Should families who reject LGBT children by guilty of abuse?

[Ohioan Territory]

Rejecting your child for any reason is abusive.

[Ostroeuropa]

Wait a minute... I never said anything was tragic about it. I just said it isn't a choice. I'm a transgender woman and I'm proud of it, doesn't mean I somehow 'chose' to be one.

Uhuh. Keep telling yourself that. If you didn't want to be transgender, you wouldn't be. No one made you become transgender. It was clearly a personal decision.

If you want people to respect LGBT, then drop the "but it wasn't a choice" rhetoric.

I agree.
The "It wasn't a choice" rhetoric suggests that if it was, it would somehow be bad. But beyond that, it diminishes the agency of the people involved.
My identity is a result of my decisions, my actions, and my agency, and I know that's the case for you too. I am not something acted upon, but an someone who acts.

I have chosen to be bisexual. I could have decided to be straight. I might not have been as happy, but it could be done, and to deny that is silly in my opinion.
Noone made me bisexual, and I wasn't born this way. I decided I was it. Me. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I could have been a straight person who secretly wanted to fuck men, sure. But that wouldn't make me bisexual. It wouldn't have formed part of my identity or my actions. It wouldn't have been a part of me, I would have rejected it.

I think the "Not a choice" rhetoric downplays the active role LGBT people make in deciding their own identities and acting upon them.

[Noraika]

It's pretty hard to treat your child the same if they think they're a woman, or man, or whatever, and you believe it's a mental disorder. It's very very difficult to control how parents treat their children. However I will fall back to my old point that the child is not old enough to give meaningful consent. It should be the parents decision, and if they want to give their child hormone therapy, oh well. If the don't they shouldn't be called child abusers, and have to suffer the repercussions of such.

Not saying they should be arbitrarily called "child abusers", but I am saying withholding important and medically necessary treatment, which compromises a child's well-being fits the bill to be called abuse, regardless of the 'sincerely-held beliefs' of the parents.

[Socialist Nordia]

I mean, Estrogen and Testosterone are pretty damn natural, considering, bar some odd genetic abnormality, your body is currently producing them.

No. If you're a man, your body ain't producing Estrogen. Same go with Testosterone if you're a female.
Therefore, being injected a massive quantity of either when you aren't supposed to have any in your body at all is anything but "natural".

Who gives a fuck about "natural"? We get injected with vaccines, those aren't natural. That doesn't mean not taking them isn't the worse option. Most medicines are unnatural, that doesn't stop people.

[Uxupox]

I'll have to agree here. Now, I'm not going to say anything on whether it's "right" or "wrong", but injecting/putting in the hormones of the opposite sex into your body isn't biologically natural, scientifically speaking.

Neither is brain surgery but we still do it.

High levels of Estrogen at over 40+ years old will cripple the male body.

No. If you're a man, your body ain't producing Estrogen. Same go with Testosterone if you're a female.
Therefore, being injected a massive quantity of either when you aren't supposed to have any in your body at all is anything but "natural".

Who gives a fuck about "natural"? We get injected with vaccines, those aren't natural. That doesn't mean not taking them isn't the worse option. Most medicines are unnatural, that doesn't stop people.

Unlike vaccines, injecting yourself with the opposite natural hormone will fuck you up.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

Neither is brain surgery but we still do it.

You don't fuck with the bodies hormones when performing brain surgery, and unless is a lobotomy or a medical mishap, they'll come out the same person as before. Hormones fuck with personality, and physical features.

The point is that brain surgery is a medical treatment. You would recieve this 'unnatural' treatment if you had an ailment that required it as treatment. HRT is the valid treatment for Gender Dysphoria.

[Valystria]

I mean, Estrogen and Testosterone are pretty damn natural, considering, bar some odd genetic abnormality, your body is currently producing them.

No. If you're a man, your body ain't producing Estrogen. Same go with Testosterone if you're a female.
Therefore, being injected a massive quantity of either when you aren't supposed to have any in your body at all is anything but "natural".

Same as getting a tattoo or a piercing. It's no different.

Transgender people would be so much better off if they ditched the oppression and lack of autonomy rhetoric and instead framed HRT as being in the same category of other bodily modifications such as tattoos and piercings.

[Aelex]

Who gives a fuck about "natural"? We get injected with vaccines, those aren't natural. That doesn't mean not taking them isn't the worse option. Most medicines are unnatural, that doesn't stop people.

Don't try and shift the goal post. RNW claimed transitioning was "natural". I debunked said claim. Don't try to put more words than that in my mouth.
And, btw, yes vaccines are pretty much natural. They're just watered down-versions of virus.

[Arcipelago]

Oh really? It's not plausible at least some individuals may actually enjoy being bi or trans and intentionally sought it out?

You're signalling that you view LGBTness as something tragic, only ever being an oppression identity borne out of suffering, and that we should all accept it because it wasn't their choice.

