Aleppo Crisis

[Alsheb]

And which rebel group is going to improve that? Even the most "moderate" rebels have an agenda of including Syria entirely in the fold of the globalised, US-dominated economy. Which would be destructive for all except for the new rich that would develop.

That is, like, your opinion. People within the fold of the "globalised, US-dominated economy" seem to live much more improved lives than those outside of it.

Tell that to Sub-Saharan Africa.

[Geilinor]

That is, like, your opinion. People within the fold of the "globalised, US-dominated economy" seem to live much more improved lives than those outside of it.

Tell that to Sub-Saharan Africa.

Sub-Saharan Africa was poor before the economy was as globalized as it is now. There are also examples of Sub-Saharan African countries that aren't doing so badly, such as Botswana and Gabon.

[The balkens]

Tell that to Sub-Saharan Africa.

Sub-Saharan Africa was poor before the economy was as globalized as it is now.

Its clearly the white mans fault.

[Parhe]

That is, like, your opinion. People within the fold of the "globalised, US-dominated economy" seem to live much more improved lives than those outside of it.

Tell that to Sub-Saharan Africa.

Okay, I apologize. I will admit my post wasn't very seriously thought out. That said, what do you mean as being part of the fold? I would imagine that every country is to some extent and that Syria, regardless, would be as well. Can you define or put limits on what you mean by a nation including itself in the fold?

[Communist Xomaniax]

Syria's civil war was apparently partially caused by a drought. I'm not sure how true that actually is.

But in any case, Syria should've invested in desalination plants regardless of how expensive it is. So far as the salt byproduct goes, it should not be dumped back into the ocean- it has to be stored for use or disposed of. There is this idea I really like if it can be made practical. Brine can perhaps be converted to magnesium oxide which can absorb carbon dioxide. Using solar power, it can help de-acidify the oceans.

Why invest in making the lives of your citizenry better when you can just pocket the money?

[Saiwania]

Why invest in making the lives of your citizenry better when you can just pocket the money?

Keeping the water and food supply going is probably the single most important thing. You can't have civilization without it. Even if you're a dictator, it is in their long term interests to at least keep their subjects placated. If there is no water, that has got to be a very serious problem.

[Novus America]

The Syrian Communist party is a corrupt show party. That exists only to give the regime cover. I guess some people fall for it.

And it makes sense Communists would support the people rebelling against Assad's hereditary fiefdom. Syria has crushing poverty and wealth inequality. Assad and his family and cronies are incredibly rich while most people are very poor.

And which rebel group is going to improve that? Even the most "moderate" rebels have an agenda of including Syria entirely in the fold of the globalised, US-dominated economy. Which would be destructive for all except for the new rich that would develop.

Also, please stop making a fool of yourself by bring up feudalism. Is there a caste of hereditary nobility ranks that inherit lands? No. Does Syria practice serfdom? No. Feudalism is a political and economical system where land is the main economic product and inhabitants are tied to the soil and the lord that rules it. No matter what your opinion of Syria is, comparing it to medieval economy is just plain stupid.

Is Syria capitalist? Yes, and you'll see the Communist Party making several harsh critiques about the liberalisations that Bashar al-Assad has undertaken, moving away from the economical plan his father had. But then again, even Venezuela is still capitalist, and so are most countries in the world, even those progressive nations that are trying to move out of the fold of western domination.

The opinion of the Syrian communists is expressed pretty well in this interview: http://socialistunity.com/interview-wit ... -in-syria/

It would be ridiculous and plain stupid to side with imperialism, with the FSA and al-Nusra just because we oppose Assad's libera economic reforms. Everyone with even half a brain cell can already now see where a rebel victory would lead to. Are we so forgetful that we have already forgotten Libya? Or even Iraq, where there was actually an oppressive dictatorship in power, which since 2003 has been replaced with something even worse? Like seriously, are we that stupid?

Ha, ha.

I have not forgotten Libya and Iraq. Have you forgotten Syria?!

Syria is MUCH WORSE. Sure Iraq and Libya suck, but they suck LESS than Syria! So becoming Libya would be a huge improvement. Iraq and Libya have more stability, less killings and better economies. Objectively they are better by any measure. Sure they have shit economies, shit stability and plenty of killings. Just Syria sets the bar so damn low they can easily beat it. Considering Syria is just about the worst in the world right now.

