To burkini or not burkini, that’s the question.

[Nacesa Plana]

You say here and now, a woman wearing the burqa or burkini can opt to wear this...



...in public? Without any consequence?

Answer my question then I answer yours

An enormous list of Muslim women testified they had no choice. To give you some names: Chahdortt Djavann, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Samira Bellil, Fadéla Amara, ...

Worldwide most Muslim women are forced to wear a goody-goody veil. In some countries by law, in other countries it's a man who's deciding they have to wear it. And if they do not, the women are beaten or locked up at home.

Sometimes they have a choice, but when they opt not for the veil, they are excluded from the family or local community. What a choice.

And if the above is not applicable, how much choice do you have when they learn indoctrinate you the veil is a better option. You're a so called better Muslima, you're showing more respect for the almighty, you are not naked, etc…

I've a Muslim friend, she has 2 children, aged 9 and 11 years. She's wearing a veil, her children only when they go the Muslim school in the weekend.

She said her oldest child may choose next year if she want to wear the veil permanently or not. But does the child have a real choice? Not, not all. That child is currently learning in the Muslim school that being unveiled is close to disgust.

[Neutraligon]

Answer my question then I answer yours

An enormous list of Muslim women testified they had no choice. To give you some names: Chahdortt Djavann, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Samira Bellil, Fadéla Amara, ...

Worldwide most Muslim women are forced to wear a goody-goody veil. In some countries by law, in other countries it's a man who's deciding they have to wear it. And if they do not, the women are beaten or locked up at home.

Sometimes they have a choice, but when they opt not for the veil, they are excluded from the family or local community. What a choice.

And if the above is not applicable, how much choice do you have when they learn indoctrinate you the veil is a better option. You're a so called better Muslima, you're showing more respect for the almighty, you are not naked, etc…

I've a Muslim friend, she has 2 children, aged 9 and 11 years. She's wearing a veil, her children only when they go the Muslim school in the weekend.

She said her oldest child may choose next year if she want to wear the veil permanently or not. But does the child have a real choice? Not, not all. That child is currently learning in the Muslim school that being unveiled is close to disgust.

And? A list of women who did not have a choice does not mean other women did not not choose to wear it. Society always has influence. In our society we are pushed to wear rather skimpy clothing, but that does not mean you are forced to wear that clothing. Similarly being raised to wear more covering clothing does not change the fact that they do indeed have a choice. For those women who do not have a choice you make shelters so they have places to run to should they need the shelter. You do not force women to wear clothing they do not wish to wear.

[Nacesa Plana]

It's always uncomfortable to wear a burkini. Or do you think women like to cover themselves in sweat?

Why would a burkini be sweaty when it is made out of the same material as other swimwear. And...some women do like being sweaty.

It's not made of the same material. Usually the full body suits are made of woven elastane-nylon and polyurethane. The burkini is made of polyester.

Nobody is wearing a full body suit for sunbathing. It's extreme uncomfortable for that use, you'll sweat all the time and your body temperature will increase.

But people certainly do use it for water sports: scuba diving, windsurfing, water skiing, swimming...

The comparison between the burkini and a, by instance, Speedo bodysuit is rather ridiculous and just clear demagogic. You 'forget' to talk about the context of use and we both know why.

[Nacesa Plana]

An enormous list of Muslim women testified they had no choice. To give you some names: Chahdortt Djavann, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Samira Bellil, Fadéla Amara, ...

Worldwide most Muslim women are forced to wear a goody-goody veil. In some countries by law, in other countries it's a man who's deciding they have to wear it. And if they do not, the women are beaten or locked up at home.

Sometimes they have a choice, but when they opt not for the veil, they are excluded from the family or local community. What a choice.

And if the above is not applicable, how much choice do you have when they learn indoctrinate you the veil is a better option. You're a so called better Muslima, you're showing more respect for the almighty, you are not naked, etc…

I've a Muslim friend, she has 2 children, aged 9 and 11 years. She's wearing a veil, her children only when they go the Muslim school in the weekend.

She said her oldest child may choose next year if she want to wear the veil permanently or not. But does the child have a real choice? Not, not all. That child is currently learning in the Muslim school that being unveiled is close to disgust.

And? A list of women who did not have a choice does not mean other women did not not choose to wear it. Society always has influence. In our society we are pushed to wear rather skimpy clothing, but that does not mean you are forced to wear that clothing. Similarly being raised to wear more covering clothing does not change the fact that they do indeed have a choice. For those women who do not have a choice you make shelters so they have places to run to should they need the shelter. You do not force women to wear clothing they do not wish to wear.

