Is religion/belief in a god inherently illogical

[Cheongji]

According most religions god is omnipotent and infinite good. He’s the creator of all and everything.

Simple question:

But why is he allowing babies with anencephaly?

A baby and certainly a foetus can’t be a sinner. There’s no way they ‘deserve’ this cruel medical condition.

It means…

• god isn’t omnipotent and the creator of all and everything.
• Or it’s possible he is, but in that case he isn’t infinite good.

If you accept one or both answers then the god as described in most religions can’t exist.

And that’s probably the most logical conclusion. God doesn’t exist. You don’t need a god to create the entire universe and life.

Inferior humans will create life from nothing pretty soon. Even the creation of an universe is within our reach. The last not tomorrow, but one day we’ll just do it.

Think about it. Don't you think God has a greater plan for us, which is beyond human comprehension? How can we conclude that God does not exist at all at this stage of the game?

[Nacesa Plana]

According most religions god is omnipotent and infinite good. He’s the creator of all and everything.

Simple question:

But why is he allowing babies with anencephaly?

A baby and certainly a foetus can’t be a sinner. There’s no way they ‘deserve’ this cruel medical condition.

It means…

• god isn’t omnipotent and the creator of all and everything.
• Or it’s possible he is, but in that case he isn’t infinite good.

If you accept one or both answers then the god as described in most religions can’t exist.

And that’s probably the most logical conclusion. God doesn’t exist. You don’t need a god to create the entire universe and life.

Inferior humans will create life from nothing pretty soon. Even the creation of an universe is within our reach. The last not tomorrow, but one day we’ll just do it.

Think about it. Don't you think God has a greater plan for us, which is beyond human comprehension? How can we conclude that God does not exist at all at this stage of the game?

It’s a variation of “God works in mysterious ways”.

But there’s not that much mystery around this simple theorem.

If he allows babies with anencephaly then he isn’t omnipotent or infinite good. Both is possible as well. At such the god as described in most religions can’t exist.

[Cheongji]

Think about it. Don't you think God has a greater plan for us, which is beyond human comprehension? How can we conclude that God does not exist at all at this stage of the game?

It’s a variation of “God works in mysterious ways”.

But there’s not that much mystery around this simple theorem.

If he allows babies with anencephaly then he isn’t omnipotent or infinite good. Both is possible as well. At such the god as described in most religions can’t exist.

Perhaps, he provided us with a way to cure it?

[Nacesa Plana]

It’s a variation of “God works in mysterious ways”.

But there’s not that much mystery around this simple theorem.

If he allows babies with anencephaly then he isn’t omnipotent or infinite good. Both is possible as well. At such the god as described in most religions can’t exist.

Perhaps, he provided us with a way to cure it?

There's no cure and we will never have a cure for anencephaly.

[Nacesa Plana]

According most religions god is omnipotent and infinite good. He’s the creator of all and everything.

Simple question:

But why is he allowing babies with anencephaly?

A baby and certainly a foetus can’t be a sinner. There’s no way they ‘deserve’ this cruel medical condition.

It means…

• god isn’t omnipotent and the creator of all and everything.
• Or it’s possible he is, but in that case he isn’t infinite good.

If you accept one or both answers then the god as described in most religions can’t exist.

And that’s probably the most logical conclusion. God doesn’t exist. You don’t need a god to create the entire universe and life.

Inferior humans will create life from nothing pretty soon. Even the creation of an universe is within our reach. The last not tomorrow, but one day we’ll just do it.

Think about it. Don't you think God has a greater plan for us, which is beyond human comprehension? How can we conclude that God does not exist at all at this stage of the game?

Also...

...in a way it ends the discussion. If you refuse the use of reasonable thinking and refuse to use your deepest moral principles to answer the existence of a god, on what can you appeal to form any conclusion?

The feeling, the breeding, a fancy?

In that case, all the people, whatever conceptualisation they have of any god (including a god that approves cannibalism, rape, incest, torture, paedophilia, human sacrifice, …), are right.

They all can say “our god works in mysterious ways”.

[Cheongji]

Think about it. Don't you think God has a greater plan for us, which is beyond human comprehension? How can we conclude that God does not exist at all at this stage of the game?

Also...

...in a way it ends the discussion. If you refuse the use of reasonable thinking and refuse to use your deepest moral principles to answer the existence of a god, on what can you appeal to form any conclusion?

The feeling, the breeding, a fancy?

In that case, all the people, whatever conceptualisation they have of any god (including a god that approves cannibalism, rape, incest, torture, paedophilia, human sacrifice, …), are right.

They all can say “our god works in mysterious ways”.