So your arguement is invalid.
But yeah the rebels suck too. Still they cannot be much worse. But meh, Syria is a hopeless case anyways. Nobody is going to bring prosperity and stability. Not the rebels. But certainly not Assad.

I say just give it to Jordan, but I doubt they would take it.

And again becoming part of the ebul (no longer US dominated) Workd could not be much worse. The vast majority of countries in the world are FAR BETTER than Syria. And those worse the "anti imperialist" ones. Again if Syria was not already one of the worst countries int the world you might have a point. But Syria is one of the worst in the world.

On the feudal thing yes they are not de jure. But Syria does have a de facto monarchy and nobility that own the land and make the peasants work it.

[Novus America]

Why invest in making the lives of your citizenry better when you can just pocket the money?

Keeping the water and food supply going is probably the single most important thing. You can't have civilization without it. Even if you're a dictator, it is in their long term interests to at least keep their subjects placated. If there is no water, that has got to be a very serious problem.

Yes. Yes it is important. To bad Assad gave zero fucks about the water thing. He even sucks at the dictator thing.

[Novus America]

Russia's "wise mediation" has not produced any working plan to solve Syria's long term problems. Sure the Kurds and Assad are no longer fighting much, largely because Assad has few forces or control in or near most Kurdish areas. After the Kurds drove the regime out of most Kurdish areas, they no longer needed to fight Assad much. And Assad has little ability to fight the Kurds at this point.

Unless Assad is willing to agree to de facto indepedence for the Kurd's, there is still a conflict.

The Russians and Kurds do not have the same long term objectives. The Kurds have no interest in supporting the Assad regime for geopolitical purpose and base access. A common enemey does not mean you have all of the same objectives.

Oh noes, the Russians and the Kurds don't have the exact same objectives? That poor strawawoman, you really annihilated her! Kurds want to create an independent Kurdistan. Having a de facto independent Kurdistan, that's de jure a part of Syria, certainly helps. That's also what the Russians want. Hmm, those objectives seem to align... As for Assad, he'll shut up about the Kurds, and work on reconstruction after ISIS is destroyed. Even he should realize that without Russia's aid, he won't be able to take on the Kurds, and the Russians have no reason to fuck with the Kurds.

Umm we have given up on the two war doctrine. If we are attacked by two adversaries at once we cannot adequately respond.

So if America is attacked by Grenada and Panama, the response will be inadequate?

Umm even IF ISIS is destroyed, Syria will still be a war torn shit hole. The problems go much deeper than ISIS you know. Maybe Assad will shut up about the Kurds. Maybe.

And who is going to pay for the reconstruction? Assuming it ever happens.

Now surely you have heard of Vietnam. The US tried to prop up a corrupt incompetent minority dictator their too... It did not work.

Probabably time Russia made Assad disappear. You can still have a secular dictator if you like, just pick a smarter and more competent one. Does Russia really want to hold Assad's hand fore decades eh?

But anyways have fun with Syria. Glad the Russians decided to jump into that snake pit rather than us.

[Bhikkustan]

This is where I realise that we need a new roman or Ottoman Empire to keep this region in check.

[Freefall11111]

Then there's no reason to think they exist, and no reason to think Syria is socialist.

Nice of you to admit to it, at least.

Venezuela isn't Socialist. So does that mean I should support US-armed death squads if they were to pour in tomorrow and start decapitating people?

Strawman.

[Shofercia]

Oh noes, the Russians and the Kurds don't have the exact same objectives? That poor strawawoman, you really annihilated her! Kurds want to create an independent Kurdistan. Having a de facto independent Kurdistan, that's de jure a part of Syria, certainly helps. That's also what the Russians want. Hmm, those objectives seem to align... As for Assad, he'll shut up about the Kurds, and work on reconstruction after ISIS is destroyed. Even he should realize that without Russia's aid, he won't be able to take on the Kurds, and the Russians have no reason to fuck with the Kurds.




So if America is attacked by Grenada and Panama, the response will be inadequate?

Umm even IF ISIS is destroyed, Syria will still be a war torn shit hole. The problems go much deeper than ISIS you know. Maybe Assad will shut up about the Kurds. Maybe.

And who is going to pay for the reconstruction? Assuming it ever happens.

Now surely you have heard of Vietnam. The US tried to prop up a corrupt incompetent minority dictator their too... It did not work.

