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Anarcho-Primitivism: Is the future stuck in the stones?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you agree with Anarcho-primitivism/green anarchism?

Yes, I do!
9
6%
No, I have a different ideology.
124
78%
Neutral or unsure of a stance.
5
3%
I am a server rack, actually!
15
9%
I have not heard of this before.
5
3%
 
Total votes : 158

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Ashkera
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Postby Ashkera » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:59 am

Saiwania wrote:
Kilobugya wrote:The only "good" point of it is that primitivists have actually no chance to achieve their stated goal, the only for such a massive collapse of civilization to happen would be through a world war, dinosaur-killer asteroid, or something similar that is completely out of their reach, so while their ideology is criminal lunacy, they are actually harmless.


It is easy enough in my view. Humans keep adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere and so much heat is trapped gradually that life becomes increasingly hard on Earth, to the point where most of civilization collapses, if humans don't go extinct altogether.

There is technology to remove greenhouse gases from the atmosphere, but there are many cost and scaling challenges to actually implementing it on a large enough scale to actually cause CO2 levels to fall back towards normal once again, instead of constantly increasing to where plants and the wider ecosystem can't keep up. A clean up will take many decades of capturing carbon and pumping it into the ground but it can be done.

If humans die out before then, the planet will be hot for centuries but will gradually repair itself and eventually flourish in our absence. People disappearing would technically speaking, be the best possible change for the environment. Our species is almost exactly akin to a virus that constantly expands, destroys, changes everything in our path in an unsustainable fashion.

Why should we value this environment non-instrumentally, though?
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Benuty
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:07 pm

Ashkera wrote:
Benuty wrote:Immortal machines?

The very idea is heresy just look at the C'tan, and see how well being an immortal machine turned out for the necrontyr.

I don't think the court will take Warhammer 40,000 into evidence. Also didn't you say there was going to be a collapse?


I beg to differ the courts for what time they still exist will take warhammer 40k into evidence considering multiple universes exist, and it is possible to travel to them.

Why just last week I traveled to one where the god emperor of mankind was killed completely instead of withering on a throne.

Collapse?

If only the Canaanite gods were ever so merciful. No it will be a mostly quick, and mostly painless destruction of the planets atmosphere, and life within it. Then while we fight the outraged Sun god Ra, and his edgy nemesis Apep in one final battle to determine who will take the reigns as gods of the new world order.

All fun, and games I assure you.
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Jute
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Postby Jute » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:35 pm

Ashkera wrote:
Jute wrote:You didn't clarify what you meant with "extending lifespan". Do you mean transhumanistic cyborg enhancements, or just the use or improvement of what we already have now?

I am Transhumanist, so obtaining an immortal machine body is not a moral problem for me.

For non Transhumanists, in biological bodies, it would require changes to the genetic code and possibly body transplant operations.

Why should there be a contradiction if you oppose that, but don't oppose normal, sometimes life-saving surgeries? You can be in favor of some technologies and still oppose other ones.
Last edited by Jute on Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

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Skyhooked
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Postby Skyhooked » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:38 pm

Anarcho-primitivism? Like, hunting pigeons and living in the cave? I know, it's inaccurate description, but what else, if the technology is rejected (Even the agriculture). Thanks, but I prefere my "oppressive" apartment with "oppressive" Internet.
Last edited by Skyhooked on Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:39 pm

People honestly stop insulting Luddites.

They actually have plans on how to achieve their goals rather reasonably.
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Skyhooked
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Postby Skyhooked » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:41 pm

Benuty wrote:People honestly stop insulting Luddites.

They actually have plans on how to achieve their goals rather reasonably.


I am not insultin', just telling about my taste preferences. Maybe I don't know something, they know.
Last edited by Skyhooked on Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skyhooked is MT/PMT with a few FT elements. Military is factbook only. NS stats are mostly non canon.
If you wanna know more about this haven of sin: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=418281&start=1

Our country offers: Alcohol, guns, cigars, weed, gambling, beaches and tons of souvenirs. And our current special: PL-74 Plasma rifle 25% discount!

Refreshing News:
Skyhooked is at war with Octavia, still holding agaisnt endless hordes of robots, vampires and traitors of humanity!/Global Defense Council was formed to help Earth hold agaisnt invasion./Luckily, we survived long enough and forces of Mandate of Humanity have arrived. (https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=484352)

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Ashkera
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Postby Ashkera » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:52 pm

Jute wrote:
Ashkera wrote:I am Transhumanist, so obtaining an immortal machine body is not a moral problem for me.

For non Transhumanists, in biological bodies, it would require changes to the genetic code and possibly body transplant operations.