In contrast to your opinion, I prefer to stand in the gray area, not black or white. I'm just refuting your opinion, not supporting that God surely exists and there is conclusive proof of that.

[Nacesa Plana]

Also...

...in a way it ends the discussion. If you refuse the use of reasonable thinking and refuse to use your deepest moral principles to answer the existence of a god, on what can you appeal to form any conclusion?

The feeling, the breeding, a fancy?

In that case, all the people, whatever conceptualisation they have of any god (including a god that approves cannibalism, rape, incest, torture, paedophilia, human sacrifice, …), are right.

They all can say “our god works in mysterious ways”.

In contrast to your opinion, I prefer to stand in the gray area, not black or white. I'm just refuting your opinion, not supporting that God surely exists and there is conclusive proof of that.

It's a binary system. The god as described in most religions is omnipotent and infinite good. While there's clearly so much evil on this planet. Including among unborn children.

It means the described god isn't omnipotent or is at least not infinite good. Which conflicts with the description of this god.

There’s room for a god who is not almighty. Which is again contradicting the description of a god in most religions.

By instance, all Christian credo's start with "Pisteuo eis hena theon patera pantokratora".

If a god isn’t almighty, the concept of a god becomes very vague. Which powers is he still having?

Some will give god the credit for all the good stuff and say about the bad stuff “he can’t help it”. A god à la carte, the product of wishful thinking. I do have respect for the people who created this vision – from deep despair – but I have to say it’s difficult to process this one for a rational being.

[Arachno-Satinism]

old nsg is back
yes, a belief in omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator god is inherently illogical. whether that tells us anything about whether should we believe this god or not is another matter entirely

Think about it. Don't you think God has a greater plan for us, which is beyond human comprehension? How can we conclude that God does not exist at all at this stage of the game?

yes, that doesn't preclude the existence of a malevolent god, or a god indifferent to human suffering.
the question is why should I rely myself to such unpleasant, unreliable god?

[Nacesa Plana]

old nsg is back
yes, a belief in omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator god is inherently illogical. whether that tells us anything about whether should we believe this god or not is another matter entirely

Think about it. Don't you think God has a greater plan for us, which is beyond human comprehension? How can we conclude that God does not exist at all at this stage of the game?

yes, that doesn't preclude the existence of a malevolent god, or a god indifferent to human suffering.
the question is why should I rely myself to such unpleasant, unreliable god?

You still could obey such a god with your mind, but never with your heart.

From a rational and neutral viewpoint the Christian god committed several times pure genocides. He also destroyed almost entire humanity, wildlife and everything.

There’s no way I would obey with my heart such a ruthless being.

[Almonaster Nuevo]

Firstly, the OP didn't ask about an omnipotent omnibenevolent god, just about a god. There are many possible ideas of god other than the Abrahamic.

On the question of benevolence, what are the standards? Imagine a wasps nest near a children's playground. If pest control came by and destroyed the nest, most parents would consider that a benevolent act. The wasps would probably disagree. Are we the wasps or the children in this scenario?

Approaching the initial question in another way...

Are there real phenomena which cannot be experimentally verified? I think that is extremely likely.
Are there (one or more) beings which are significantly more knowledgeable and/or powerful than ourselves? Again, I would say: probably.
Are such beings capable of controlling significant aspects of the universe we cannot? Less likely, but well within logical possibility.
Were any such beings involved in the creation of our observable universe? Still possible.
Are any of them capable and interested in communicating with us? Seems unlikely, but conceivable.
Would they be bound by human concepts of morality? Very unlikely, IMHO.
If they exist, would you call it/them God(s)? I don't think we have a better term, but we need to get rid of some of the baggage.

[Nacesa Plana]

Firstly, the OP didn't ask about an omnipotent omnibenevolent god, just about a god. There are many possible ideas of god other than the Abrahamic.

On the question of benevolence, what are the standards? Imagine a wasps nest near a children's playground. If pest control came by and destroyed the nest, most parents would consider that a benevolent act. The wasps would probably disagree. Are we the wasps or the children in this scenario?

Approaching the initial question in another way...

Are there real phenomena which cannot be experimentally verified? I think that is extremely likely.
Are there (one or more) beings which are significantly more knowledgeable and/or powerful than ourselves? Again, I would say: probably.
Are such beings capable of controlling significant aspects of the universe we cannot? Less likely, but well within logical possibility.
Were any such beings involved in the creation of our observable universe? Still possible.
Are any of them capable and interested in communicating with us? Seems unlikely, but conceivable.
Would they be bound by human concepts of morality? Very unlikely, IMHO.
If they exist, would you call it/them God(s)? I don't think we have a better term, but we need to get rid of some of the baggage.

