Aleppo Crisis

[Geilinor]

Strawman.

Venezuela: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism
Syria: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism

Not much of a strawman here. Maybe I could leave out the hypothetical death squads in Venezuela thing? Okay then, do you support the US sanctions against Venezuela?

I don't see you complaining about Russian imperialism in Syria.

[New Werpland]

Wow, this is disturbing.

PHR has documented 307 attacks on medical facilities and the deaths of 670 medical personnel in Syria since the start of the conflict in March 2011 through the end of August 2015. Syrian government forces have been responsible for more than 90 percent of these attacks, each of which constitutes a war crime.

http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/press/press-releases/russian-warplanes-strike-medical-facilities-in-syria.html
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/press/press-releases/aleppo-region-suffers-worst-week-of-hospital-attacks-since-syrian-conflict-began.html

I suppose those medical personnel were all members of al-Qaeda?

And to make it better Russia also joined in on the fun of bombing hospitals. Good thing it's not imperialism when they do it.

[Novus America]

Again this is a much bigger thing than ISIS. A lot of people in Syria hate ISIS and Assad.

Surely the Russians can find somebody more competent than Assad. I mean really. The guy is Trump level stupid. You missed the point. Propping up an incompetent corrupt minority dictator does not make him more competent, less corrupt, or less divisive.

We have seen this before. You do not want another Diem or Al Maliki (well he was not a minority but still incompetent and corrupt.

Umm your source does not say China will pay for it. It says China is willing to "help" with the construction. The money and resources have to come from somewhere, and China gives nothing for free. And Syria has no resources that China can seize in exchange for loans.

And the intial bombing is the cheap and easy part. The reconstruction is where the real "fun" begins. It always starts out looking easy. It is still a snake pit. Have fun though. Better the Russians than us.

We'll see what the Syrians do after ISIS has been removed from Syria. If there's as deep hatred of Assad as you allege, he'll be removed too. If that's not the case, he won't be. I'm not going to claim that I know how most Syrians feel about Assad. Oh, and generally speaking "help with the construction" means pay for reconstruction. Of course it won't be free money, it'll be loans. Syria has some resources:

http://www.indexmundi.com/energy/?country=sy
http://www.indexmundi.com/minerals/?cou ... production

so those can be used as collateral. We'll see what happens with reconstruction, but I doubt it'll be anywhere near the astronomical sums that were spent on Iraq. And if Iraq failed with that astronomical expenditure, whereas Syria succeeds with much less, well, that'd be pretty embarrassing, wouldn't it?

Again even if ISIS is removed, that will not fix Syria's problems. ISIS is just one symptom, not the disease.

And there are degrees of help. Providing some help is different than footing the whole bill. How much will the whole thing cost? And how much will China be willing to lend? And long term Chinese loans often hurt rather than help as the come with onerous and dangerous strings attached. Being forced to surrender your resources to China is not going to help your ecnomy long term.

Well the amount we spent on Iraq was embarrassing enough. Our State Department cannot handle money to save their life, and the corrupt Iraqi government we stupidly put into power stole it. But this is another problem. How can Assad be trusted to manage an economy when he clearly lacks the ability to do so? I gues you could remove all his powers to handle any money or ecnomic decisions, but again why have him at all?

In the event reconstruction actually does occur, we will have to see whether or not or will be sucessful though. It could easily fail miserably. China does not have a good record on these things anyways. They poured lots of money into Venezuela. Did not turn out so well.

[Novus America]

Venezuela: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism
Syria: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism

Not much of a strawman here. Maybe I could leave out the hypothetical death squads in Venezuela thing? Okay then, do you support the US sanctions against Venezuela?

I don't see you complaining about Russian imperialism in Syria.

For him Imperialism = America. He blindly hates America so will support anybody who claims to oppose America, regardless of their actual ideology.

Imperialism is a word just as abused a Fascism. It had meaning, but now is just a meaningless buzzword hurled around.

[Novus America]

According to Bloomberg market in 2015

Syria had

Once a promising economy and even a destination for refugees from other conflicts, Syria has transformed into the Middle East's biggest humanitarian and economic disaster of the past 25 years.

Syria while not perfect was chugging along. I still think the ordinary Syrians who wanted change prefer things not to have gotten out of hand like they have. In the end, they know that the destruction of there economy and infrastructure would make matters much worse.

