US GENERAL ELECTION MEGA-THREAD II: Clinton vs. Trump

[Conserative Morality]

Which values do you mean? You mean sacrificing the lives of my own for some other country?

Freedom, democracy, standing by your comrades...

But I guess those don't mean much to you. I mean, if they aren't American, fuck 'em.

Those innocent people already have defenders. Their own countries defenders.

And if that defense isn't enough? Do you really think Estonia could hold out on its own, even hypermilitarized, against the Russian military?

First thing that is taught to us.

Good.

I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.

[Uxupox]

Which values do you mean? You mean sacrificing the lives of my own for some other country?

Freedom, democracy, standing by your comrades...

But I guess those don't mean much to you. I mean, if they aren't American, fuck 'em.

Those innocent people already have defenders. Their own countries defenders.

And if that defense isn't enough? Do you really think Estonia could hold out on its own, even hypermilitarized, against the Russian military?

First thing that is taught to us.

Good.

I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.

Those aren't my comrades. They don't have the american flag patch on their shoulders. They are foreign to me. Afghanistan did a mighty fine job of destroying the unstoppable bear, why can't another more well funded and disciplined force do what they can't do? That is correct I am the guardian of "freedom" but that is the american freedom not some foreign sense of freedom, to tell you the truth I love every American, doesn't matter which ideas you believe in because you are amazing to me, the United States bled for me so I bled for her. And since you are speaking of army values which is LDRSHIP.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity.

There is nothing there that says sacrificing yourself for some foreigner.

[Shonburg]

Freedom, democracy, standing by your comrades...

But I guess those don't mean much to you. I mean, if they aren't American, fuck 'em.

And if that defense isn't enough? Do you really think Estonia could hold out on its own, even hypermilitarized, against the Russian military?

Good.

Those aren't my comrades. They don't have the american flag patch on their shoulders. They are foreign to me. Afghanistan did a mighty fine job of destroying the unstoppable bear, why can't another more well funded and disciplined force do what they can't do? That is correct I am the guardian of "freedom" but that is the american freedom not some foreign sense of freedom, to tell you the truth I love every American, doesn't matter which ideas you believe in because you are amazing to me, the United States bled for me so I bled for her. And since you are speaking of army values which is LDRSHIP.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity.

There is nothing there that says sacrificing yourself for some foreigner.

Baltic Soldiers fought alongside us in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are our comrades. You also ignore what Integrity, Honor and Duty mean to us and our allies and friends abroad.

[Conserative Morality]

Those aren't my comrades. They don't have the american flag patch on their shoulders. They are foreign to me. Afghanistan did a mighty fine job of destroying the unstoppable bear, why can't another more well funded and disciplined force do what they can't do?

The War in Afghanistan wasn't actually all that successful for the Afghanis. Their government was crushed, their country fractured, impoverished, and the Russians only pulled out because they essentially got tired of dealing with what was a pretty minor problem. If Russia were determined to take Estonia, Estonia wouldn't have a chance.

That is correct I am the guardian of "freedom" but that is the american freedom not some foreign sense of freedom,

There's only one sense of freedom. That freedom is the American sense, and we've defended it ever since American boots set foot on European soil.

to tell you the truth I love every American, doesn't matter which ideas you believe in because you are amazing to me, the United States bled for me so I bled for her. And since you are speaking of army values which is LDRSHIP.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity.

There is nothing there that says sacrificing yourself for some foreigner.

RESPECT

Treat people as they should be treated. In the Soldier’s Code, we pledge to “treat others with dignity and respect while expecting others to do the same.” Respect is what allows us to appreciate the best in other people. Respect is trusting that all people have done their jobs and fulfilled their duty.

Does that say "Oh, btw, non-Americans aren't people"? Or is your idea of treating someone with respect saying that their lives aren't worth a damn? Tell me, how many American civilian lives is your platoon worth?

