Turkey thread: now stuffed with more authoritarianism!

[Free Missouri]

That's the point.

Erdogan staged the coup to provoke a reaction among his people in his support so he now has the political capital he needs to purge his enemies.

This false flag narrative seems a bit complicated and unnecessary. Erdogan already has enough support plus us and eu as allies. Staging a coup against himself to boost his poll numbers is not entirely out of the realm of possibility but seems rather unlikely.

You're missing the point. It's not to "boost poll numbers", but rather to "Go on a total and complete rampage against his enemies using a stranglehold on the Judicial system without losing any poll numbers"

I'm sorry, but you can't just dismiss 2,700 judges without already having some planning and investigation into their views going on. The Coup was staged.

[Novus America]

Yes it would be preferable to capture him alive, but they did not put him out of play at all.

Erdogan on a plane has far less options than Erdogan on the ground. No live TV addresses, not visiting the crowds, limited comunication ability, limited advisers, reduced equipment to coordinate and view events, etc.

Any coup will be condemned but most people in the west would not be sad to see Erdogan go.

Killing in such a public manner would kill the coup. There is no way they could hide his death if they shot the transport down, which means the EU and NATO are almost immediately going to be talking about it, and condemning it. How might NATO, which has heavily armed forces in Turkey, respond to the death of a head of state? Just maybe President Obama authorizes US forces to take action against the coup. If they had killed him in a shoot out at the beginning of the coup it could have been days before that became evident.

Shooting down a jet to kill the president is also a couple steps past, arresting him or allowing him to flee to another country.

And if you fail you are going to be treated as a traitor no matter what. You go big or go to jail. A coup is an all or nothing gamble.

Accept killing the president may just make people more angry at you, he is a public figure well liked by a significant portion of the population. Doing it so dramatically only makes everything worse. You are making a very public statement to the effect off "this is how far we are willing to go." Which means you better be able and willing to back it up on the ground, because people are certainly going to flock to the streets to protest that shoot down.

With limited resources all you achieve in a shoot down is to further alienate any allies and the international community, embolden opposition, and potentially demoralize your own side. For the small gain of a dead enemy leader, who will be replaced and probably sin't doing much direct control of efforts to stop your coup.

He was not neutralized though. He was quite able to communicate. You have to take out the leaders ability to communicate. When you underestimate you are wrong.

What type of idiot does not realize modern planes have communications?

And F-16s have cannons, you could have just shot some holes in the wing to force it down without neccesarily killing him.

His communication on a plane is severely limited as compared to basically anywhere else.

Shooting the wings would just bring the plane down and kill Erdogan, and also cause your jets to get shot down by the enemy escort. Good job, they probably would get shoot down before they got in cannon range honestly.

Well I am not sure ig his plane had an escort, if it did well you would not be able to get that close.

Se you keep say "could do this, could do that". Obvious it is high risk. Fact is not killing him killed the coup. The coup could not have gone worse. You let him get in the air, you have no choice. All choices are bad, but you had to force down the plane, no matter what at the point. Otherwise, well we saw exactly what happened.

Now what type of plane was it? Flying command posts are a thing. But this did not appear to be one. Still letting him escape was stupid.

And the US never intervened in Turkish coups before. And killing the opposing leader happens in coups quite often. Because when you kill the leader you throw his followers into confusion. Back when enemy kings and generals fought on the battlefield you aimed to kill or capture them. Once the plane was up, capture was impossible unless the plane could be forced down. Forcing the plane down would have probably killed him anyway. And the coup might have failed anyway. But it was worth a shot.

If you have already committed treason by starting a coup, you have nothing to lose anyway.

[Novus America]

Gah. Look at them. Two horrible leaders sitting right next to each other. Disgusting.

Merkel a horrible leader? Whut.

Well she panders to Erdogan.

[Flauc]

Erdogan on a plane has far less options than Erdogan on the ground. No live TV addresses, not visiting the crowds, limited comunication ability, limited advisers, reduced equipment to coordinate and view events, etc.



Killing in such a public manner would kill the coup. There is no way they could hide his death if they shot the transport down, which means the EU and NATO are almost immediately going to be talking about it, and condemning it. How might NATO, which has heavily armed forces in Turkey, respond to the death of a head of state? Just maybe President Obama authorizes US forces to take action against the coup. If they had killed him in a shoot out at the beginning of the coup it could have been days before that became evident.

Shooting down a jet to kill the president is also a couple steps past, arresting him or allowing him to flee to another country.