There's no penalty for wearing Crocs. They are faultier as fault. But if you don't wear Crocs, no one will beat you, lock you up, exclude you from your family or society.

You're not indoctrinated to wear Crocs. There's no way you'll showing more respect to the almighty when you wore them.

You could be influenced to wear them by your friends or the clever marketing of the fashion industry.

But it's entirely different as wearing a veil. And even more different as wearing a burqa or burkini.

[Baltenstein]

There's no penalty for wearing Crocs.

There totally should be though, those things are an abomination.

[Nacesa Plana]

There's no penalty for wearing Crocs.

There totally should be though, those things are an abomination.

Our only hope is the French government. They might outlaw these fundamentalist ugly shoes.

[New Chilokver]

But couldn't one say that for all manner of clothing? Society in general regulates and dictates fashion- suits and formal wear for business and interviews fot example. Theoretically, one could wear whatever they wished, but in reality they'll be judged and frowned upon by their peers. So it comes down to this- do they switch clothes to fit in better with their friends, or choose other people to associate with? Obviously, this applies a lot more extremely for Muslims, given that it's not just their friends, but also families they risk ostracizing but the fact is, if they truly wished not to wear such clothing they have the option to change religion. So they have a choice, in much the same way one who hates their job has the choice to quit it.

[Gravlen]

Explain to me what, exactly, makes these symbols of oppression?

It's like comparing scouts uniforms...



...with these ones...



...and later act like it are the same uniforms.

Failure to answer my question. Try again.

[Gravlen]

Why would a burkini be sweaty when it is made out of the same material as other swimwear. And...some women do like being sweaty.

It's not made of the same material. Usually the full body suits are made of woven elastane-nylon and polyurethane. The burkini is made of polyester.

Or Poliamide, Lycra, Nylon and Elastane. You can throw some Spandex in there as well.

Nobody is wearing a full body suit for sunbathing.

Of course not. Nobody...

A NEW craze is sweeping beachgoers in China concerned about the harmful effects of the skin.

Full bodysuits, known as "face-kinis", which totally covers the wearer's head are proving popular on beaches in China's north-east.

Men and women are appearing on nearly every beach in Qingdao, in eastern China's Shandong province, in bodysuits where only the mouth and nose is exposed.

The comparison between the burkini and a, by instance, Speedo bodysuit is rather ridiculous and just clear demagogic. You 'forget' to talk about the context of use and we both know why.

Why? What's the difference between these two?

and

The first one is a Speedo. The second one is from the creator of the "burkini". What's the actual difference between the two? A vague sense of "context" in your mind?

[Nacesa Plana]

It's like comparing scouts uniforms...



...with these ones...



...and later act like it are the same uniforms.

Failure to answer my question. Try again.

Since it's difficult for you to empathize the concept of context and do not feel that objects might have a deep emotional correlation, it's maybe better to do a practical test.

• Buy a "glory suit" of the Ku Klux Klan.
• Wear it
• Walk into a black neighbourhood.

For you, it are just sheets.

And if they bug you, mumble something about the First Amendment and that you have the right to wear what you want, everywhere, always. They will certainly understand you.

Farewell, my friend.

[Gravlen]

Failure to answer my question. Try again.

Since it's difficult for you to empathize the concept of context and do not feel that objects might have a deep emotional correlation, it's maybe better to do a practical test.

• Buy a "glory suit" of the Ku Klux Klan.
• Wear it
• Walk into a black neighbourhood.

For you, it are just sheets.

And if they bug you, mumble something about the First Amendment and that you have the right to wear what you want, everywhere, always. They will certainly understand you.

Farewell, my friend.

So you are unable to answer my question?

[Nacesa Plana]

Since it's difficult for you to empathize the concept of context and do not feel that objects might have a deep emotional correlation, it's maybe better to do a practical test.

• Buy a "glory suit" of the Ku Klux Klan.
• Wear it
• Walk into a black neighbourhood.

For you, it are just sheets.

And if they bug you, mumble something about the First Amendment and that you have the right to wear what you want, everywhere, always. They will certainly understand you.

Farewell, my friend.

So you are unable to answer my question?

I think I already answered your question a dozen times. The problem is not me, but you. You just don't understand the concepts of context, correlation and connotation.

And that’s ok.

[Nacesa Plana]

Nobody is wearing a full body suit for sunbathing.

Of course not. Nobody...

A NEW craze is sweeping beachgoers in China concerned about the harmful effects of the skin.

Full bodysuits, known as "face-kinis", which totally covers the wearer's head are proving popular on beaches in China's north-east.