Not to mention I should think that Loyalty and Duty would include Loyalty and Duty towards the US government, which in turn would respect the values of Loyalty and Duty by upholding its obligations to other countries instead of violating treaties, abandoning allies, and refusing to fight for freedom. Honestly, all of those values would back up us defending those who cannot defend themselves. Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage...

[Uxupox]

Those aren't my comrades. They don't have the american flag patch on their shoulders. They are foreign to me. Afghanistan did a mighty fine job of destroying the unstoppable bear, why can't another more well funded and disciplined force do what they can't do? That is correct I am the guardian of "freedom" but that is the american freedom not some foreign sense of freedom, to tell you the truth I love every American, doesn't matter which ideas you believe in because you are amazing to me, the United States bled for me so I bled for her. And since you are speaking of army values which is LDRSHIP.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity.

There is nothing there that says sacrificing yourself for some foreigner.

Baltic Soldiers fought alongside us in Iraq and Afghanistan, they are our comrades. You also ignore what Integrity, Honor and Duty mean to us and our allies and friends abroad.

I never received an article 15 so I don't know what your talking regarding Duty. I fail integrity? Weirdly enough that's one my sustains.

[Uxupox]

Those aren't my comrades. They don't have the american flag patch on their shoulders. They are foreign to me. Afghanistan did a mighty fine job of destroying the unstoppable bear, why can't another more well funded and disciplined force do what they can't do?

The War in Afghanistan wasn't actually all that successful for the Afghanis. Their government was crushed, their country fractured, impoverished, and the Russians only pulled out because they essentially got tired of dealing with what was a pretty minor problem. If Russia were determined to take Estonia, Estonia wouldn't have a chance.

That is correct I am the guardian of "freedom" but that is the american freedom not some foreign sense of freedom,

There's only one sense of freedom. That freedom is the American sense, and we've defended it ever since American boots set foot on European soil.

to tell you the truth I love every American, doesn't matter which ideas you believe in because you are amazing to me, the United States bled for me so I bled for her. And since you are speaking of army values which is LDRSHIP.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity.

There is nothing there that says sacrificing yourself for some foreigner.

RESPECT

Treat people as they should be treated. In the Soldier’s Code, we pledge to “treat others with dignity and respect while expecting others to do the same.” Respect is what allows us to appreciate the best in other people. Respect is trusting that all people have done their jobs and fulfilled their duty.

Does that say "Oh, btw, non-Americans aren't people"? Or is your idea of treating someone with respect saying that their lives aren't worth a damn? Tell me, how many American civilian lives is your platoon worth?

Not to mention I should think that Loyalty and Duty would include Loyalty and Duty towards the US government, which in turn would respect the values of Loyalty and Duty by upholding its obligations to other countries instead of violating treaties, abandoning allies, and refusing to fight for freedom. Honestly, all of those values would back up us defending those who cannot defend themselves. Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage...

Never said that they weren't people but they are not worth the lives of my men. Never will be. Notice that I never commented about myself. So I personally don't think that I am above non-Americans. I already explained the values.

[Mynockia]

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that things like NATO serve the national interests of the United States, and that's the first and foremost reason for our involvement with NATO and other partners. We don't have military forces deployed around for world for charity purposes.

[New Chalcedon]

I'm more interested in how a "Johnson wants you to bake nazi cakes" ad plastered in Southern Florida would affect those who are on the fence.

Compared to the amount of dirt on Clinton and Trump, with Benghazi, Trump U, etc. I just don't see how the Nazi cakes are a serious problem.

Benghazi is already known about - it's well-known by now that it's nothing but a ludicrous witch-hunt that the GOP has spent more public money on "investigating" than was allocated to embassy security in the first place. Perhaps if they'd been as willing to open the purse-strings to protect the embassy as they've been to "investigate" the attack, Ambassador Stevens would be alive and talking about close call? People are tired about hearing about Benghazi, although Inquisitor Gowdy seems to have done his job well enough, in that he's dragged Clinton's name through enough mud to make some stick.