Which 'children' are protected when you give some 'wasps' anencephaly?

[Vaunyrus]

Firstly, the OP didn't ask about an omnipotent omnibenevolent god, just about a god. There are many possible ideas of god other than the Abrahamic.

On the question of benevolence, what are the standards? Imagine a wasps nest near a children's playground. If pest control came by and destroyed the nest, most parents would consider that a benevolent act. The wasps would probably disagree. Are we the wasps or the children in this scenario?

Approaching the initial question in another way...

Are there real phenomena which cannot be experimentally verified? I think that is extremely likely.
Are there (one or more) beings which are significantly more knowledgeable and/or powerful than ourselves? Again, I would say: probably.
Are such beings capable of controlling significant aspects of the universe we cannot? Less likely, but well within logical possibility.
Were any such beings involved in the creation of our observable universe? Still possible.
Are any of them capable and interested in communicating with us? Seems unlikely, but conceivable.
Would they be bound by human concepts of morality? Very unlikely, IMHO.
If they exist, would you call it/them God(s)? I don't think we have a better term, but we need to get rid of some of the baggage.

Which 'children' are protected when you give some 'wasps' anencephaly?

Let me put it in terms you may sort of get, from a view that isn't so esoteric.

The Lord God wants humans to all live out our lives, and determine what is right or wrong based on the morals he set for us within the Holy Bible, which was composed through the divine command and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Through Free Will, we must determine these things to be true, and we must determine how me should allow people to live. It is inherently our job to attempt to achieve this benevolence, because God must be benevolent for he gave us Free Will rather than rule over every aspect of our lives as a dictator.

Children with anencephaly must be allowed a chance at life, and this is something that must exist as a test of our morals. We have to run the race, that St. Peter described, and catch up with Christ.


God not allowing all people to be safe all the time proves he is benevolent, because rather than rule as a dictator, he let's us live freely and almost unaffected by him, other than the things he does give us. Many things that happen to us are trials done by him for us, and we all must face those. For some people, their children will have birth defects, for others they are more likely to become Homosexual, or drunkards. God's choice, to give us choice is one of the qualities that makes him omnibenevolent.

[Conscentia]

[...] Children with anencephaly must be allowed a chance at life, [...]

Evidently God didn't think so, given that anencephaly is fatal.

[Vaunyrus]

[...] Children with anencephaly must be allowed a chance at life, [...]

Evidently God didn't think so, given that anencephaly is fatal.

That was a metaphor.


What I meant by it is that all God does is to teach us morals so that we may achieve salvation.


It is still benevolent of him to allow us free will.

[Nacesa Plana]

Which 'children' are protected when you give some 'wasps' anencephaly?

Let me put it in terms you may sort of get, from a view that isn't so esoteric.

The Lord God wants humans to all live out our lives, and determine what is right or wrong based on the morals he set for us within the Holy Bible, which was composed through the divine command and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Through Free Will, we must determine these things to be true, and we must determine how me should allow people to live. It is inherently our job to attempt to achieve this benevolence, because God must be benevolent for he gave us Free Will rather than rule over every aspect of our lives as a dictator.

Children with anencephaly must be allowed a chance at life, and this is something that must exist as a test of our morals. We have to run the race, that St. Peter described, and catch up with Christ.


God not allowing all people to be safe all the time proves he is benevolent, because rather than rule as a dictator, he let's us live freely and almost unaffected by him, other than the things he does give us. Many things that happen to us are trials done by him for us, and we all must face those. For some people, their children will have birth defects, for others they are more likely to become Homosexual, or drunkards. God's choice, to give us choice is one of the qualities that makes him omnibenevolent.

Didn't know that babies can select if they want anencephaly or not. I'm pretty sure you don't select your sexual orientation as well.

[Vaunyrus]

Let me put it in terms you may sort of get, from a view that isn't so esoteric.

The Lord God wants humans to all live out our lives, and determine what is right or wrong based on the morals he set for us within the Holy Bible, which was composed through the divine command and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Through Free Will, we must determine these things to be true, and we must determine how me should allow people to live. It is inherently our job to attempt to achieve this benevolence, because God must be benevolent for he gave us Free Will rather than rule over every aspect of our lives as a dictator.

Children with anencephaly must be allowed a chance at life, and this is something that must exist as a test of our morals. We have to run the race, that St. Peter described, and catch up with Christ.