It was still corrupt and very poor. It only had a sad So corrupt and poor the people were desperate enough to rebel. Starving farmers is not a good ecnomy. And What matters is what the Syrian ecnomy is doing now. You cannot go magically go back to some past time.

Yes things are worse now economically then they were. But it was bad before and the cat is already out of the bag.

But numbers wise even before the war Syria had a much lower GDP per capita than Iraq and Libya. Iraq and Libya have better 2015 numbers (even after the wars) than Syria had in 2010 (before the wars).

[Hassenbach]

Honestly, the Syrian Arab Army just needs to march into Aleppo and destroy the FSA and other terrorist rats infesting it.

[Novus America]

Ha, ha.

I have not forgotten Libya and Iraq. Have you forgotten Syria?!

Syria is MUCH WORSE. Sure Iraq and Libya suck, but they suck LESS than Syria! So becoming Libya would be a huge improvement. Iraq and Libya have more stability, less killings and better economies. Objectively they are better by any measure. Sure they have shit economies, shit stability and plenty of killings. Just Syria sets the bar so damn low they can easily beat it. Considering Syria is just about the worst in the world right now.

So your arguement is invalid.
But yeah the rebels suck too. Still they cannot be much worse. But meh, Syria is a hopeless case anyways. Nobody is going to bring prosperity and stability. Not the rebels. But certainly not Assad.

I say just give it to Jordan, but I doubt they would take it.

And again becoming part of the ebul (no longer US dominated) Workd could not be much worse. The vast majority of countries in the world are FAR BETTER than Syria. And those worse the "anti imperialist" ones. Again if Syria was not already one of the worst countries int the world you might have a point. But Syria is one of the worst in the world.

On the feudal thing yes they are not de jure. But Syria does have a de facto monarchy and nobility that own the land and make the peasants work it.

Nice circular logic there, bro.

- Rebels start a civil war
- Half the country gets blown to hell because of civil war
--> Oh noes! War brings destruction! Surely Syria is a terrible place to live!

Guess what? France was a terrible place to live during the world wars. Much of the US was a quite terrible place to live during the Civil War.
War tends to, you know, destroy countries.

Umm despite their civil wars Libya and Iraq are doing better. In fact Libya and Iraq have better 2015 (with war) economies than Syria had in 2010 (before the war).

Besides this is a civil war. Civil wars only happen when a government miserably fails.

And Assad arguably started it by torturing and murrderinv people who spoke out against his gross corruption and mismanagement. Regardless it was his failures that made people desperate enough to rebel.

On the US Civil War everyone agrees James Buchanan was a horrible president, largely considered the worst president in US history. Because a civil war starting under you in no small part due to your gross incompetence means you suck at leading. And guess what?

The US got a new government and major government reforms after the war. Nobody ever thought to keep Buchanan in power or return him to power. Because it would have been a stupid idea.

[Novus America]

Okay, I apologize. I will admit my post wasn't very seriously thought out. That said, what do you mean as being part of the fold? I would imagine that every country is to some extent and that Syria, regardless, would be as well. Can you define or put limits on what you mean by a nation including itself in the fold?

I mean nations that completely surrender their economies to foreign corporations and economical superpowers. Like much of the African continent does. African leaders who try to change that have an unfortunate tendency to die horribly.

Unless those companies are from China and the ecnomic power is China (like Venezuela has). Then it is totally okay because reasons.

[New Axiom]

Welcome to Syria.

[Novus America]

Yes. Yes it is important. To bad Assad gave zero fucks about the water thing. He even sucks at the dictator thing.

You heard it here first, folks. Assad is to blame for global warming!

Gues what? Circumstances change. Bad things happen. Good leaders solve problems. They do not make them worse. Plenty of othe countries (well pretty much every country) has handled droughts better. Without civil wars.

Droughts can be mitigated. Israel has not suffered despite being in the same region. Why? Because they invested in water recycling, water reclamation, and desalinization. Had Assad invested in those things instead of stealing the people's money there would not be this problem. Or had he instead of stealing all the people's money used it to help the farmers. If many other things. When a drought happens you have many ways to address it. Torturing people is not the solution.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2011-04-23/s ... -all-began

Plus the problems were much ore than just the drought. Shocking poverty, soaring living costs, and declining living standards played a role as well.
https://web.archive.org/web/20121005152 ... evances-an

[Kubra]

Nice circular logic there, bro.