By November, people will be sick and tired of hearing about Trump and his fraudulent activities as well, even though there's actually a "there" there, no matter how hard Trump bloviates about the "Mexican" judge being "biased" against him. Once again, Mission Accomplished for the GOP - they've managed to poison the well sufficiently that even blatantly fraudulent business practices are now in "Eh, both sides do it!" territory.

Nazi cakes? Those would be a new shiny to distract the public.

If Johnson seriously wants a Nazi cake, I'd be happy to make one for him.

Now, go tell a Jewish baker that they have to bake one. עם הצלחה!

PS: Dibs on your organs.

[Conserative Morality]

Never said that they weren't people but they are not worth the lives of my men. Never will be.

You know, it's pretty sad when civilians have more honor and integrity than your view of the US Army.

You never answered my question. How many American civilians is your platoon worth? More? Less?

Notice that I never commented about myself. So I personally don't think that I am above non-Americans. I already explained the values.

Yeah, and it's pretty clear that those values imply exactly what the US is upholding currently as a defender of the freedom and independence of the Baltic countries with whom we have agreements with, who are our close allies, and who could not defend themselves against Russia.

[Freefall11111]

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that things like NATO serve the national interests of the United States, and that's the first and foremost reason for our involvement with NATO and other partners. We don't have military forces deployed around for world for charity purposes.

Of course. Any talk of "freedom" or "liberty" with regards to NATO or any military commitments America has made is just propaganda. America engages in alliances, and in conflict, to further its interests, and by extension (some of the time) its allies' interests.

[Eol Sha]

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that things like NATO serve the national interests of the United States, and that's the first and foremost reason for our involvement with NATO and other partners. We don't have military forces deployed around for world for charity purposes.

Well, the central crux of this discussion is whether or not the interests that NATO supposedly serves should be the national interests of the United States.

[New Chalcedon]

There's only one sense of freedom. That freedom is the American sense, and we've defended it ever since American boots set foot on European soil.

That's.....impressively America-centered. I mean, we all know Baby Jesus was 'Murican, but this....this is a whole new level of "Team 'Murica, F**k yea!" bullshit.

[Conserative Morality]

That's.....impressively America-centered. I mean, we all know Baby Jesus was 'Murican, but this....this is a whole new level of "Team 'Murica, F**k yea!" bullshit.

What can I say? I have an ethnocentric view of the world.

To be entirely fair, I don't mean to imply that America has a monopoly on freedom or anything like that, nor that we 'invented' it or anything.

[Eol Sha]

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that things like NATO serve the national interests of the United States, and that's the first and foremost reason for our involvement with NATO and other partners. We don't have military forces deployed around for world for charity purposes.

Of course. Any talk of "freedom" or "liberty" with regards to NATO or any military commitments America has made is just propaganda. America engages in alliances, and in conflict, to further its interests, and by extension (some of the time) its allies' interests.

Very true. Like I originally said, one of the reasons why NATO exists is to deter Russian aggression in Eastern Europe.

[Eol Sha]

There's only one sense of freedom. That freedom is the American sense, and we've defended it ever since American boots set foot on European soil.

That's.....impressively America-centered. I mean, we all know Baby Jesus was 'Murican, but this....this is a whole new level of "Team 'Murica, F**k yea!" bullshit.

Well, I can't say I particularly admire many of the foreign concepts of "freedom" that don't align with that of the American concept.

[Freefall11111]

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that things like NATO serve the national interests of the United States, and that's the first and foremost reason for our involvement with NATO and other partners. We don't have military forces deployed around for world for charity purposes.

Well, the central crux of this discussion is whether or not the interests that NATO supposedly serves should be the national interests of the United States.

NATO interests are American interests. There's near universal agreement both among high ups in the military and other experts in foreign policy that maintaining US hegemony is essential for US interests.

