Truck Drives Through Crowd in Nice, France

[Olerand]

The Saudis are the vector of this toxic ideology. The IS is Wahhabi, Saudi Arabia is the origin of Wahhabism.

Even Iran is less extreme that Saudi Arabia.

True, and less dangerous. Iran is Shia, the Shia are a minority, fought and hated by the Islamic majority. They're even less of a threat.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Have there been further updates on who was behind this, out of curiosity? Folks seem to be pretty caught up on things hereabouts, so it seemed a fair shot to ask rather than go digging initially, which I'll probably do later in any case.

It's a damn shame, however it came about. The primary problem we have, no matter where we are, is that regardless of any and all protections put in place, no one can with 100% efficiency, foresee the actions of one person deciding to do something awful in the spur of the moment. Granted, one can argue education, and mental health promotion and coverage, but at the end of the day, that's kind of the reality. And I think it scares some of our leaders half to death. So we get a lot of visual 'we are doing all we can' stuff going on, when in fact, it tends to be more to reassure the citizens that they will somehow be safer on account.

For certain actions, sure, there are steps that can be taken, depending where one is at, what the rules of the land are, what the limitations of the government and police and what not are, and what the citizens are willing to assist with or put up with. That doesn't do away with what I mentioned earlier, however. The actions of one person intent on taking an action that results in the injury or death of others cannot with a certainty be predicted. And if this is what that was ... I'm not sure what people expect the government, the international arena, or anyone else to do about it.

And if it was terrorist-planned and executed? What then? We're already fighting Daesh here, there, and everywhere, I doubt anywhere with regular news coverage is unaware of the problem or the aftermath of their actions - wherever they've been, including the homelands they've been terrorizing the worst (a fact most of us recognize, even if some folks refuse to believe it of us).

Whatever the cause, I'm sorry it happened, and I'm sorry more people have lost their lives due to the actions of a few, or even one. I will continue to hope, in spite of all odds, that humanity overall will get their shit together, and we'll stop running around killing, maiming, torturing one another here sooner or later, but until the time that magically happens, I'm afraid I won't be holding my breath.

[Patridam]

Even Iran is less extreme that Saudi Arabia.

True, and less dangerous. Iran is Shia, the Shia are a minority, fought and hated by the Islamic majority. They're even less of a threat.

Wahhabis aren't the majority, either, are they? I thought the Sunnis were the majority?

[Unified Governments]

Would it be possible for you to participate in any thread without being as snide as you are rude?

Certainly. Would you prefer me to be more snide than I am rude, or more rude than I am snide?

I'd prefer you not to be a cheap-shot artist and then whine endlessly if others do the same. Seeing it go on for so long grows tiresome after a while. Especially when you're so uncreative.

[IndependentGreenland]

The Saudis are the vector of this toxic ideology. The IS is Wahhabi, Saudi Arabia is the origin of Wahhabism.

The problem has spread far beyond Saudi Arabia.

Yes but Saudi Arabia is the seed that started this all. Isn't it a coincidence that Islam itself started there as well?!

[Yumyumsuppertime]

"They do it, too"? Seriously? Did we end up hashing this out on the elementary school playground or something?

Forget I said anything, and come back to me when you can discuss this as grownups do.

The Leftists take cheap shots at people far more that Rightists. Yet the Left get pissed when a Rightist cheap shots.

You missed the entire point of my post, there. I no longer care to have this or any other discussion with you.

[Republic of Wijaya]

Yes you are right, but we can prevent this right ? So we can minimize the number of victim.
And where the France Police at tragedy ?

No, we cannot prevent someone from driving a truck into a crowd.

Um... There. But the police can't form a human child to stop an unforeseen truck attack on a crowd.

Hm...,Yeah you right Police just human. But that Bombing Truck is Really Successful, if the Purpose is To Terror the France and Prove that France is Weak, What do you think ?

[Eol Sha]

Am I saying that everyone will become pre-Western secularists celebrating religious pluralism and tolerance? No. But it clearly did work to an extent in Iran and Afghanistan. But, as dictators often do, they fucked it up.

I think Tunisia is a good, if flawed, example. And Turkey has adopted and largely maintained Western values for nearly a century. Although Erdogan has been chipping away more and more at those values. And Morocco and Jordan have been edging further and further away from the reactionary elements of their societies.

Hospitals can effect ideological change in an indirect way. In the sense that you need knowledge and technology to make them effective. Well, the answer to that is to keep fighting them until you've won.

You are giving examples of successful Westernization of the bourgeoisie. Look to Tehran today and you will see that is true. That is however meaningless to the vast majority of the rest of the population, who is not bourgeois. That is why Ennahda wins in Tunisia, the AKP in Turkey, etc.

Meaningless, that's not what the Enlightenment is about. That's the scientific revolution. It can occur without the Enlightenment, as East Asia shows.

The point is that those countries have seen parts of the population embracing non-fundamentalist cultures. That it is possible to convince people to embrace non-fundamentalist ideologies without using violence or coercion.

Ennahda is no longer in power.

I have to disagree. The two are connected. You cannot have an enlightenment without a society being exposed to science and the forces that make the world what it is.

