Would You Support a New Egalitarian Movement?

[New Edom]

I repeat, why should a man support feminism--on what ethical principles or what moral basis? I don't mean "because it's right" or "out of empathy" but according to what ethical principles?

[Wolfmanne2]

I repeat, why should a man support feminism--on what ethical principles or what moral basis? I don't mean "because it's right" or "out of empathy" but according to what ethical principles?

What ethical principle or moral basis stops me from answering 'because it's right'?

[New Edom]

I repeat, why should a man support feminism--on what ethical principles or what moral basis? I don't mean "because it's right" or "out of empathy" but according to what ethical principles?

What ethical principle or moral basis stops me from answering 'because it's right'?

Why should we obey traffic laws? Because they create safer roads. A combination of support for infrastructure, maintenance of a police force to maintain the rules, training drivers, etc makes it make sense. So that's a social agreement that I accept.

Why did William Wilberforce fight slavery? He believed that it was a Christian principle that all men were created in the image of God.

So what are feminists appealing to the average man about?

[Wolfmanne2]

What ethical principle or moral basis stops me from answering 'because it's right'?

Why should we obey traffic laws? Because they create safer roads. A combination of support for infrastructure, maintenance of a police force to maintain the rules, training drivers, etc makes it make sense. So that's a social agreement that I accept.

Why did William Wilberforce fight slavery? He believed that it was a Christian principle that all men were created in the image of God.

So what are feminists appealing to the average man about?

One could argue that it does not matter as that is not their job to do. Does Black Lives Matters (not that I agree with them) have to 'be consistent' and also protest the deaths of white people killed by the police? No, but one can be from a different background and hold solidarity with their aims, something that is extremely beneficial because often various oppressed groups (i.e. women, minority groups) often do this in order to strengthen the politics of liberation. LGBT Labour, BAME Labour and Labour Women's Network all work very closely together internally within the structure of the Labour Party to ensure better representation in the party of oppressed groups.

So yeah, for me self-interest as someone from a minority background is a Quaternary factor, but annoyingly for you, I primarily support it because it is the right thing to do.

[New Edom]

Why should we obey traffic laws? Because they create safer roads. A combination of support for infrastructure, maintenance of a police force to maintain the rules, training drivers, etc makes it make sense. So that's a social agreement that I accept.

Why did William Wilberforce fight slavery? He believed that it was a Christian principle that all men were created in the image of God.

So what are feminists appealing to the average man about?

One could argue that it does not matter as that is not their job to do. Does Black Lives Matters (not that I agree with them) have to 'be consistent' and also protest the deaths of white people killed by the police? No, but one can be from a different background and hold solidarity with their aims, something that is extremely beneficial because often various oppressed groups (i.e. women, minority groups) often do this in order to strengthen the politics of liberation. LGBT Labour, BAME Labour and Labour Women's Network all work very closely together internally within the structure of the Labour Party to ensure better representation in the party of oppressed groups.

So yeah, for me self-interest as someone from a minority background is a Quaternary factor, but annoyingly for you, I primarily support it because it is the right thing to do.

So they don't want to convince people then? Then why should people support them?

[Arachno-Satinism]

I repeat, why should a man support feminism--on what ethical principles or what moral basis? I don't mean "because it's right" or "out of empathy" but according to what ethical principles?

"Out of empathy" is also an ethical principle. Well, I view it as a valid reason, at least.
I support feminism because I believe women are still heavily disandvantaged in my country and thus their empowerment is necessary to achieve equality.

[The Archregimancy]

"Enlightened self-interest" being what? Accepting the day when women decide to castrate me because my penis is a "rape weapon"? I prefer aggression because that is all men receive these days. Men have to fight because society treats them like shit. Women complain about being objectified in a sexual manner but willingly treat men as objects for their own use, as pawns. Men are seen as disposable, as simply a walking sack of semen. Men are only valued as something that can be used and disposed of. That's it. Society is hostile against men so what else do you expect men to do?

My point, ladies and gentlemen. See, back when feminism was actually about equality for women, feminists like Anita Sarkeesian would have been considered "radical feminists" and been relegated to the fringes of the movement. Now, she is mainstream and so are her views.

Liberal feminism doesn't exist anymore and those who do call themselves "liberal feminists" are only considered such because they don't harbour any castration fantasies.

Costa Fierro, both of these posts seem to tapdance their way along the 'all X are Y' and/or trolling line, with the first essentially stating without modifier that all women take the outlined position, and the second stating in a fairly baity way that all but one subset of feminists harbour castration fantasies.