Probabably time Russia made Assad disappear. You can still have a secular dictator if you like, just pick a smarter and more competent one. Does Russia really want to hold Assad's hand fore decades eh?

But anyways have fun with Syria. Glad the Russians decided to jump into that snake pit rather than us.

China will pay for Syria's reconstruction: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160 ... syria.html

I've heard about Vietnam, and the VietCong wasn't exactly known for raping women like ISIS is. Kind of makes a difference when you alienate half of the population because you cannot keep it in your pants. And yeah, Syria's being "very costly" for Russia, it costs all of $82 million per month: http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/03/shocki ... ry-is.html

[Rangila]

This is where I realise that we need a new roman or Ottoman Empire to keep this region in check.

Or, we could just leave their leaders in power. Kids in Syria could go to school without fear of being hit by gunfire or indiscriminate rebel bombings before the west started supporting the "moderate" Free Syrian Army. But now, seen as we're funding and arming the same people who committed 9/11, Syria has been decimated.

[Costa Fierro]

Syria's civil war was apparently partially caused by a drought. I'm not sure how true that actually is.

Sort of. The drought occurred between 2007 and 2010 but it's effects were still being felt well into 2011, in particular the food prices which shot up because of widespread crop failure, as well as mass migration to the cities by poor rural families looking for work because their livelihoods literally dried up. Combine the religious tensions, where the vast majority of the urban poor in Syria who were Sunni Muslims, free market reforms introduced by Hafez al-Assad and continued by his son and a high youth unemployment and you have a recipe for a massive amount of civil unrest. Throw in a state whose internal security organs are dedicated to keeping the population repressed and you have a fully fledged civil war on your hands.

Of course, it isn't the first time Syria had faced internal instability. The 1970's and 1980's were marked by periods of violence between Islamist militants of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Syrian armed forces and two massacres of civilians in Hama in 1980 and 1982, the latter one involved an all out assault on the city that killed up to an estimated 40,000 people.

[Novus America]

Umm even IF ISIS is destroyed, Syria will still be a war torn shit hole. The problems go much deeper than ISIS you know. Maybe Assad will shut up about the Kurds. Maybe.

And who is going to pay for the reconstruction? Assuming it ever happens.

Now surely you have heard of Vietnam. The US tried to prop up a corrupt incompetent minority dictator their too... It did not work.

Probabably time Russia made Assad disappear. You can still have a secular dictator if you like, just pick a smarter and more competent one. Does Russia really want to hold Assad's hand fore decades eh?

But anyways have fun with Syria. Glad the Russians decided to jump into that snake pit rather than us.

China will pay for Syria's reconstruction: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160 ... syria.html

I've heard about Vietnam, and the VietCong wasn't exactly known for raping women like ISIS is. Kind of makes a difference when you alienate half of the population because you cannot keep it in your pants. And yeah, Syria's being "very costly" for Russia, it costs all of $82 million per month: http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/03/shocki ... ry-is.html

Again this is a much bigger thing than ISIS. A lot of people in Syria hate ISIS and Assad.

Surely the Russians can find somebody more competent than Assad. I mean really. The guy is Trump level stupid. You missed the point. Propping up an incompetent corrupt minority dictator does not make him more competent, less corrupt, or less divisive.

We have seen this before. You do not want another Diem or Al Maliki (well he was not a minority but still incompetent and corrupt.

Umm your source does not say China will pay for it. It says China is willing to "help" with the construction. The money and resources have to come from somewhere, and China gives nothing for free. And Syria has no resources that China can seize in exchange for loans.

And the intial bombing is the cheap and easy part. The reconstruction is where the real "fun" begins. It always starts out looking easy. It is still a snake pit. Have fun though. Better the Russians than us.

[Geilinor]

This is where I realise that we need a new roman or Ottoman Empire to keep this region in check.

Or, we could just leave their leaders in power. Kids in Syria could go to school without fear of being hit by gunfire or indiscriminate rebel bombings before the west started supporting the "moderate" Free Syrian Army. But now, seen as we're funding and arming the same people who committed 9/11, Syria has been decimated.

The West did not start this civil war and the Free Syrian Army are not the same people who committed 9/11.

[Rio Cana]

Syria's civil war was apparently partially caused by a drought. I'm not sure how true that actually is.