[New Chalcedon]

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that things like NATO serve the national interests of the United States, and that's the first and foremost reason for our involvement with NATO and other partners. We don't have military forces deployed around for world for charity purposes.

Well, the central crux of this discussion is whether or not the interests that NATO supposedly serves should be the national interests of the United States.

Not the way I see it. NATO serves both the US' and it's allies' interests. That's why its members are members.

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that things like NATO serve the national interests of the United States, and that's the first and foremost reason for our involvement with NATO and other partners. We don't have military forces deployed around for world for charity purposes.

Of course. Any talk of "freedom" or "liberty" with regards to NATO or any military commitments America has made is just propaganda. America engages in alliances, and in conflict, to further its interests, and by extension (some of the time) its allies' interests.

Basically, this. As an American Talleyrand might have put it, "America has no permanent ideals, only permanent interests." It's why the US has been as willing, time and again, to covertly and overtly support military dictators as it has peaceful democracies. Because the only criterion on which US support is predicated is "How useful are you?", nothing more, nothing less.

[USS Monitor]

Compared to the amount of dirt on Clinton and Trump, with Benghazi, Trump U, etc. I just don't see how the Nazi cakes are a serious problem.

Benghazi is already known about - it's well-known by now that it's nothing but a ludicrous witch-hunt that the GOP has spent more public money on "investigating" than was allocated to embassy security in the first place. Perhaps if they'd been as willing to open the purse-strings to protect the embassy as they've been to "investigate" the attack, Ambassador Stevens would be alive and talking about close call? People are tired about hearing about Benghazi, although Inquisitor Gowdy seems to have done his job well enough, in that he's dragged Clinton's name through enough mud to make some stick.

By November, people will be sick and tired of hearing about Trump and his fraudulent activities as well, even though there's actually a "there" there, no matter how hard Trump bloviates about the "Mexican" judge being "biased" against him. Once again, Mission Accomplished for the GOP - they've managed to poison the well sufficiently that even blatantly fraudulent business practices are now in "Eh, both sides do it!" territory.

Nazi cakes? Those would be a new shiny to distract the public.

If they bring it out now, it'll blow over by November because it's not a real scandal.

If Johnson seriously wants a Nazi cake, I'd be happy to make one for him.

Now, go tell a Jewish baker that they have to bake one. עם הצלחה!

PS: Dibs on your organs.

I'm talking about a cake with swastikas and Nazi eagles and stuff, which Johnson explicitly said bakers could refuse.

[Freefall11111]

Of course. Any talk of "freedom" or "liberty" with regards to NATO or any military commitments America has made is just propaganda. America engages in alliances, and in conflict, to further its interests, and by extension (some of the time) its allies' interests.

Very true. Like I originally said, one of the reasons why NATO exists is to deter Russian aggression in Eastern Europe.

That's the reason NATO was created: Containment of Russia, specifically in Europe. That's still its main purpose, although its secondary purpose in fighting terrorism has grown significantly.

[Eol Sha]

Well, the central crux of this discussion is whether or not the interests that NATO supposedly serves should be the national interests of the United States.

NATO interests are American interests. There's near universal agreement both among high ups in the military and other experts in foreign policy that maintaining US hegemony is essential for US interests.

I think this election has made it pretty clear that large segments of the American populace do not feel the same way.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Freedom, democracy, standing by your comrades...

But I guess those don't mean much to you. I mean, if they aren't American, fuck 'em.

And if that defense isn't enough? Do you really think Estonia could hold out on its own, even hypermilitarized, against the Russian military?

Good.

Those aren't my comrades. They don't have the american flag patch on their shoulders. They are foreign to me. Afghanistan did a mighty fine job of destroying the unstoppable bear, why can't another more well funded and disciplined force do what they can't do? That is correct I am the guardian of "freedom" but that is the american freedom not some foreign sense of freedom, to tell you the truth I love every American, doesn't matter which ideas you believe in because you are amazing to me, the United States bled for me so I bled for her. And since you are speaking of army values which is LDRSHIP.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity.