Men and women are appearing on nearly every beach in Qingdao, in eastern China's Shandong province, in bodysuits where only the mouth and nose is exposed.

It's certainly weird but these "face-kinis" could be acceptable in China.

Just like the burkini is acceptable in SA. But not in France. Get over it.

[Gravlen]

So you are unable to answer my question?

I think I already answered your question a dozen times. The problem is not me, but you. You just don't understand the concepts of context, correlation and connotation.

And that’s ok.

You think wrong, so I'll try again:

What's the difference between these two?

and

What, exactly, makes one of these a symbol of oppression, while the other one is perfectly fine? How is one of them like a boy scout uniform, while the other is like a nazi uniform?

You keep saying "context" but fail to specify further. Of course, before it has been said that the context is that one of them contains a muslim woman, and that's why it's bad, but surely you don't say that the context is outright bigotry, do you?

[Gravlen]

Of course not. Nobody...

A NEW craze is sweeping beachgoers in China concerned about the harmful effects of the skin.

Full bodysuits, known as "face-kinis", which totally covers the wearer's head are proving popular on beaches in China's north-east.

Men and women are appearing on nearly every beach in Qingdao, in eastern China's Shandong province, in bodysuits where only the mouth and nose is exposed.

It's certainly weird but these "face-kinis" could be acceptable in China.

Just like the burkini is acceptable in SA. But not in France. Get over it.

Just proving you wrong.

Also, you failed - yet again - to answer my question. This is becoming routine for you now.

[Nacesa Plana]

I think I already answered your question a dozen times. The problem is not me, but you. You just don't understand the concepts of context, correlation and connotation.

And that’s ok.

You think wrong, so I'll try again:

What's the difference between these two?

and

What, exactly, makes one of these a symbol of oppression, while the other one is perfectly fine?

You keep saying "context" but fail to specify further. Of course, before it has been said that the context is that one of them contains a muslim woman, and that's why it's bad, but surely you don't say that the context is outright bigotry, do you?

The "face-kinis", the burkini and the Speedo suit have stuff in common, but it's very clear they all look very different too.

They are all used in another context and have another correlation and connotation.

Which seems not important for you, but which is the opposite in France.

This uniform might look as a scouts uniform...



...but it isn't.

For you it may feel bigoted, but many people around the world will react rather aggressive when you are wearing the above uniform in public.

However some cultures and subcultures will certainly like your Hitlerjugend uniform.

In fact, that's the heart of the matter. Many objects, signs, music, hairstyles or whatever may be acceptable in one culture, but not in another.

The context of use is also important.
Wearing a Hitlerjugend uniform in Europe during a film shoot is ok. Wearing the same suit in public isn't that wise.

You want to implement the right to be an asshole. Always and everywhere.
We ask guests to adapt themselves a bit to our culture. Not everything, but a bit.

In some countries it’s maybe ok to throw gay people from buildings, it isn’t in France. It doesn’t matter if it is a part of your culture. When you’re in France you don’t kill homosexuals. You have to adopt to our culture, laws, ethics, morality and practical uses.

Which doesn’t mean you can’t eat your kebab anymore. You certainly can.

[New Chilokver]

So why exactly are the burqa and other such items socially inacceptable in France? What context justifies this bigotry against them?

[Alvecia]

I think your comparison to nazi uniforms is inherently flawed.
Nazi uniforms are nazi uniforms because they have nazi symbology on them.
Take off the nazi symbology and they're just uniforms.

Banning the burkini for the same reasons as nazi uniforms would only make sense if the burkinis had the ISIS flag or similar on them.

[Ifreann]

So why exactly are the burqa and other such items socially inacceptable in France? What context justifies this bigotry against them?

Well you see, Muslims.

[Nacesa Plana]

So why exactly are the burqa and other such items socially inacceptable in France? What context justifies this bigotry against them?

In France they consider the burqa as a women repressing tool and the people link it with extreme Muslim fundamentalism which they link again with Muslim terrorism.

They have factual reasons to ban the burqa and emotional ones too.

It doesn't matter much if you don't agree, if you are in France you just have to accept.

Every country has specific laws, cultural and social uses.

Drinking alcohol in an American street is mostly universally condemned and even outlawed. While in many countries (Germany, Portugal, France, ...) it's socially acceptable and legal.

[Gravlen]

You think wrong, so I'll try again:

What's the difference between these two?

and

What, exactly, makes one of these a symbol of oppression, while the other one is perfectly fine?