No, that's quite miserable. LGBT ought to be respected and accepted including as a choice. If someone doesn't want to be trans, they can stop anytime. Everyone decides who they are.

Every time you use as a defense "but it's not choice", you're heavily implying it would be bad if it were a choice.

Wait a minute... I never said anything was tragic about it. I just said it isn't a choice. I'm a transgender woman and I'm proud of it, doesn't mean I somehow 'chose' to be one.

Evidence show's gender is a result of you environment and previous sexual encounters. Most of those things sound like choices to me. It is also a little odd you are proud about something you didn't work for or at least chose ( in your own opinion).

[Romakivila]

It's pretty hard to treat your child the same if they think they're a woman, or man, or whatever, and you believe it's a mental disorder. It's very very difficult to control how parents treat their children. However I will fall back to my old point that the child is not old enough to give meaningful consent. It should be the parents decision, and if they want to give their child hormone therapy, oh well. If the don't they shouldn't be called child abusers, and have to suffer the repercussions of such.

Not saying they should be arbitrarily called "child abusers", but I am saying withholding important and medically necessary treatment, which compromises a child's well-being fits the bill to be called abuse, regardless of the 'sincerely-held beliefs' of the parents.

Alright, well one, I don't think pumping your child full of unnatural hormones is medically necessary despite what some may say, and two, that's a slippery slope.

[The Serbian Empire]

Definitely yes. I see it as dereliction of parenting duties.

Back in my day we could just claim the child as a bastard. Thus freeing us of caring for them.

Surprised no one has thought of that.

Blame Maury Povich for your woes, there's paternity testing these days.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

No. If you're a man, your body ain't producing Estrogen. Same go with Testosterone if you're a female.
Therefore, being injected a massive quantity of either when you aren't supposed to have any in your body at all is anything but "natural".

Same as getting a tattoo or a piercing. It's no different.

Transgender people would be so much better off if they ditched the oppression and lack of autonomy rhetoric and instead framed HRT as being in the same category of other bodily modifications such as tattoos and piercings.

Where is the facepalm emoji? I'm not a man that likes looking like a woman. Im a woman that unfortunately was given a male body. Altering the male form to fit my identity as a woman is not like getting a cosmetically-appealing tattoo.

[Aelex]

Have I been claiming that brain surgery is normal? Nah.
Have you been claiming that transitioning is, however?

If you had a brain tumor would brain surgery to remove it be 'normal'?

Non Sequitur and False Equivalency, now both in the same post!

[Rutthenia]

No. If you're a man, your body ain't producing Estrogen. Same go with Testosterone if you're a female.
Therefore, being injected a massive quantity of either when you aren't supposed to have any in your body at all is anything but "natural".

Who gives a fuck about "natural"? We get injected with vaccines, those aren't natural. That doesn't mean not taking them isn't the worse option. Most medicines are unnatural, that doesn't stop people.

Yes, they really are. Do you know why little children eat their mucus? Because they're naturally meant to. That mucus introduces minimal, harmless amounts of bacteria to strengthen their immune system. That could basically define a "vaccine", introducing minimal, harmless amounts of bacteria/viruses to strengthen their bodies.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

Wait a minute... I never said anything was tragic about it. I just said it isn't a choice. I'm a transgender woman and I'm proud of it, doesn't mean I somehow 'chose' to be one.

Evidence show's gender is a result of you environment and previous sexual encounters. Most of those things sound like choices to me. It is also a little odd you are proud about something you didn't work for or at least chose ( in your own opinion).

I'm proud of who I am. Also, no one 'chooses' their environment and its rather hard for 'sexual encounters' to effect my gender when I haven't had any.

[Socialist Nordia]

Who gives a fuck about "natural"? We get injected with vaccines, those aren't natural. That doesn't mean not taking them isn't the worse option. Most medicines are unnatural, that doesn't stop people.

Don't try and shift the goal post. RNW claimed transitioning was "natural". I debunked said claim. Don't try to put more words than that in my mouth.
And, btw, yes vaccines are pretty much natural. They're just watered down-versions of virus.

They're viruses that are natural, but wouldn't be in our bodies if not injected. Hormones are also "natural", but wouldn't be in our bodies if not injected. Natural or not, they're essentially the same with respect to this argument.

[Noraika]

Unlike vaccines, injecting yourself with the opposite natural hormone will fuck you up.

You know, usually when I'm looking up information on a topic relating to medical treatment I go to professional associations of doctors and mental health professionals in their field, who've studied the issue ad inifinitum, and who find that the human body can very easily compensate and run off of both types of dominant hormone, but since you say its bad and dangerous it must be true.

Unsupervised treatment, however, as with most medical treatment, is definitely not advised.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

If you had a brain tumor would brain surgery to remove it be 'normal'?

Non Sequitur and False Equivalency, now both in the same post!

