lothes in the name of principles that can be strected so much. Tell me when we start banning catholic priest from wearing their dark robe cuz it isnt equal to buddhist monk in the name of mixed community okie.

Seriously tho, its their religion, and if they dont feel oppresed by their own religion and with their own conscience then so be it. Isn't mixed society supposed to be consisted of mix (hence the name) of people who is different?

[Stadenwick]

Please explain then why you think we should ban them?

These pieces of clothing are an intolerable infringement on the freedom and the dignity of women. It is the denial of gender equality and of a mixed society. Finally, it is the will to exclude women from social life and the rejection of our common will to live together.

It infringes upon three principles that are included in the motto of the Republic: liberty, equality and fraternity.

Oh so we start banning religious lothes in the name of principles that can be strected so much. Tell me when we start banning catholic priest from wearing their dark robe cuz it isnt equal to buddhist monk in the name of mixed community okie.

Seriously tho, its their religion, and if they dont feel oppresed by their own religion and with their own conscience then so be it. Isn't mixed society supposed to be consisted of mix (hence the name) of people who is different?