implicationofissue274

[The New Sea Territory]

Incest does produce genetic defects in offspring

Wear a condom. Have an abortion.

The thread is about consensual sexual relationships, not necessarily having children.

that in turn increase the burden upon social welfare systems,

All birth increases the burden on social welfare systems. Are you thus an anti-natalist?

which in turn brings those social welfare systems to the point of rationing who gets care and how much, which in turn leads to laws to discourage incest in the first place.

None of this is an actual argument against incest, just a rationalization of restricting individual will based on assumptions about the legitimacy of law, society, social welfare systems, etc.

Remove the social welfare safety net entirely and incest becomes a bad idea that campaigns against itself by example.

This doesn't make it "wrong".

[The New Sea Territory]

Fuck sake, we've got taboos in our society for a reason. Some of us need to get over this "freedom freedom freedom" bullshit. There's nothing progressive about this.

Taboos, society, "progress"...all spooks that restrict my will.

Justify them, don't just assume their existence is justified and base your arguments off them.

[Big Jim P]

"But that hurts society/the nation/the family/morality/[insert spook here]! Thus we must take away your ability to choose!" /s

Incest does produce genetic defects in offspring that in turn increase the burden upon social welfare systems, which in turn brings those social welfare systems to the point of rationing who gets care and how much, which in turn leads to laws to discourage incest in the first place.

Remove the social welfare safety net entirely and incest becomes a bad idea that campaigns against itself by example.

Sex does not necessarily produce offspring. Birth control is a thing dontcha know?

[The Intergalactic Universe Corporation]

It is disgusting, but sometimes, the government has to learn to get out of the lives of the people

[Bakery Hill]

Fuck sake, we've got taboos in our society for a reason. Some of us need to get over this "freedom freedom freedom" bullshit. There's nothing progressive about this.

You think if incest was legal it suddenly wouldn't be taboo?

It'd be gradually less taboo.

But look if I were making a new set of laws, it probably wouldn't be on the books. Don't want to give the state anymore power over our private lives, I get all that shit. But of all the laws out there, I'm not fussed if this one stays in place.

At any rate my comment was more directed at the people saying "what's wrong with incest". Should have made that more obvious.

[The New Sea Territory]

Incest does produce genetic defects in offspring that in turn increase the burden upon social welfare systems, which in turn brings those social welfare systems to the point of rationing who gets care and how much, which in turn leads to laws to discourage incest in the first place.

Remove the social welfare safety net entirely and incest becomes a bad idea that campaigns against itself by example.

Sex does not necessarily produce offspring. Birth control is a thing dontcha know?

The OP even frames the question without ever bringing up children:

Is it hypocritical for progressive societies to legalize gay marriage but prohibit consensual sexual relationships between two adult aged blood relatives? If the law shouldn't exclude LGBT relationships within the realm of acceptability then should it give equal favor to adult consensual incest?

[The New Sea Territory]

At any rate my comment was more directed at the people saying "what's wrong with incest". Should have made that more obvious.

But your comment was basically "muh morals" or "because taboo". It didn't actually answer the question...because there isn't anything objectively wrong with incest.

[Socialist Tera]

No. I could imagine it being used in fucked up ways.

[Bakery Hill]

Fuck sake, we've got taboos in our society for a reason. Some of us need to get over this "freedom freedom freedom" bullshit. There's nothing progressive about this.

Taboos, society, "progress"...all spooks that restrict my will.

Justify them, don't just assume their existence is justified and base your arguments off them.

You know I often get the feeling that Stirner's only really good for niche anarcho memes.

The taboos against incest exists not only to safeguard against genetic defects, in the long run, but to ensure social boundaries and keep our communities together and functional day to day. It's been that way for thousands of years, across almost every society I can think of, no matter the conditions.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

At any rate my comment was more directed at the people saying "what's wrong with incest". Should have made that more obvious.

But your comment was basically "muh morals" or "because taboo". It didn't actually answer the question...because there isn't anything objectively wrong with incest.

Depends on what you mean with "objectively wrong".