But in any case, Syria should've invested in desalination plants regardless of how expensive it is. So far as the salt byproduct goes, it should not be dumped back into the ocean- it has to be stored for use or disposed of. There is this idea I really like if it can be made practical. Brine can perhaps be converted to magnesium oxide which can absorb carbon dioxide. Using solar power, it can help de-acidify the oceans.

The Syrian drought lasted from 1998 to 2012. It was the worse drought in 900 years. When the drought hit they were caught unprepared. Farmers also had to switch to crops that use less water but which was not done. So many farms dryed up. So by 2006 you have many farmers heading to the cities.

Pressures on Syrian water resources .... management decisions, poor planning, and policy errors.

So you have cities full of many farmers who are mostly unemployed. What do you think would happen. They protested and the government overreacted. But I still think this would not have started the Great Syrian Civil war. I think the catalyst for starting the Great Syrian War were Syrias neighbors. When they saw those farmer protest and the government cracking down certain of Syrias neighbors decided to get involved in Syria by throwing gasoline into the fire and you know what happened.

[Free Missouri]

Or, we could just leave their leaders in power. Kids in Syria could go to school without fear of being hit by gunfire or indiscriminate rebel bombings before the west started supporting the "moderate" Free Syrian Army. But now, seen as we're funding and arming the same people who committed 9/11, Syria has been decimated.

The West did not start this civil war and the Free Syrian Army are not the same people who committed 9/11.

most of the weapons that the Obama administration sent to the "FSA" basically ended up in the hands of Al Nusra which spawned from AQI (Al Qaeda in Iraq), which is a charter group of the global Al Qaeda organization which took part in 9/11

[Shofercia]

China will pay for Syria's reconstruction: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160 ... syria.html

I've heard about Vietnam, and the VietCong wasn't exactly known for raping women like ISIS is. Kind of makes a difference when you alienate half of the population because you cannot keep it in your pants. And yeah, Syria's being "very costly" for Russia, it costs all of $82 million per month: http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/03/shocki ... ry-is.html

Again this is a much bigger thing than ISIS. A lot of people in Syria hate ISIS and Assad.

Surely the Russians can find somebody more competent than Assad. I mean really. The guy is Trump level stupid. You missed the point. Propping up an incompetent corrupt minority dictator does not make him more competent, less corrupt, or less divisive.

We have seen this before. You do not want another Diem or Al Maliki (well he was not a minority but still incompetent and corrupt.

Umm your source does not say China will pay for it. It says China is willing to "help" with the construction. The money and resources have to come from somewhere, and China gives nothing for free. And Syria has no resources that China can seize in exchange for loans.

And the intial bombing is the cheap and easy part. The reconstruction is where the real "fun" begins. It always starts out looking easy. It is still a snake pit. Have fun though. Better the Russians than us.

We'll see what the Syrians do after ISIS has been removed from Syria. If there's as deep hatred of Assad as you allege, he'll be removed too. If that's not the case, he won't be. I'm not going to claim that I know how most Syrians feel about Assad. Oh, and generally speaking "help with the construction" means pay for reconstruction. Of course it won't be free money, it'll be loans. Syria has some resources:

http://www.indexmundi.com/energy/?country=sy
http://www.indexmundi.com/minerals/?cou ... production

so those can be used as collateral. We'll see what happens with reconstruction, but I doubt it'll be anywhere near the astronomical sums that were spent on Iraq. And if Iraq failed with that astronomical expenditure, whereas Syria succeeds with much less, well, that'd be pretty embarrassing, wouldn't it?

[Alsheb]

And which rebel group is going to improve that? Even the most "moderate" rebels have an agenda of including Syria entirely in the fold of the globalised, US-dominated economy. Which would be destructive for all except for the new rich that would develop.

Also, please stop making a fool of yourself by bring up feudalism. Is there a caste of hereditary nobility ranks that inherit lands? No. Does Syria practice serfdom? No. Feudalism is a political and economical system where land is the main economic product and inhabitants are tied to the soil and the lord that rules it. No matter what your opinion of Syria is, comparing it to medieval economy is just plain stupid.

Is Syria capitalist? Yes, and you'll see the Communist Party making several harsh critiques about the liberalisations that Bashar al-Assad has undertaken, moving away from the economical plan his father had. But then again, even Venezuela is still capitalist, and so are most countries in the world, even those progressive nations that are trying to move out of the fold of western domination.