Accept killing the president may just make people more angry at you, he is a public figure well liked by a significant portion of the population. Doing it so dramatically only makes everything worse. You are making a very public statement to the effect off "this is how far we are willing to go." Which means you better be able and willing to back it up on the ground, because people are certainly going to flock to the streets to protest that shoot down.

With limited resources all you achieve in a shoot down is to further alienate any allies and the international community, embolden opposition, and potentially demoralize your own side. For the small gain of a dead enemy leader, who will be replaced and probably sin't doing much direct control of efforts to stop your coup.



His communication on a plane is severely limited as compared to basically anywhere else.

Shooting the wings would just bring the plane down and kill Erdogan, and also cause your jets to get shot down by the enemy escort. Good job, they probably would get shoot down before they got in cannon range honestly.

Well I am not sure ig his plane had an escort, if it did well you would not be able to get that close.

Se you keep say "could do this, could do that". Obvious it is high risk. Fact is not killing him killed the coup. The coup could not have gone worse. You let him get in the air, you have no choice. All choices are bad, but you had to force down the plane, no matter what at the point. Otherwise, well we saw exactly what happened.

Now what type of plane was it? Flying command posts are a thing. But this did not appear to be one. Still letting him escape was stupid.

And the US never intervened in Turkish coups before. And killing the opposing leader happens in coups quite often. Because when you kill the leader you throw his followers into confusion. Back when enemy kings and generals fought on the battlefield you aimed to kill or capture them. Once the plane was up, capture was impossible unless the plane could be forced down. Forcing the plane down would have probably killed him anyway. And the coup might have failed anyway. But it was worth a shot.

If you have already committed treason by starting a coup, you have nothing to lose anyway.

If you kill a President that enjoys over 50% of support, then your coup basically automatically fails as people become more aggravated and the rest of the army possibly mobilized against the coupers.

Look what happened to the soldiers that participated in the coup: they got beaten badly.

Now, imagine what would happen if you killed a popular President?

You have enraged citizens. Even if your coup suceeds, civil disobedience, condemnations.

What matters is also what happens after the coup, if they suceed it doesn't matter, because they would be countered pretty soon.

Goodnight.

[Great Feng]

Return of the Rebels anyone?
"The Phantom Erdogan"
"Attack of the Terrorists"
"Revenge of the AKP"
"A new hope"
"The AKP strikes back"
"Return of the Rebels"

[Novus America]

That's the point.

Erdogan staged the coup to provoke a reaction among his people in his support so he now has the political capital he needs to purge his enemies.

This false flag narrative seems a bit complicated and unnecessary. Erdogan already has enough support plus us and eu as allies. Staging a coup against himself to boost his poll numbers is not entirely out of the realm of possibility but seems rather unlikely.

The thing is he tried to rewrite the constitution, but failed. As president he has few official powers. Something he is very unhappy with.

I do not know if he did it or not. But it seems like something he might do. He is not content with the power he has, he wants more. Power is like heroin, you cannot get enough, you keep wanting more and more, until it kills you.

[Free Missouri]

This false flag narrative seems a bit complicated and unnecessary. Erdogan already has enough support plus us and eu as allies. Staging a coup against himself to boost his poll numbers is not entirely out of the realm of possibility but seems rather unlikely.

The thing is he tried to rewrite the constitution, but failed. As president he has few official powers. Something he is very unhappy with.

I do not know if he did it or not. But it seems like something he might do. He is not content with the power he has, he wants more. Power is like heroin, you cannot get enough, you keep wanting more and more, until it kills you.

As I said earlier:

This false flag narrative seems a bit complicated and unnecessary. Erdogan already has enough support plus us and eu as allies. Staging a coup against himself to boost his poll numbers is not entirely out of the realm of possibility but seems rather unlikely.

You're missing the point. It's not to "boost poll numbers", but rather to "Go on a total and complete rampage against his enemies using a stranglehold on the Judicial system without losing any poll numbers"

I'm sorry, but you can't just dismiss 2,700 judges without already having some planning and investigation into their views going on. The Coup was staged.

[Novus America]

Well I am not sure ig his plane had an escort, if it did well you would not be able to get that close.

Se you keep say "could do this, could do that". Obvious it is high risk. Fact is not killing him killed the coup. The coup could not have gone worse. You let him get in the air, you have no choice. All choices are bad, but you had to force down the plane, no matter what at the point. Otherwise, well we saw exactly what happened.