You keep saying "context" but fail to specify further. Of course, before it has been said that the context is that one of them contains a muslim woman, and that's why it's bad, but surely you don't say that the context is outright bigotry, do you?

The "face-kinis", the burkini and the Speedo suit have stuff in common, but it's very clear they all look very different too.

For the umpteenth time, then:

What's the difference between these two?

and
Please point out the "very clear" differences between them.

They are all used in another context and have another correlation and connotation.

You say that, but you fail to back it up. I have shown before that one creator of a version of the "burkini" estimates that one fith of their sales go to non-muslims. What's the "correlation and connotation" of that?

From the creator of the burkini herself:

But Australian-Lebanese Aheda Zanetti, who claims the trademark on the name burkini and burqini and created her first swimwear for Muslim women more than a decade ago, said the furore in France has attracted more publicity for her products.

"It's just been so hectic," she told AFP.

"I can tell you that online on Sunday, we received 60 orders, all of them non-Muslim," the 48-year-old Sydney resident said, adding that she usually received ten to 12 orders on Sundays.

"A lot of the correspondence... was that they are survivors of skin cancer and they've always been looking for something like this, saying, 'Thank god we've found someone like this producing such a swimsuit'," she said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0823/811221-burkini/

Which seems not important for you, but which is the opposite in France.

France is just lashing out and not being rational about it.

This uniform might look as a scouts uniform...

(Image)

...but it isn't.

For you it may feel bigoted, but many people around the world will react rather aggressive when you are wearing the above uniform in public.

I actually don't believe you. That is to say, if you remove the nazi symbols nobody will react. The Hitlerjugend uniform which you show there was mainly a brown shirt and black shorts, with the addition of nazi symbols and flags. Without those symbols there would be no objections.

Your claim is that the swimsuit is in itself a symbol. You have failed to back up that assertion repeatedly, and have been shown to be wrong.

In fact, that's the heart of the matter. Many objects, signs, music, hairstyles or whatever may be acceptable in one culture, but not in another.

True. Saudi Arabia, Iran and France are among the people who will punish people for wearing the wrong types of clothing.

[Nacesa Plana]

The "face-kinis", the burkini and the Speedo suit have stuff in common, but it's very clear they all look very different too.

For the umpteenth time, then:

What's the difference between these two?

and
Please point out the "very clear" differences between them.

They are all used in another context and have another correlation and connotation.

You say that, but you fail to back it up. I have shown before that one creator of a version of the "burkini" estimates that one fith of their sales go to non-muslims. What's the "correlation and connotation" of that?

From the creator of the burkini herself:

But Australian-Lebanese Aheda Zanetti, who claims the trademark on the name burkini and burqini and created her first swimwear for Muslim women more than a decade ago, said the furore in France has attracted more publicity for her products.

"It's just been so hectic," she told AFP.

"I can tell you that online on Sunday, we received 60 orders, all of them non-Muslim," the 48-year-old Sydney resident said, adding that she usually received ten to 12 orders on Sundays.

"A lot of the correspondence... was that they are survivors of skin cancer and they've always been looking for something like this, saying, 'Thank god we've found someone like this producing such a swimsuit'," she said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0823/811221-burkini/

Which seems not important for you, but which is the opposite in France.

France is just lashing out and not being rational about it.

This uniform might look as a scouts uniform...

(Image)

...but it isn't.

For you it may feel bigoted, but many people around the world will react rather aggressive when you are wearing the above uniform in public.

I actually don't believe you. That is to say, if you remove the nazi symbols nobody will react. The Hitlerjugend uniform which you show there was mainly a brown shirt and black shorts, with the addition of nazi symbols and flags. Without those symbols there would be no objections.

Your claim is that the swimsuit is in itself a symbol. You have failed to back up that assertion repeatedly, and have been shown to be wrong.

In fact, that's the heart of the matter. Many objects, signs, music, hairstyles or whatever may be acceptable in one culture, but not in another.

True. Saudi Arabia, Iran and France are among the people who will punish people for wearing the wrong types of clothing.

Belgium, The Netherlands, Egypt, Switzerland, Lombardy (Italy) and more countries and regions (including several Muslim ones) banned the burka.

They are all wrong. And you are right. Naturally.

But it's ok you accept tools to repress women. As long you are doing it in your country. We might think different. Don't like it? Too bad. Don't visit France. Nobody is forcing you to come.

[Alvecia]

For the umpteenth time, then:

What's the difference between these two?

(Image) and (Image)
Please point out the "very clear" differences between them.


You say that, but you fail to back it up. I have shown before that one creator of a version of the "burkini" estimates that one fith of their sales go to non-muslims. What's the "correlation and connotation" of that?