If you mean sex isn't bad then sure, sex isn't bad and if it is consensual then it's even better.

But things are not as simple.

[Quokkastan]

No. I could imagine it being used in fucked up ways.

Think about this a lot, do you?

Ignoring that the government sticking it's head into your bedroom is already all kinds of fucked up, what specific problem to you foresee that isn't covered logically by "adult" and "consensual?"

[Darjihad]

Fuck sake, we've got taboos in our society for a reason. Some of us need to get over this "freedom freedom freedom" bullshit. There's nothing progressive about this.

You think if incest was legal it suddenly wouldn't be taboo?

Incest does produce genetic defects in offspring that in turn increase the burden upon social welfare systems, which in turn brings those social welfare systems to the point of rationing who gets care and how much, which in turn leads to laws to discourage incest in the first place.

Remove the social welfare safety net entirely and incest becomes a bad idea that campaigns against itself by example.

You think that the mere fact of incest being legal would cause people to want to impregnate their relatives in such great numbers that it would make an appreciable impact on social welfare?

Is incest being illegal the only thing that keeps you from having unprotected sex with relatives?

I don't find any of my relatives particularly attractive, and even if I did, there's the consent issue. But further, the taboo against contemplating such things is there. My thought experimenting only goes,so far before I reach for the puke bucket.

[Quokkastan]

Taboos, society, "progress"...all spooks that restrict my will.

Justify them, don't just assume their existence is justified and base your arguments off them.

You know I often get the feeling that Stirner's only really good for niche anarcho memes.

The taboos against incest exists not only to safeguard against genetic defects, in the long run, but to ensure social boundaries and keep our communities together and functional day to day. It's been that way for thousands of years, across almost every society I can think of, no matter the conditions.

I want to see the data that supports this conclusion.

Because that's an argument that can be made for literally any traditional practice.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Taboos, society, "progress"...all spooks that restrict my will.

Justify them, don't just assume their existence is justified and base your arguments off them.

You know I often get the feeling that Stirner's only really good for niche anarcho memes.

The taboos against incest exists not only to safeguard against genetic defects, in the long run, but to ensure social boundaries and keep our communities together and functional day to day. It's been that way for thousands of years, across almost every society I can think of, no matter the conditions.

It's not a matter of sex being bad though. You can have sex with whomever you want.

It's a matter of the relationships around you.

It doesn't justify it being illegal, but there's the fact that it is simply a bad idea. It doesn't work as well as it sounds when you put it into terms of "it's two people who they love each other, nothing wrong with that!".

[Socialist Tera]

No. I could imagine it being used in fucked up ways.

Think about this a lot, do you?

Ignoring that the government sticking it's head into your bedroom is already all kinds of fucked up, what specific problem to you foresee that isn't covered logically by "adult" and "consensual?"

No, it's literally the first thought because I know of women who have lived with pedophilia fathers. It would be "consent to sex or gtfo". I can see it being used in coercive ways where they have no choice or be homeless.

[The New Sea Territory]

No. I could imagine it being used in fucked up ways.

Puny.

---

You know I often get the feeling that Stirner's only really good for niche anarcho memes.

That's not an argument. Stirner's concept of the spook is incredibly important to anarchism, to keep us from ended up like Proudhon: an irrelevant, arrogant, moralizing intellectual vanguard who appealed to abstractions to justify his overthrow of other abstractions that didn't actually do anything productive or overthrow anything in his life.

The taboos against incest exists not only to safeguard against genetic defects,

Condoms and abortion, and the thread is about sexual relationships, not necessarily children.

in the long run, but to ensure social boundaries and keep our communities together and functional day to day.

Why is ensuring social boundaries good? Why are some social boundaries good, but others (like class or nationality) bad? Why is "functional" a justification for restricting individual will (such arguments can be dangerous when applied to other areas)?

It's been that way for thousands of years, across almost every society I can think of, no matter the conditions.

Not an argument.

People have been fucking their siblings for thousands of years, across every society, no matter the conditions. Does this ethically defend incest? No! So why would the inverse (your argument) do so?