Now what type of plane was it? Flying command posts are a thing. But this did not appear to be one. Still letting him escape was stupid.

And the US never intervened in Turkish coups before. And killing the opposing leader happens in coups quite often. Because when you kill the leader you throw his followers into confusion. Back when enemy kings and generals fought on the battlefield you aimed to kill or capture them. Once the plane was up, capture was impossible unless the plane could be forced down. Forcing the plane down would have probably killed him anyway. And the coup might have failed anyway. But it was worth a shot.

If you have already committed treason by starting a coup, you have nothing to lose anyway.

If you kill a President that enjoys over 50% of support, then your coup basically automatically fails as people become more aggravated and the rest of the army possibly mobilized against the coupers.

Look what happened to the soldiers that participated in the coup: they got beaten badly.

Now, imagine what would happen if you killed a popular President?

You have enraged citizens. Even if your coup suceeds, civil disobedience, condemnations.

What matters is also what happens after the coup, if they suceed it doesn't matter, because they would be countered pretty soon.

Which again begs the whole question, why launch a coup that is doomed to fail in the first place? At least if it fails and you kill him, you know at least got rid of him. And AKP is a very fragile and divers collation, Erdogan is the thing holding it together. With him gone you have a chance of its various factions fighting each other to replace him. Yes it is a long shot. But again they had nothing to lose. If you are dead anyways, go down fighting.

[Novus America]

The thing is he tried to rewrite the constitution, but failed. As president he has few official powers. Something he is very unhappy with.

I do not know if he did it or not. But it seems like something he might do. He is not content with the power he has, he wants more. Power is like heroin, you cannot get enough, you keep wanting more and more, until it kills you.

As I said earlier:

You're missing the point. It's not to "boost poll numbers", but rather to "Go on a total and complete rampage against his enemies using a stranglehold on the Judicial system without losing any poll numbers"

I'm sorry, but you can't just dismiss 2,700 judges without already having some planning and investigation into their views going on. The Coup was staged.

You might very well be right. Hitler did not do the Reichstag fire to boost his poll numbers. He did it to fundamentally alter Germany and destroy all opposition.

[Great Feng]

The thing is he tried to rewrite the constitution, but failed. As president he has few official powers. Something he is very unhappy with.

I do not know if he did it or not. But it seems like something he might do. He is not content with the power he has, he wants more. Power is like heroin, you cannot get enough, you keep wanting more and more, until it kills you.

As I said earlier:

You're missing the point. It's not to "boost poll numbers", but rather to "Go on a total and complete rampage against his enemies using a stranglehold on the Judicial system without losing any poll numbers"

I'm sorry, but you can't just dismiss 2,700 judges without already having some planning and investigation into their views going on. The Coup was staged.

But there wouldn't be enough loyalists to Edogan to die for him like that.

[Free Missouri]

As I said earlier:

But there wouldn't be enough loyalists to Edogan to die for him like that.

Not everyone would have to be a loyalist. He could've just had one of the officers who were loyal to him gather his enemies and stir them to action.

[Great Feng]

You know, I'm beginning to wonder that if erdogan continues becoming more brutal and dictatorial, if there will be a war to remove him, and if that causes WW3.
Though even WW3 doesn't start(Like if Russia doesn't get involved), is this realistically possible for a war against Turkey and the brutal government? If so, how hard would it be to win?

[Imperializt Russia]

Realistic, yes, but I was actually implying that the whole "US is Balkanizing the Mid East to stop ISIS" thing would be pretty counterproductive in reality.

No no, the US is using ISIS to Balkanize the middle east. That is the conspiracy theory.

Which is irrational.

You see, the middle east won't threaten US interests broadly, because they do not and never will have the capability to. The US has many interests in the middle east.

Were this conspiracy correct, it would be the US constantly punching itself in the face, and wondering why its nose hurts, so it punches itself in the face harder out of irritation.

[Western Weyard]

You know, I'm beginning to wonder that if erdogan continues becoming more brutal and dictatorial, if there will be a war to remove him, and if that causes WW3.
Though even WW3 doesn't start(Like if Russia doesn't get involved), is this realistically possible for a war against Turkey and the brutal government? If so, how hard would it be to win?

Given the fact that the EU (minus Greece, maybe) and Israel would most certainly not get involved... That would leave the US and maybe the UK. Do the math.

[Great Feng]

You know, I'm beginning to wonder that if erdogan continues becoming more brutal and dictatorial, if there will be a war to remove him, and if that causes WW3.
Though even WW3 doesn't start(Like if Russia doesn't get involved), is this realistically possible for a war against Turkey and the brutal government? If so, how hard would it be to win?