Individually, neither of these posts quite cross the line. Cumulatively, your posting record here in this thread is taking on a strong whiff of baiting and trolling.

Given your record - and your resulting familiarity with rules that you continue to struggle with - I'm handing you a *** warning for trolling and baiting *** on the basis of your cumulative thread posting record here. Frankly, you're lucky to escape without another ban.

I strongly suggest you tone it down by adding qualifiers.

For example, both of the following would have kept you out of trouble:

'Many women complain about being objectified in a sexual manner but willingly treat men as objects for their own use...'

'Liberal feminism doesn't exist anymore and those who do call themselves "liberal feminists" are only considered such because they don't harbour the castration fantasies common to many other feminists.'

Note that I'm not personally arguing in favour of either of those - merely demonstrating how adding a couple of qualifiers can help keep a strong expression of heartfelt opinion from crossing the line into actionable behaviour.

[Wolfmanne2]

One could argue that it does not matter as that is not their job to do. Does Black Lives Matters (not that I agree with them) have to 'be consistent' and also protest the deaths of white people killed by the police? No, but one can be from a different background and hold solidarity with their aims, something that is extremely beneficial because often various oppressed groups (i.e. women, minority groups) often do this in order to strengthen the politics of liberation. LGBT Labour, BAME Labour and Labour Women's Network all work very closely together internally within the structure of the Labour Party to ensure better representation in the party of oppressed groups.

So yeah, for me self-interest as someone from a minority background is a Quaternary factor, but annoyingly for you, I primarily support it because it is the right thing to do.

So they don't want to convince people then? Then why should people support them?

Why do white people support civil rights groups? Why do non-LGBT people support LGBT rights activism? Why do men support feminist activism? Why do middle class people advocate for working class interests? There's more to life than 'what's in it for me'; there will always be sympathisers without a 'what's in it for me' mentality.

[Plvtowia]

Nope...

[New Edom]

So they don't want to convince people then? Then why should people support them?

Why do white people support civil rights groups? Why do non-LGBT people support LGBT rights activism? Why do men support feminist activism? Why do middle class people advocate for working class interests? There's more to life than 'what's in it for me'; there will always be sympathisers without a 'what's in it for me' mentality.

So in other words you don't have a convincing argument, just more insistence that you're right 'because'? Imagine you need my vote for a feminist initiative of some kind. Let's say you represent BLM and you want me to support you in shutting down Gay Pride in my city til they meet your demands to make it more inclusive and focus more on Black LGBT people. . I'm not sure I agree. How would you convince me?

[Costa Fierro]

So yeah, for me self-interest as someone from a minority background is a Quaternary factor, but annoyingly for you, I primarily support it because it is the right thing to do.

So why is it "the right thing to do" given that there is a lot of issues that feminism has with regards to its treatment of men and women?

[Arachno-Satinism]

So what are feminists appealing to the average man about?

Feminists, obviously, are appealing to the average man to care about women's rights, equality, and empowerment.

[New Edom]

So what are feminists appealing to the average man about?

Feminists, obviously, are appealing to the average man to care about women's rights, equality, and empowerment.

Alright, but why should men accept their analysis of society and respond as they claim we ought to?

[Wolfmanne2]

Why do white people support civil rights groups? Why do non-LGBT people support LGBT rights activism? Why do men support feminist activism? Why do middle class people advocate for working class interests? There's more to life than 'what's in it for me'; there will always be sympathisers without a 'what's in it for me' mentality.

So in other words you don't have a convincing argument, just more insistence that you're right 'because'? Imagine you need my vote for a feminist initiative of some kind. Let's say you represent BLM and you want me to support you in shutting down Gay Pride in my city til they meet your demands to make it more inclusive and focus more on Black LGBT people. . I'm not sure I agree. How would you convince me?

I'm not going to play hypothetical, especially one such as this which gives me a position I don't even agree with. I don't know why men's rights activists are obsessed with them; if we're going to talk, I'm not letting you stack the chessboard in your favour, or give you the perception that you've done so. The fact that you deny various facts such as the gender pay gap (which I'm sure you will happily debunk any moment) in itself makes it important to reason with you. Feel free to reinforce your own victim mentality, but it's just sad that you keep on doing this rather than acknowledge the fact that a lot of issues faced by men are related to other means of oppression other than gender, like class, race, sexual orientation, social status etc.