- Rebels start a civil war
- Half the country gets blown to hell because of civil war
--> Oh noes! War brings destruction! Surely Syria is a terrible place to live!

Guess what? France was a terrible place to live during the world wars. Much of the US was a quite terrible place to live during the Civil War.
War tends to, you know, destroy countries.

Umm despite their civil wars Libya and Iraq are doing better. In fact Libya and Iraq have better 2015 (with war) economies than Syria had in 2010 (before the war).

Besides this is a civil war. Civil wars only happen when a government miserably fails.

And Assad arguably started it by torturing and murrderinv people who spoke out against his gross corruption and mismanagement. Regardless it was his failures that made people desperate enough to rebel.

On the US Civil War everyone agrees James Buchanan was a horrible president, largely cobsidered the worst president in US history. Because a civil war starting under you in no small part do to your gross incompetence means you suck a leading. And guess what? The U got a new government and major government reforms after the war. Nobody ever thought to keep Buchanan in power or return him to power. Because it would have been a stupid idea.

Ok this one instance is unfair, usually you'd be right but in the case of the American civil war it's unfair
that was a conflict that was gonna happen at some point, idk how you figure it could have been averted.
not that the syrian civil war is necessarily of the same nature, I just take exception to the american civil war bit

[The Combine Force]

I have no idea why the West ignores this.

[Kubra]

I have no idea why the West ignores this.

It's the olympics right now
olympics are more fun, sry not sry

[Novus America]

Umm despite their civil wars Libya and Iraq are doing better. In fact Libya and Iraq have better 2015 (with war) economies than Syria had in 2010 (before the war).

Besides this is a civil war. Civil wars only happen when a government miserably fails.

And Assad arguably started it by torturing and murrderinv people who spoke out against his gross corruption and mismanagement. Regardless it was his failures that made people desperate enough to rebel.

On the US Civil War everyone agrees James Buchanan was a horrible president, largely cobsidered the worst president in US history. Because a civil war starting under you in no small part do to your gross incompetence means you suck a leading. And guess what? The U got a new government and major government reforms after the war. Nobody ever thought to keep Buchanan in power or return him to power. Because it would have been a stupid idea.

Ok this one instance is unfair, usually you'd be right but in the case of the American civil war it's unfair
that was a conflict that was gonna happen at some point, idk how you figure it could have been averted.
not that the syrian civil war is necessarily of the same nature, I just take exception to the american civil war bit

Well sure, it was a very different situation. I did not bring it up. And yes it was basically unavoidable. But Buchanan made this worse, not better. But this only says Assad is even worse than Buchanan. At least Buchanan has the "it was going to happen despite my dumbassery" excuse.

This goes back to my orginal point, that when a leader and government fail, you get a new leader and make serious reforms.

[The Combine Force]

I have no idea why the West ignores this.

It's the olympics right now
olympics are more fun, sry not sry

kek.

"muh Olympicz"

[Kubra]

Ok this one instance is unfair, usually you'd be right but in the case of the American civil war it's unfair
that was a conflict that was gonna happen at some point, idk how you figure it could have been averted.
not that the syrian civil war is necessarily of the same nature, I just take exception to the american civil war bit

Well sure, it was a very different situation. I did not bring it up. And yes it was basically unavoidable. But Buchanan made this worse, not better. But this only says Assad is even worse than Buchanan. At least Buchanan has the "it was going to happen despite my dumbassery" excuse.

I mean, this civil war was sort of inevitable, insofar as it's been a resentful sunni majority ruled by the most hated of hated minorities in the country. There was a few efforts to alleviate that divide, right up to one of the assads (I can't recall which) trying to make the alawites basically sunni, but y'know that obviously wasn't gonna work.
Civil war might not necessarily have been inevitable, but some transfer of power not in favour of the alawites certainly was, and that paranoid lot probably prefer civil war.

[Kubra]

It's the olympics right now
olympics are more fun, sry not sry

kek.

"muh Olympicz"

there could literally be a civil war outside my home and I'd still prefer to watch table tennis

[The Combine Force]

kek.

"muh Olympicz"

there could literally be a civil war outside my home and I'd still prefer to watch table tennis

I wouldn't expect more of today's society.