Given the fact that the EU (minus Greece, maybe) and Israel would most certainly not get involved... That would leave the US and maybe the UK. Do the math.

NATO may kick Turkey out, and invade them claiming Erdogan has become worse than Assad and needs to be gone.
Likely?
No, but realistically possible.

[Western Weyard]

NATO may kick Turkey out, and invade them claiming Erdogan has become worse than Assad and needs to be gone.
Likely?
No, but realistically possible.

Highly unlikely actually.
Right now Erdogan is, to quote our esteemed Federal Chancellor, Angela Merkel: "Alternativlos" (without alternative (regardless of the facts)).

[Great Feng]

NATO may kick Turkey out, and invade them claiming Erdogan has become worse than Assad and needs to be gone.
Likely?
No, but realistically possible.

Highly unlikely actually.
Right now Erdogan is, to quote our esteemed Federal Chancellor, Angela Merkel: "Alternativlos" (without alternative (regardless of the facts)).

Well sh*t.
We're f*cked.

[Western Weyard]

Highly unlikely actually.
Right now Erdogan is, to quote our esteemed Federal Chancellor, Angela Merkel: "Alternativlos" (without alternative (regardless of the facts)).

Well sh*t.
We're f*cked.

Not all is lost!

She could always declare that Erdogan "has her fullest confidence" and he would resign shortly after, just like every other official who has been labeled as such.

[Communist Xomaniax]

NATO may kick Turkey out, and invade them claiming Erdogan has become worse than Assad and needs to be gone.
Likely?
No, but realistically possible.

Highly unlikely actually.
Right now Erdogan is, to quote our esteemed Federal Chancellor, Angela Merkel: "Alternativlos" (without alternative regardless of the facts)

The guy's a fundamenalist muslim nutter, to Merkel that means he is a saint that can do no wrong, and that she is at any point ready to open up her country and her legs to him.

Fuck Erdogan. Real shame the coup failed, though given how much he had already done and how fundamenalist Turks are, it's not surprising. Not looking forward to the new Islamic Republic.

[Geilinor]

Highly unlikely actually.
Right now Erdogan is, to quote our esteemed Federal Chancellor, Angela Merkel: "Alternativlos" (without alternative regardless of the facts)

The guy's a fundamenalist muslim nutter, to Merkel that means he is a saint that can do no wrong, and that she is at any point ready to open up her country and her legs to him.

Fuck Erdogan. Real shame the coup failed, though given how much he had already done and how fundamenalist Turks are, it's not surprising. Not looking forward to the new Islamic Republic.

Nobody, including Merkel, things that Erdogan is a saint, but after the failure of the coup which was badly planned or just a false flag by Erdogan, what alternative is there? Half of Turkey supports him for one reason or another.

[Husseinarti]

Gah. Look at them. Two horrible leaders sitting right next to each other. Disgusting.

Merkel a horrible leader? Whut.

Yeah all those 2,000 German women sexually assaulted in Cologne had it COMING! Merkal dindu nuffin

[Novus America]

No no, the US is using ISIS to Balkanize the middle east. That is the conspiracy theory.

Which is irrational.

it would be the US constantly punching itself in the face, and wondering why its nose hurts, so it punches itself in the face harder out of irritation.

While I do not believe that their is any conspiracy, that sentence sums up our Middle East policy quite nicely.

[Nariterrr]

Merkel a horrible leader? Whut.

Yeah all those 2,000 German women sexually assaulted in Cologne had it COMING! Merkal dindu nuffin

Your joking right.

[Great Feng]

Turkey is fucked.
Erdogan is becoming more brutal.
And this coup attempt now seems possible now to have been a false flag.
So we're fucked.

[Cedoria]

Unfortunate the coup failed. The overthrow of Erdogan is long overdue. But nevertheless it was a hopeful sign that he has not eradicated all resistance.

Whether I would speak for the post-Erdogan government would depend on their behaviour, but the overthrow of a theocratic, tyrannical dictator is always a good thing, hopefully this means Erdogan doesn't have long too go, crackdowns like this always backfire eventually.

My hope is the Turkish people can soon free themselves of this monomaniac and his thuggish gang of brown shirts, but we'll see what the future brings.

I'm pessimistic about this failure and the people who died of course, but I'm optimistic about the future of Turkey, and lack of future for Erdogan.