God not allowing all people to be safe all the time proves he is benevolent, because rather than rule as a dictator, he let's us live freely and almost unaffected by him, other than the things he does give us. Many things that happen to us are trials done by him for us, and we all must face those. For some people, their children will have birth defects, for others they are more likely to become Homosexual, or drunkards. God's choice, to give us choice is one of the qualities that makes him omnibenevolent.

Didn't know that babies can select if they want anencephaly or not. I'm pretty sure you don't select your sexual orientation as well.

I did actually select my sexuality.


I used to be asexual, then I became heterosexual. I am now a staunch orthosexual.

[Xadufell]

Let me put it in terms you may sort of get, from a view that isn't so esoteric.

The Lord God wants humans to all live out our lives, and determine what is right or wrong based on the morals he set for us within the Holy Bible, which was composed through the divine command and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Through Free Will, we must determine these things to be true, and we must determine how me should allow people to live. It is inherently our job to attempt to achieve this benevolence, because God must be benevolent for he gave us Free Will rather than rule over every aspect of our lives as a dictator.

Children with anencephaly must be allowed a chance at life, and this is something that must exist as a test of our morals. We have to run the race, that St. Peter described, and catch up with Christ.


God not allowing all people to be safe all the time proves he is benevolent, because rather than rule as a dictator, he let's us live freely and almost unaffected by him, other than the things he does give us. Many things that happen to us are trials done by him for us, and we all must face those. For some people, their children will have birth defects, for others they are more likely to become Homosexual, or drunkards. God's choice, to give us choice is one of the qualities that makes him omnibenevolent.

Didn't know that babies can select if they want anencephaly or not. I'm pretty sure you don't select your sexual orientation as well.

Well, I had a heterosexual friend who became bi-sexual and then became gay.

Soooooooo

[Alvecia]

Didn't know that babies can select if they want anencephaly or not. I'm pretty sure you don't select your sexual orientation as well.

I did actually select my sexuality.


I used to be asexual, then I became heterosexual. I am now a staunch orthosexual.

Sounds less like a series of choices and more like a developing understanding of your sexuality.

[Nacesa Plana]

Didn't know that babies can select if they want anencephaly or not. I'm pretty sure you don't select your sexual orientation as well.

I did actually select my sexuality.


I used to be asexual, then I became heterosexual. I am now a staunch orthosexual.

Are you suggesting that all homosexuals and heterosexuals select their sexual orientation?

[Vaunyrus]

I did actually select my sexuality.


I used to be asexual, then I became heterosexual. I am now a staunch orthosexual.

Sounds less like a series of choices and more like a developing understanding of your sexuality.

Deciding to label myself as orthosexual rather than heterosexual was a choice, though.


I actually only just learned about orthosexuality recently, saw it and said, "Holy shit, I want to be that."


Boom. Orthosexual rather than heterosexual.

[Vaunyrus]

I did actually select my sexuality.


I used to be asexual, then I became heterosexual. I am now a staunch orthosexual.

Are you suggesting that all homosexuals and heterosexuals select their sexual orientation?

Am I not suggesting that I selected my own sexuality? I am not.

[Alvecia]

Sounds less like a series of choices and more like a developing understanding of your sexuality.

Deciding to label myself as orthosexual rather than heterosexual was a choice, though.


I actually only just learned about orthosexuality recently, saw it and said, "Holy shit, I want to be that."


Boom. Orthosexual rather than heterosexual.

Oh. Well that's not choosing your sexuality, that's setting boundaries for your own behaviour.
It's not defining what you want, just what you do.

[Nacesa Plana]

Didn't know that babies can select if they want anencephaly or not. I'm pretty sure you don't select your sexual orientation as well.

Well, I had a heterosexual friend who became bi-sexual and then became gay.

Soooooooo

It's more likely he was gay all the time, but for several reasons tried a few other paths.

[Xadufell]

Well, I had a heterosexual friend who became bi-sexual and then became gay.

Soooooooo

It's more likely he was gay all the time, but for several reasons tried a few other paths.

No, he said that he chose to be gay, not because "He was gay all along".
I guess if he was Heterosexual but turned out to be gay the whole time means that I, a heterosexual man am actually an attack helicopter but I never knew it!

[Alvecia]

It's more likely he was gay all the time, but for several reasons tried a few other paths.

No, he said that he chose to be gay, not because "He was gay all along".

People, as it turns out, are actually very good at lying to themselves.
I'm not going to say anything for certain, cause that would imply I know your friend better than himself, but there are two other "theories" I suppose you could call them, that I can think of off the top of my head

I guess if he was Heterosexual but turned out to be gay the whole time means that I, a heterosexual man am actually an attack helicopter but I never knew it!

Come on, don't be obtuse, it means nothing of the sort.