[Godular]

Think about this a lot, do you?

Ignoring that the government sticking it's head into your bedroom is already all kinds of fucked up, what specific problem to you foresee that isn't covered logically by "adult" and "consensual?"

No, it's literally the first thought because I know of women who have lived with pedophilia fathers. It would be "consent to sex or gtfo". I can see it being used in coercive ways where they have no choice or be homeless.

Coerced consent is not consent.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No. I could imagine it being used in fucked up ways.

Think about this a lot, do you?

Ignoring that the government sticking it's head into your bedroom is already all kinds of fucked up, what specific problem to you foresee that isn't covered logically by "adult" and "consensual?"

I see one particular problem and that has to do with the fact that any relationship among siblings is going to have, by default, power dynamics which are unequal for one party simply by rule of older sibling/younger sibling.

In other words, there's the issue of authority when it comes to consent.

Also, there's the fact that not many families would roll with it and not think the two persons into it are fucked up in the head.

But of course, like I said, that doesn't exactly justify it being illegal.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

There's not enough evidence to support anything but nonenforcement. Or reason really...you think two incestuous people are gonna prance around preaching it? And why should we worry about a potential future? Will everyone be a Habsburg Wreath that produces shitty children?
Found a woman on Reddit from Sweden who said she and her brother had it tight for five years until they drifted apart romantically, but that's her anecdote and Sweden still has that shit illegal.

[Quokkastan]

You think if incest was legal it suddenly wouldn't be taboo?


You think that the mere fact of incest being legal would cause people to want to impregnate their relatives in such great numbers that it would make an appreciable impact on social welfare?

Is incest being illegal the only thing that keeps you from having unprotected sex with relatives?

I don't find any of my relatives particularly attractive, and even if I did, there's the consent issue. But further, the taboo against contemplating such things is there. My thought experimenting only goes,so far before I reach for the puke bucket.

Exactly.

Most people find incest disgusting. Even if they find it arousing in fiction they still tend to find the thought of it gross when applied to their own family members.

In order for your nightmare scenario to occur, not only must I - Joe Everyman - be an exception to the rule, but also a family member has to be an exception to the rule, and we both have to be of the opinion that it's a good idea to have children with each other, and this has to happen in such numbers that it impacts society in a meaningful way.

Which is to say, it's never going to happen. You're pointlessly scaremongering.

[The New Sea Territory]

But your comment was basically "muh morals" or "because taboo". It didn't actually answer the question...because there isn't anything objectively wrong with incest.

Depends on what you mean with "objectively wrong".

If you mean sex isn't bad then sure, sex isn't bad and if it is consensual then it's even better.

But things are not as simple.

Things are not simple, which is why saying "incest is wrong" is a non-argument; it's a moral absolute, and no moral absolutes have been actually proven to exist.

[Twilight Imperium]

Some of us need to get over this "freedom freedom freedom" bullshit.

NSG 2016: "some of us need to get over this 'freedom' bullshit"

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No, it's literally the first thought because I know of women who have lived with pedophilia fathers. It would be "consent to sex or gtfo". I can see it being used in coercive ways where they have no choice or be homeless.

Coerced consent is not consent.

Then no familial relationship is safe.

There's always a disparity of power. Siblings or parents always have power struggles while growing up and even as adults.

[Godular]

Depends on what you mean with "objectively wrong".

If you mean sex isn't bad then sure, sex isn't bad and if it is consensual then it's even better.

But things are not as simple.

Things are not simple, which is why saying "incest is wrong" is a non-argument; it's a moral absolute, and no moral absolutes have been actually proven to exist.

Killing somebody is pretty rude.

[Darjihad]

Incest does produce genetic defects in offspring that in turn increase the burden upon social welfare systems, which in turn brings those social welfare systems to the point of rationing who gets care and how much, which in turn leads to laws to discourage incest in the first place.

Remove the social welfare safety net entirely and incest becomes a bad idea that campaigns against itself by example.

Sex does not necessarily produce offspring. Birth control is a thing dontcha know?

Hmmm. I must be doing it wrong.