From the creator of the burkini herself:

But Australian-Lebanese Aheda Zanetti, who claims the trademark on the name burkini and burqini and created her first swimwear for Muslim women more than a decade ago, said the furore in France has attracted more publicity for her products.

"It's just been so hectic," she told AFP.

"I can tell you that online on Sunday, we received 60 orders, all of them non-Muslim," the 48-year-old Sydney resident said, adding that she usually received ten to 12 orders on Sundays.

"A lot of the correspondence... was that they are survivors of skin cancer and they've always been looking for something like this, saying, 'Thank god we've found someone like this producing such a swimsuit'," she said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0823/811221-burkini/


France is just lashing out and not being rational about it.


I actually don't believe you. That is to say, if you remove the nazi symbols nobody will react. The Hitlerjugend uniform which you show there was mainly a brown shirt and black shorts, with the addition of nazi symbols and flags. Without those symbols there would be no objections.

Your claim is that the swimsuit is in itself a symbol. You have failed to back up that assertion repeatedly, and have been shown to be wrong.


True. Saudi Arabia, Iran and France are among the people who will punish people for wearing the wrong types of clothing.

Belgium, The Netherlands, Egypt, Switzerland, Lombardy (Italy) and more countries and regions (including several Muslim ones) banned the burka.

They are all wrong. And you are right. Naturally.

But it's ok you accept tools to repress women. As long you are doing it in your country. We might think different. Don't like it? Too bad. Don't visit France. Nobody is forcing you to come.

Is that an appeal to authority wrapped up in an appeal to popularity?

Edit: Also, by banning this "tool to repress women" you are, in a roundabout way, repressing women.

[San Marxos]

There's been more fights between football supporters than between beach goers. Aren't you really saying that the governmen should have started by banning football uniforms from public places?

Just ban the sport all together, American football or bust.

We should ban all professional sports.

[Gravlen]

For the umpteenth time, then:

What's the difference between these two?

(Image) and (Image)
Please point out the "very clear" differences between them.


You say that, but you fail to back it up. I have shown before that one creator of a version of the "burkini" estimates that one fith of their sales go to non-muslims. What's the "correlation and connotation" of that?

From the creator of the burkini herself:

But Australian-Lebanese Aheda Zanetti, who claims the trademark on the name burkini and burqini and created her first swimwear for Muslim women more than a decade ago, said the furore in France has attracted more publicity for her products.

"It's just been so hectic," she told AFP.

"I can tell you that online on Sunday, we received 60 orders, all of them non-Muslim," the 48-year-old Sydney resident said, adding that she usually received ten to 12 orders on Sundays.

"A lot of the correspondence... was that they are survivors of skin cancer and they've always been looking for something like this, saying, 'Thank god we've found someone like this producing such a swimsuit'," she said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0823/811221-burkini/


France is just lashing out and not being rational about it.


I actually don't believe you. That is to say, if you remove the nazi symbols nobody will react. The Hitlerjugend uniform which you show there was mainly a brown shirt and black shorts, with the addition of nazi symbols and flags. Without those symbols there would be no objections.

Your claim is that the swimsuit is in itself a symbol. You have failed to back up that assertion repeatedly, and have been shown to be wrong.


True. Saudi Arabia, Iran and France are among the people who will punish people for wearing the wrong types of clothing.

Belgium, The Netherlands, Egypt, Switzerland, Lombardy (Italy) and more countries and regions (including several Muslim ones) banned the burka.

They are all wrong. And you are right. Naturally.

I'm not talking about the burqa. Why are you attempting to deflect and avoid answering my questions?

But it's ok you accept tools to repress women.

I don't, hence my opposition to French authorities punishing women for wearing a certain type of swimsuit (if they happen to be muslim women).

As long you are doing it in your country. We might think different.

And you're unable and unwilling to logically defend your way of thinking. You can't show what the differences are, you can't explain why it should be banned, and you can't justify it in any way which isn't bigoted or treats women as lesser human beings.

Don't like it? Too bad. Don't visit France. Nobody is forcing you to come.

I know, that's what I've said earlier in the thread. I wouldn't want to go to France when there's a danger that my non-muslim partner, whom is fond of fully covering swimsuits because of body issues and a general anxiety disorder, might be punished for her choice of attire. Of course, if one doesn't look muslim enough, one is probably safe, but why take the risk? There are other beaches to go to.

That said, the fact that I can go elsewhere doesn't justify the levels of bigotry on display here, and it won't lessen my criticisms of such a counterproductive measure which is in violation of the rights of women.