Why should there be a contradiction if you oppose that, but don't oppose normal, sometimes life-saving surgeries? You can be in favor of some technologies and still oppose other ones.

Because it's arbitrary.

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Pandeeria
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Ex-Nation

Postby Pandeeria » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:52 pm

Skyhooked wrote:Anarcho-primitivism? Like, hunting pigeons and living in the cave? I know, it's inaccurate description, but what else, if the technology is rejected (Even the agriculture). Thanks, but I prefere my "oppressive" apartment with "oppressive" Internet.


And my "oppressive" microwave that can quickly heat my "oppressive" mass-produced food. I also like my very much "oppressive" antibiotics.


Anarcho-primitivism is such a fucking shitty ideology.
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In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:00 pm

Skyhooked wrote:Anarcho-primitivism? Like, hunting pigeons and living in the cave? I know, it's inaccurate description, but what else, if the technology is rejected (Even the agriculture). Thanks, but I prefere my "oppressive" apartment with "oppressive" Internet.

strawmen are fun

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Yorkers
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Postby Yorkers » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:01 pm

The return of man to a wild state would once again put selective pressures on us like predators and the elements. Human evolution could be significantly altered by anarcho-primitivism.
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Jute
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Postby Jute » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:28 pm

Ashkera wrote:
Jute wrote:Why should there be a contradiction if you oppose that, but don't oppose normal, sometimes life-saving surgeries? You can be in favor of some technologies and still oppose other ones.

Because it's arbitrary.

That's far from being arbitrary. One is leaving your humanity intact and only operating on a few or one organs at a time, or some tissue/bones. The other one you mentioned is direct "changes to the genetic code", you could hardly have a more drastic change. How can you not see a difference here, and a reason to be alright with one, but not the other one? Most people, I imagine, don't want anyone tampering with their genetic code for whatever reason.
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

Check out the Jutean language! Talk to me about anything. Avian air force flag (Source) Definition of atheism Is Religion Dangerous?

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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:29 pm

Dagashi wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:recognize much of what was lost through our separation from nature,


"Lost."

Getting separated from nature was one of the best things to ever happen to us.


Not even close. Separation from nature allowed hideous ideologies of self-denial to pop up.
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Jute
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Postby Jute » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:36 pm

Pandeeria wrote:
Skyhooked wrote:Anarcho-primitivism? Like, hunting pigeons and living in the cave? I know, it's inaccurate description, but what else, if the technology is rejected (Even the agriculture). Thanks, but I prefere my "oppressive" apartment with "oppressive" Internet.


And my "oppressive" microwave that can quickly heat my "oppressive" mass-produced food. I also like my very much "oppressive" antibiotics.


Anarcho-primitivism is such a fucking shitty ideology.

Putting scare quotes around everything isn't going to stop it from being real issues. You are free to ignore the problems with many of today's food (not everyone wants to care about animal welfare or exploited/forcibly resettled workers, I know that. Or even about things that would affect them directly, like climate change or the inefficiency of antibiotics because of their overuse on cattle) but they will still exist nonetheless.
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

Check out the Jutean language! Talk to me about anything. Avian air force flag (Source) Definition of atheism Is Religion Dangerous?

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Jute
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Postby Jute » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:40 pm

Dagashi wrote:
Threlizdun wrote:recognize much of what was lost through our separation from nature,


"Lost."

Getting separated from nature was one of the best things to ever happen to us.

It clearly seemed to have had a negative effect when it comes to understanding how much we can take from the environment with no negative repercussions for us, i.e. when it stops being using natural resources responsibly and when it starts being exploitation that will only harm ourselves in the end, aside from the rest of the world.
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

Check out the Jutean language! Talk to me about anything. Avian air force flag (Source) Definition of atheism Is Religion Dangerous?

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:45 pm

Jute wrote:It clearly seemed to have had a negative effect when it comes to understanding how much we can take from the environment with no negative repercussions for us, i.e. when it stops being using natural resources responsibly and when it starts being exploitation that will only harm ourselves in the end, aside from the rest of the world.

Have you ever studied animal ecosystems? Absolutely fascinating. They're too stupid to realize when they're eating their environment to death.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:47 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Skyhooked wrote:Anarcho-primitivism? Like, hunting pigeons and living in the cave? I know, it's inaccurate description, but what else, if the technology is rejected (Even the agriculture). Thanks, but I prefere my "oppressive" apartment with "oppressive" Internet.

strawmen are fun

It'd be a strawman if the idea wasn't literally screw technology. Even if it was an exaggeration, everyone's life would still be more difficult
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:48 pm

Jute wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:
And my "oppressive" microwave that can quickly heat my "oppressive" mass-produced food. I also like my very much "oppressive" antibiotics.