[Novus America]

Well sure, it was a very different situation. I did not bring it up. And yes it was basically unavoidable. But Buchanan made this worse, not better. But this only says Assad is even worse than Buchanan. At least Buchanan has the "it was going to happen despite my dumbassery" excuse.

I mean, this civil war was sort of inevitable, insofar as it's been a resentful sunni majority ruled by the most hated of hated minorities in the country. There was a few efforts to alleviate that divide, right up to one of the assads (I can't recall which) trying to make the alawites basically sunni, but y'know that obviously wasn't gonna work.
Civil war might not necessarily have been inevitable, but some transfer of power not in favour of the alawites certainly was, and that paranoid lot probably prefer civil war.

Well true, but this goes back to the point that an Allawite tribal dictatorship is not the way to go.

Had the Assad family never illegally seized power via coup in the first place that particular issue would not exist.

Which all goes back to the point that Syria needs a new government and leadership. It does not have to be the rebels, who are too much of a divided and mixed bag. It does not need be democracy either. I mean I prefer elected government when there can be a good one but I would be willing to consider other options in this case. A idiot elected leader like Al Maliki is not the solution, but neither is an idiot unelected one like Assad. If a secular dictator is needed, fine.

But it has to be someone with a clue.

[Kubra]

there could literally be a civil war outside my home and I'd still prefer to watch table tennis

I wouldn't expect more of today's society.

well I mean table tennis
cmon man you can't shit on the most noble of all olympic sports

I mean, this civil war was sort of inevitable, insofar as it's been a resentful sunni majority ruled by the most hated of hated minorities in the country. There was a few efforts to alleviate that divide, right up to one of the assads (I can't recall which) trying to make the alawites basically sunni, but y'know that obviously wasn't gonna work.
Civil war might not necessarily have been inevitable, but some transfer of power not in favour of the alawites certainly was, and that paranoid lot probably prefer civil war.

Well true, but this goes back to the point that an Allawite tribal dictatorship is not the way to go.

Had the Assad family never illegally seized power via coup in the first place that particular issue would not exist.

the alawites might be back in a position of persecution tho
even though they sort of are right now lol full circle
But in any case, can't blame em, they saw a chance to get on top and took it.

[The Combine Force]

I mean, this civil war was sort of inevitable, insofar as it's been a resentful sunni majority ruled by the most hated of hated minorities in the country. There was a few efforts to alleviate that divide, right up to one of the assads (I can't recall which) trying to make the alawites basically sunni, but y'know that obviously wasn't gonna work.
Civil war might not necessarily have been inevitable, but some transfer of power not in favour of the alawites certainly was, and that paranoid lot probably prefer civil war.

Well true, but this goes back to the point that an Allawite tribal dictatorship is not the way to go.

Had the Assad family never illegally seized power via coup in the first place that particular issue would not exist.

So you're saying you'd rather support the FSA which is only moderate because it doesn't wear masks and cuts heads off with knives instead of swords? Nice try.

[Kubra]

Well true, but this goes back to the point that an Allawite tribal dictatorship is not the way to go.

Had the Assad family never illegally seized power via coup in the first place that particular issue would not exist.

So you're saying you'd rather support the FSA which is only moderate because it doesn't wear masks and cuts heads off with knives instead of swords? Nice try.

Assad tended to prefer artillery. Indirect fire makes for better press than stabbing, you see.

[The Combine Force]

So you're saying you'd rather support the FSA which is only moderate because it doesn't wear masks and cuts heads off with knives instead of swords? Nice try.

Assad tended to prefer artillery. Indirect fire makes for better press than stabbing, you see.

Hmm... did Assad's soldiers eat hearts of civilians? Nope.

[Dushan]

The sooner the Siege of Aleppo is over - and that means one side, likelist Assad one has won - it the better for most of the Civilian Population.

All this humanitarian whinery and neocon wankery ain't gonna change this.

tl;dr: Total War = Shortest War.

[Kubra]

Assad tended to prefer artillery. Indirect fire makes for better press than stabbing, you see.

Hmm... did Assad's soldiers eat hearts of civilians? Nope.

A bit of bad press there, but bad press and good press is merely that. Heart eating sounds so horrible, doesn't it? Much more horrible compared to, say, 20,000 to 40,000 dead after a night of bombardment followed by house-to-house sweeps for potential insurgents. The latter sounds almost like war, there's nothing shocking about battle headlines, even though it's an incident that predates the syrian civil war. Just how it reads, innit?