[New Edom]

So in other words you don't have a convincing argument, just more insistence that you're right 'because'? Imagine you need my vote for a feminist initiative of some kind. Let's say you represent BLM and you want me to support you in shutting down Gay Pride in my city til they meet your demands to make it more inclusive and focus more on Black LGBT people. . I'm not sure I agree. How would you convince me?

I'm not going to play hypothetical, especially one such as this which gives me a position I don't even agree with. I don't know why men's rights activists are obsessed with them; if we're going to talk, I'm not letting you stack the chessboard in your favour, or give you the perception that you've done so. The fact that you deny various facts such as the gender pay gap (which I'm sure you will happily debunk any moment) in itself makes it important to reason with you. Feel free to reinforce your own victim mentality, but it's just sad that you keep on doing this rather than acknowledge the fact that a lot of issues faced by men are related to other means of oppression other than gender, like class, race, sexual orientation, social status etc.

My own victim mentality? About what?

And seriously--this is an ideology you clearly passionately believe in, and you can't offer anything persuasive?

However I'll throw you another bone. Demonstrate to me that there are feminists (and not that one book Feminism is for Everybody by bell hooks) who are concerned about women who are abusive towards others and do not pawn it off on "the patriarchy made them do it" but actually hold them responsible for their conduct towards other women, men, the elderly and children and I'll change my approach.

[Wolfmanne2]

I'm not going to play hypothetical, especially one such as this which gives me a position I don't even agree with. I don't know why men's rights activists are obsessed with them; if we're going to talk, I'm not letting you stack the chessboard in your favour, or give you the perception that you've done so. The fact that you deny various facts such as the gender pay gap (which I'm sure you will happily debunk any moment) in itself makes it important to reason with you. Feel free to reinforce your own victim mentality, but it's just sad that you keep on doing this rather than acknowledge the fact that a lot of issues faced by men are related to other means of oppression other than gender, like class, race, sexual orientation, social status etc.

My own victim mentality? About what?

And seriously--this is an ideology you clearly passionately believe in, and you can't offer anything persuasive?

However I'll throw you another bone. Demonstrate to me that there are feminists (and not that one book Feminism is for Everybody by bell hooks) who are concerned about women who are abusive towards others and do not pawn it off on "the patriarchy made them do it" but actually hold them responsible for their conduct towards other women, men, the elderly and children and I'll change my approach.

Woman-on-woman violence is (broadly speaking) a law and order issue. It's not a gendered issue, just as a poor man stealing from another poor man is not one either; it is one clearly related to economic status, a deprivation of resource. Feminism is not responsible for everything that happens that involves an individual with a vagina.

I do believe in feminism. Passionately? No, not necessarily. For one I'm not a woman, so it's not my oppression and a feminist woman will always be a better advocate ten me, or will actually have experiences to base her feminism on. I, on the other hand, can only offer solidarity.

You clearly have a victim mentality than men are oppressed and women are privileged. It's one thing to believe that 'feminism is redundant after the second wave', but to actively argue that men are oppressed in contrast to women or have issues that are gendered (which isn't the case; I have not been in a situation where I've felt 'I'm being unfairly discriminated against for being a man') seems a bit ridiculous.

[Minzerland]

[...] You clearly have a victim mentality than men are oppressed and women are privileged. It's one thing to believe that 'feminism is redundant after the second wave', but to actively argue that men are oppressed in contrast to women or have issues that are gendered (which isn't the case; I have not been in a situation where I've felt 'I'm being unfairly discriminated against for being a man') seems a bit ridiculous.

Why is it such a ridiculous assertion that men are, in some shape or form, unfairly discriminated against or have issues that are gendered? Despite your anecdotes?

[Costa Fierro]

You clearly have a victim mentality than men are oppressed and women are privileged. It's one thing to believe that 'feminism is redundant after the second wave', but to actively argue that men are oppressed in contrast to women or have issues that are gendered (which isn't the case; I have not been in a situation where I've felt 'I'm being unfairly discriminated against for being a man') seems a bit ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is your refusal to even consider that men can be discriminated against in society by using the logic that "well I haven't experienced it so it does not exist". That is like saying "but I am not hungry, so there are no starving people".

Yes, men are discriminated against and men and said discrimination is unfair. It's a radical concept, but I'm sure you can come to grips with it.

[Dameth]

You clearly have a victim mentality than men are oppressed and women are privileged. It's one thing to believe that 'feminism is redundant after the second wave', but to actively argue that men are oppressed in contrast to women or have issues that are gendered (which isn't the case; I have not been in a situation where I've felt 'I'm being unfairly discriminated against for being a man') seems a bit ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is your refusal to even consider that men can be discriminated against in society by using the logic that "well I haven't experienced it so it does not exist". That is like saying "but I am not hungry, so there are no starving people".