Its neither. Brain Surgery is a treatment for a brain tumor. HRT is the method of treatment for Gender Dysphoria.

[Ostroeuropa]

Same as getting a tattoo or a piercing. It's no different.

Transgender people would be so much better off if they ditched the oppression and lack of autonomy rhetoric and instead framed HRT as being in the same category of other bodily modifications such as tattoos and piercings.

Where is the facepalm emoji? I'm not a man that likes looking like a woman. Im a woman that unfortunately was given a male body. Altering the male form to fit my identity as a woman is not like getting a cosmetically-appealing tattoo.

You shouldn't downplay peoples statements of identity and self-image like that if you don't like it being done to you. In an effort to affirm that it is right for you to change your image to better suit how you perceive yourself, you have become the thing you despise.
Someone getting a tattoo or a piercing can be an expression of deep personal meaning and bring them more into alignment with their image of themselves. It really is no different, and you shouldn't belittle it. Were it up to me, our physical forms would be entirely malleable to our preference, and I don't particularly see one incarnation as more right than another, nor any self-image as more meaningful or impactful.

The reason you have this viewpoint of your kind being different is due to transphobes making out its a big deal. It isn't, except in the sense that actualizing your self-image is important. And that's also true of tattoos and piercings.

[Luminesa]

Don't try and shift the goal post. RNW claimed transitioning was "natural". I debunked said claim. Don't try to put more words than that in my mouth.
And, btw, yes vaccines are pretty much natural. They're just watered down-versions of virus.

They're viruses that are natural, but wouldn't be in our bodies if not injected. Hormones are also "natural", but wouldn't be in our bodies if not injected. Natural or not, they're essentially the same with respect to this argument.

Actually, when you're born, you're born with a lot of different hormones. They're the things that help your body to grow and develop normally. Like your pituitary gland.

[Dinake]

I will note that to consider forbidding LGBT youth from committing sodomy abusive is logically inconsistent unless one also considers forbidding heterosexual youth from engaging in sexual congress to be abusive. That's not abusive, that's just good parenting.

Disowning or abandoning an LGBT youth simply for being LGBT is abusive. Parents are required to help their children safeguard their chastity, which simple abandonment doesn't do because such children will most likely turn to sex work. Parents of LGBT youth- increasingly common nowadays because of insufficient father figures and birth control chemicals in the drinking water- must aid their children in a lifetime of celibacy, not abandon them.

How? I don't technically have legal obligation to them at that point, so, if they do something that they can't take back, and which violates my religious beliefs, why shouldn't I disown them?

Because, once again, that's child abuse, or neglect more specifically.

Neglect doesn't apply to anyone over 18.

[Aelex]

Where is the facepalm emoji? I'm not a man that likes looking like a woman. Im a woman that unfortunately was given a male body. Altering the male form to fit my identity as a woman is not like getting a cosmetically-appealing tattoo.

When you're done transitioning, you won't get a functioning womb. You won't get functioning ovaries. You won't get functioning breasts.
What you can do at most is merely to alter your body so it look like a woman's one; you can't with today technology actually have a woman's one.

[Romakivila]

You don't fuck with the bodies hormones when performing brain surgery, and unless is a lobotomy or a medical mishap, they'll come out the same person as before. Hormones fuck with personality, and physical features.

The point is that brain surgery is a medical treatment. You would receive this 'unnatural' treatment if you had an ailment that required it as treatment. HRT is the valid treatment for Gender Dysphoria.

One is a physical condition that'd cause the person to die without treatment. The other is a psychological condition that often times causes its patients to be depressed. It is not truly life threatening, and again I doubt receiving hormone treatment or sex changes truly affect the suicide rate.

[Uxupox]

Don't try and shift the goal post. RNW claimed transitioning was "natural". I debunked said claim. Don't try to put more words than that in my mouth.
And, btw, yes vaccines are pretty much natural. They're just watered down-versions of virus.

They're viruses that are natural, but wouldn't be in our bodies if not injected. Hormones are also "natural", but wouldn't be in our bodies if not injected. Natural or not, they're essentially the same with respect to this argument.

See my previous post in regards to your post about being natural.

[Noraika]

Not saying they should be arbitrarily called "child abusers", but I am saying withholding important and medically necessary treatment, which compromises a child's well-being fits the bill to be called abuse, regardless of the 'sincerely-held beliefs' of the parents.

Alright, well one, I don't think pumping your child full of unnatural hormones is medically necessary despite what some may say, and two, that's a slippery slope.

Some =/= virtually all well-respected, reputable, and credible organizations or associations of mental health professionals, in their field, who've studied the issue extensively. Okay.

No it isn't. It is literally the Standards of Care that it is detrimental to the child, and a parent acting in a way that puts their child in detriment is abusive/neglectful, by most legal definitions of the word. No slippery slope, just control over parents using their "beliefs" to harm their children. Whether intentionally or not is not legally significant.