There is nothing there that says sacrificing yourself for some foreigner.

The United States Armed Forces haven't been solely about protecting America since at least 1949, and there have been a number of instances before that, as well. I assume that you joined the military with the full knowledge that we were a NATO signatory, that this required us to come to the defense of our allies, and that you joined freely and of your own will, understanding what your duties would be as a result of this choice. As you now scorn these duties, and look down upon those who you are obligated to protect as a member of the military of a NATO signatory nation, I strongly suggest that when your term ends, you do whatever branch of the military you belong to a huge favor, and do not re-enlist. This was obviously an enormous mistake on your part, and everyone would likely be better off if you moved on to a field where you can fulfill your responsibilities without excessive feelings of resentment against those who you may have to protect one day.

[Uxupox]

Never said that they weren't people but they are not worth the lives of my men. Never will be.

You know, it's pretty sad when civilians have more honor and integrity than your view of the US Army.

You never answered my question. How many American civilians is your platoon worth? More? Less?

Notice that I never commented about myself. So I personally don't think that I am above non-Americans. I already explained the values.

Yeah, and it's pretty clear that those values imply exactly what the US is upholding currently as a defender of the freedom and independence of the Baltic countries with whom we have agreements with, who are our close allies, and who could not defend themselves against Russia.

Every american life is equal that to a one of my soldiers. Defenders of the american freedom not the foreign one.

Those aren't my comrades. They don't have the american flag patch on their shoulders. They are foreign to me. Afghanistan did a mighty fine job of destroying the unstoppable bear, why can't another more well funded and disciplined force do what they can't do? That is correct I am the guardian of "freedom" but that is the american freedom not some foreign sense of freedom, to tell you the truth I love every American, doesn't matter which ideas you believe in because you are amazing to me, the United States bled for me so I bled for her. And since you are speaking of army values which is LDRSHIP.

Loyalty - Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, the Army, your unit and other Soldiers.
Duty - Fulfill your obligations.
Respect - Treat people as they should be treated.
Selfless Service - Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Honor - Live up to all the Army values.
Integrity - Do what’s right, legally and morally.
Personal Courage - Face fear, danger, or adversity.

There is nothing there that says sacrificing yourself for some foreigner.

The United States Armed Forces haven't been solely about protecting America since at least 1949, and there have been a number of instances before that, as well. I assume that you joined the military with the full knowledge that we were a NATO signatory, that this required us to come to the defense of our allies, and that you joined freely and of your own will, understanding what your duties would be as a result of this choice. As you now scorn these duties, and look down upon those who you are obligated to protect as a member of the military of a NATO signatory nation, I strongly suggest that when your term ends, you do whatever branch of the military you belong to a huge favor, and do not re-enlist. This was obviously an enormous mistake on your part, and everyone would likely be better off if you moved on to a field where you can fulfill your responsibilities without excessive resentment or feeling of resentment against those who you may have to protect one day.

Who the fuck are you to tell me when and when I cannot reenlist?

[Freefall11111]

NATO interests are American interests. There's near universal agreement both among high ups in the military and other experts in foreign policy that maintaining US hegemony is essential for US interests.

I think this election has made it pretty clear that large segments of the American populace do not feel the same way.

Large segments of the American populace don't understand anything about geopolitics.

[Eol Sha]

Very true. Like I originally said, one of the reasons why NATO exists is to deter Russian aggression in Eastern Europe.

That's the reason NATO was created: Containment of Russia, specifically in Europe. That's still its main purpose, although its secondary purpose in fighting terrorism has grown significantly.

Let me rephrase. It's one of the reasons why NATO continues to exist following the fall of the USSR.

[Eol Sha]

I think this election has made it pretty clear that large segments of the American populace do not feel the same way.

Large segments of the American populace don't understand anything about geopolitics.

Doesn't really change the truth of my statement.