Yes, men are discriminated against and men and said discrimination is unfair. It's a radical concept, but I'm sure you can come to grips with it.

Court system, gender quotas,genital integrity, work fatalities, suicide rate, reproductive rights, work quotas, gender representation in political sphere.
Just a few occasions off the top of my head where men are at institutionalized and unfair disadvantage.

I propose we get rid of the word "oppression". That's feminist linguo and doesnt mean anything in gender context. Besides, discriminations against men are not to be experienced to be understood. They are in plain sight for everyone to see. But I guess no matter how bright the colors are, it's no use to discuss them with the blind.

[Wolfmanne2]

No, what's ridiculous is your refusal to even consider that men can be discriminated against in society by using the logic that "well I haven't experienced it so it does not exist". That is like saying "but I am not hungry, so there are no starving people".

Yes, men are discriminated against and men and said discrimination is unfair. It's a radical concept, but I'm sure you can come to grips with it.

Court system, gender quotas,genital integrity, work fatalities, suicide rate, reproductive rights, work quotas, gender representation in political sphere.
Just a few occasions off the top of my head where men are at institutionalized and unfair disadvantage.

I propose we get rid of the word "oppression". That's feminist linguo and doesnt mean anything in gender context. Besides, discriminations against men are not to be experienced to be understood. They are in plain sight for everyone to see. But I guess no matter how bright the colors are, it's no use to discuss them with the blind.

Says the SWP rape apologist.

[Dameth]

Says the SWP rape apologist.

"When out of argument, cry for rape" - The no true feminist

[Wolfmanne2]

[...] You clearly have a victim mentality than men are oppressed and women are privileged. It's one thing to believe that 'feminism is redundant after the second wave', but to actively argue that men are oppressed in contrast to women or have issues that are gendered (which isn't the case; I have not been in a situation where I've felt 'I'm being unfairly discriminated against for being a man') seems a bit ridiculous.

Why is it such a ridiculous assertion that men are, in some shape or form, unfairly discriminated against or have issues that are gendered? Despite your anecdotes?

Well, men do have issues. They just aren't necessarily related to discrimination by gender.

You clearly have a victim mentality than men are oppressed and women are privileged. It's one thing to believe that 'feminism is redundant after the second wave', but to actively argue that men are oppressed in contrast to women or have issues that are gendered (which isn't the case; I have not been in a situation where I've felt 'I'm being unfairly discriminated against for being a man') seems a bit ridiculous.

No, what's ridiculous is your refusal to even consider that men can be discriminated against in society by using the logic that "well I haven't experienced it so it does not exist". That is like saying "but I am not hungry, so there are no starving people".

Yes, men are discriminated against and men and said discrimination is unfair. It's a radical concept, but I'm sure you can come to grips with it.

Well, I have experienced hunger, so I can conclude that there is a point in which hunger is unbearable and turns into starvation. That analogy doesn't work.

Says the SWP rape apologist.

"When out of argument, cry for rape" - The no true feminist

The SWP leadership covered up instances of rape within their own party. Can I ask, what ever did happen to 'Comrade Delta'?

[Dameth]

The SWP leadership covered up instances of rape within their own party. Can I ask, what ever did happen to 'Comrade Delta'?

I have no idea, anyway. I'm a french anarchist to begin with.
But really if it's a "feminist rape", like it means consensual sex she regretted or any variation on the "fart rape" (google it, hillarity garanteed), I'd say its no big deal.

[Wolfmanne2]

The SWP leadership covered up instances of rape within their own party. Can I ask, what ever did happen to 'Comrade Delta'?

I have no idea, anyway. I'm a french anarchist to begin with.
But really if it's a "feminist rape", like it means sex she regretted or any variation on the "fart rape" (google it, hillarity garanteed), I'd say its no big deal

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -rape.html

It was none of that.

Other sources if you don't like the Daily Mail:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... kers-party
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 448429.htm

[Liriena]

I already support several egalitarian movements, including feminism and black activism against racially biased police misconduct.

KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE
Ｉ ＡＭ ＬＡＵＧＨＩＮＧ ＭＹ ＦＵＣＫＩＮＧ ＡＳＳ ＩＮＴＯ ＯＵＴＥＲ ＳＰＡＣＥ

Geesh, you have an oversensitive sense of humour.