Anarcho-primitivism is such a fucking shitty ideology.

Putting scare quotes around everything isn't going to stop it from being real issues. You are free to ignore the problems with many of today's food (not everyone wants to care about animal welfare or exploited/forcibly resettled workers, I know that. Or even about things that would affect them directly, like climate change or the inefficiency of antibiotics because of their overuse on cattle) but they will still exist nonetheless.

So clearly the solution is to suffer
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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:51 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Merizoc wrote:strawmen are fun

It'd be a strawman if the idea wasn't literally screw technology. Even if it was an exaggeration, everyone's life would still be more difficult

Except thats not the idea. At all. As I've explained, focusing on "technology" is idiotic, because that's an incredibly vague word. Nobody gives a rats ass about "technology".

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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:52 pm

Community Values wrote:Who would stop people from progressing technologically? The rain gods?

Given that organized belief systems arose with civilization, I cant help but find this a bit funny.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:53 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:It'd be a strawman if the idea wasn't literally screw technology. Even if it was an exaggeration, everyone's life would still be more difficult

Except thats not the idea. At all. As I've explained, focusing on "technology" is idiotic, because that's an incredibly vague word. Nobody gives a rats ass about "technology".

Really? Cuz technology is kinda important
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Jute
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Postby Jute » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:10 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Jute wrote:Putting scare quotes around everything isn't going to stop it from being real issues. You are free to ignore the problems with many of today's food (not everyone wants to care about animal welfare or exploited/forcibly resettled workers, I know that. Or even about things that would affect them directly, like climate change or the inefficiency of antibiotics because of their overuse on cattle) but they will still exist nonetheless.

So clearly the solution is to suffer

Uhh, no? How about trying to do something about it, like fighting it?
Conserative Morality wrote:
Jute wrote:It clearly seemed to have had a negative effect when it comes to understanding how much we can take from the environment with no negative repercussions for us, i.e. when it stops being using natural resources responsibly and when it starts being exploitation that will only harm ourselves in the end, aside from the rest of the world.

Have you ever studied animal ecosystems? Absolutely fascinating. They're too stupid to realize when they're eating their environment to death.

Well, humans have the capability to be reasonable, so they don't have to fall into the same trap.
Last edited by Jute on Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

Check out the Jutean language! Talk to me about anything. Avian air force flag (Source) Definition of atheism Is Religion Dangerous?

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Jute
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Postby Jute » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:11 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Merizoc wrote:Except thats not the idea. At all. As I've explained, focusing on "technology" is idiotic, because that's an incredibly vague word. Nobody gives a rats ass about "technology".

Really? Cuz technology is kinda important

What was meant that no one cares about what "technology" is or isn't in this context, since it's not relevant. Not that "technology" in general is unimportant.
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

Check out the Jutean language! Talk to me about anything. Avian air force flag (Source) Definition of atheism Is Religion Dangerous?

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The New Sea Territory
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Postby The New Sea Territory » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:12 pm

Community Values wrote:Who would stop people from progressing technologically? The rain gods?


Thor and Dazhbog would probably be more concerned with their own stuff.

Also, it's an unwarranted assumption to say that civilization would spontaneously occur in the absence of civilization...many places never developed it, until colonization.
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of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
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Ashkera
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Postby Ashkera » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:34 pm

Jute wrote:
Ashkera wrote:Because it's arbitrary.

That's far from being arbitrary. One is leaving your humanity intact and only operating on a few or one organs at a time, or some tissue/bones. The other one you mentioned is direct "changes to the genetic code", you could hardly have a more drastic change. How can you not see a difference here, and a reason to be alright with one, but not the other one? Most people, I imagine, don't want anyone tampering with their genetic code for whatever reason.

Because I see myself as being more than my body. My body is the water. I am the wave.

Longevity tampering has never seemed like a big deal to me. It's just taking the existing lifespan and stretching it out. You're not even boosting IQ or organ function above the level of a 25-year-old with otherwise the same genes. Why wither and die for nothing?

That, and because what I consider drastic is a lot more, well, drastic. I am the author of Nayba Collective, you know. When you say there could hardly be a more drastic change than lengthening a baseline human's lifespan, I'm like "have you not ever seen Ghost in the Shell?"

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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:07 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Community Values wrote:Who would stop people from progressing technologically? The rain gods?

Given that organized belief systems arose with civilization, I cant help but find this a bit funny.

"Organized"...And what about those that aren't? Even Gorillas and elephants, two species with a shocking lack of civilizations, take part in religious or ritualistic behaviors. It's even suspected gorillas have a rudimetery proto-religion that differs from troop to troop. http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/570-animals-may-have-religion
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