The opinion of the Syrian communists is expressed pretty well in this interview: http://socialistunity.com/interview-wit ... -in-syria/

It would be ridiculous and plain stupid to side with imperialism, with the FSA and al-Nusra just because we oppose Assad's libera economic reforms. Everyone with even half a brain cell can already now see where a rebel victory would lead to. Are we so forgetful that we have already forgotten Libya? Or even Iraq, where there was actually an oppressive dictatorship in power, which since 2003 has been replaced with something even worse? Like seriously, are we that stupid?

Ha, ha.

I have not forgotten Libya and Iraq. Have you forgotten Syria?!

Syria is MUCH WORSE. Sure Iraq and Libya suck, but they suck LESS than Syria! So becoming Libya would be a huge improvement. Iraq and Libya have more stability, less killings and better economies. Objectively they are better by any measure. Sure they have shit economies, shit stability and plenty of killings. Just Syria sets the bar so damn low they can easily beat it. Considering Syria is just about the worst in the world right now.

So your arguement is invalid.
But yeah the rebels suck too. Still they cannot be much worse. But meh, Syria is a hopeless case anyways. Nobody is going to bring prosperity and stability. Not the rebels. But certainly not Assad.

I say just give it to Jordan, but I doubt they would take it.

And again becoming part of the ebul (no longer US dominated) Workd could not be much worse. The vast majority of countries in the world are FAR BETTER than Syria. And those worse the "anti imperialist" ones. Again if Syria was not already one of the worst countries int the world you might have a point. But Syria is one of the worst in the world.

On the feudal thing yes they are not de jure. But Syria does have a de facto monarchy and nobility that own the land and make the peasants work it.

Nice circular logic there, bro.

- Rebels start a civil war
- Half the country gets blown to hell because of civil war
--> Oh noes! War brings destruction! Surely Syria is a terrible place to live!

Guess what? France was a terrible place to live during the world wars. Much of the US was a quite terrible place to live during the Civil War.
War tends to, you know, destroy countries.

[Alsheb]

Tell that to Sub-Saharan Africa.

Okay, I apologize. I will admit my post wasn't very seriously thought out. That said, what do you mean as being part of the fold? I would imagine that every country is to some extent and that Syria, regardless, would be as well. Can you define or put limits on what you mean by a nation including itself in the fold?

I mean nations that completely surrender their economies to foreign corporations and economical superpowers. Like much of the African continent does. African leaders who try to change that have an unfortunate tendency to die horribly.

[Alsheb]

Keeping the water and food supply going is probably the single most important thing. You can't have civilization without it. Even if you're a dictator, it is in their long term interests to at least keep their subjects placated. If there is no water, that has got to be a very serious problem.

Yes. Yes it is important. To bad Assad gave zero fucks about the water thing. He even sucks at the dictator thing.

You heard it here first, folks. Assad is to blame for global warming!

[Alsheb]

Venezuela isn't Socialist. So does that mean I should support US-armed death squads if they were to pour in tomorrow and start decapitating people?

Strawman.

Venezuela: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism
Syria: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism

Not much of a strawman here. Maybe I could leave out the hypothetical death squads in Venezuela thing? Okay then, do you support the US sanctions against Venezuela?

[Costa Fierro]

Strawman.

Venezuela: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism
Syria: non-socialist country trying to break free from imperialism

Not much of a strawman here. Maybe I could leave out the hypothetical death squads in Venezuela thing? Okay then, do you support the US sanctions against Venezuela?

Pedantry time.

Both Venezuela and Syria are socialist-ish. The former has been trying to reform the economy into a socialist style one since Hugo Chavez came to power but failed to do so, largely because it's impossible to transition from a free market economy into a socialist one. That and their inability to manage the country has something to do with the current situation.

Ba'athism, on the other hand, has Arab socialism at its core which is somewhat different from European socialism in that it doesn't really reject religion in it, not to mention Islamic economics has some fairly socialist ideas in it.

I wouldn't say either country isn't socialist but, in the case of Venezuela, it's still in transition and in the case of Syria, it is socialist but just has a different variation of it.

[Rio Cana]

According to Bloomberg market in 2015

Syria had

Once a promising economy and even a destination for refugees from other conflicts, Syria has transformed into the Middle East's biggest humanitarian and economic disaster of the past 25 years.

Syria while not perfect was chugging along. I still think the ordinary Syrians who wanted change prefer things not to have gotten out of hand like they have. In the end, they know that the destruction of there economy and infrastructure would make matters much worse.