[Olerand]

Thanks to the urban bourgeoisie, who won with a plurality of the vote. It should win the next one, considering how terrible Nidaa Tunis is.

That shows successful Westernization can happen if you have a large enough urban bourgeoisie. Industrialization and urbanization need to happen.

Industrialization is not synonymous with being bourgeois. You need a lot more factors, factors that don't exist in the Islamic world.

The Saudis are the vector of this toxic ideology. The IS is Wahhabi, Saudi Arabia is the origin of Wahhabism.

The problem has spread far beyond Saudi Arabia.

Indeed it has, thanks to Saudi Arabia.

But they won't. Just like how Al-Qaeda didn't stop attacking after America annihilated its Taliban-sponsored HQs on the ground in Afghanistan.

That's up to discussion I suppose. But between the french solution of increasing the state of emergency at home and taking the fight into enemy territory, I happen to prefer the second solution a lot more. Doing nothing is not an option anymore at this point.

I think you're overselling us. We can't "take the fight into enemy territory". Nor should we. This is the Arab world's fight. I now regret shielding them from it.

[The East Marches]

Even Iran is less extreme that Saudi Arabia.

True, and less dangerous. Iran is Shia, the Shia are a minority, fought and hated by the Islamic majority. They're even less of a threat.

Perhaps at the moment yes. Geo-politically in the long run, they are the same. The Shia are the ones whose radicalism caused so much shit in Iraq. They are trouble as well.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The problem has spread far beyond Saudi Arabia.

Yes but Saudi Arabia is the seed that started this all. Isn't it a coincidence that Islam itself started there as well?!

Not at all. I mean, Christianity started in what is now Israel, and that place is in constant turmoil. Seems to hold true for most of the major modern religions.

[IndependentGreenland]

Certainly. Would you prefer me to be more snide than I am rude, or more rude than I am snide?

I'd prefer you not to be a cheap-shot artist and then whine endlessly if others do the same. Seeing it go on for so long grows tiresome after a while. Especially when you're so uncreative.

I'm not a cheap shot artist or do I try to be. The Left is full of cheap shot mantra.... So much that I cannot comprehend.

[Eol Sha]

True, and less dangerous. Iran is Shia, the Shia are a minority, fought and hated by the Islamic majority. They're even less of a threat.

Wahhabis aren't the majority, either, are they? I thought the Sunnis were the majority?

Wahhabis are Sunnis.

[IndependentGreenland]

Yes but Saudi Arabia is the seed that started this all. Isn't it a coincidence that Islam itself started there as well?!

Not at all. I mean, Christianity started in what is now Israel, and that place is in constant turmoil. Seems to hold true for most of the major modern religions.

If Hamas (an Islamic terrorist group) would stop firing rockets into Israel maybe the place would be in a bit less turmoil.

[Patridam]

Wahhabis aren't the majority, either, are they? I thought the Sunnis were the majority?

Wahhabis are Sunnis.

One in the same, or a subtype?

[Dameth]

That's backwards and kind of stupid to be frank. You can't tell people to not feel sad for the deaths of innocent people in a country they're fond of.

I can't tell you what to do. Just realize people weeping on our behalf is irritating and makes you appear weak af.

That's easier said than done. And in that case I would suggest that France actually do more than just bombing which isn't nearly as effective.

That's sensible. I would not mind a big bad retributive strike. Or at least some financial help for local militias. Let's give the YPG some guns if we can't land more boots. They want to fight, let's make it happen.

[Geilinor]

Wahhabis are Sunnis.

One in the same, or a subtype?

A subtype.

[Salus Maior]

Yes but Saudi Arabia is the seed that started this all. Isn't it a coincidence that Islam itself started there as well?!

Not at all. I mean, Christianity started in what is now Israel, and that place is in constant turmoil. Seems to hold true for most of the major modern religions.

Not for reasons that necessarily pertain to Christianity, however. But rather Zionism, which Christians are becoming victims of.

Not that I'm agreeing with Greenland on what I'm guessing is some anti-all-Muslim statement.

[Olerand]

True, and less dangerous. Iran is Shia, the Shia are a minority, fought and hated by the Islamic majority. They're even less of a threat.

Wahhabis aren't the majority, either, are they? I thought the Sunnis were the majority?

Yes they are, the Sunnis hate the Shia.

No, we cannot prevent someone from driving a truck into a crowd.

Um... There. But the police can't form a human child to stop an unforeseen truck attack on a crowd.

Hm...,Yeah you right Police just human. But that Bombing Truck is Really Successful, if the Purpose is To Terror the France and Prove that France is Weak, What do you think ?

Both.

You are giving examples of successful Westernization of the bourgeoisie. Look to Tehran today and you will see that is true. That is however meaningless to the vast majority of the rest of the population, who is not bourgeois. That is why Ennahda wins in Tunisia, the AKP in Turkey, etc.

Meaningless, that's not what the Enlightenment is about. That's the scientific revolution. It can occur without the Enlightenment, as East Asia shows.

The point is that those countries have seen parts of the population embracing non-fundamentalist cultures. That it is possible to convince people to embrace non-fundamentalist ideologies without using violence or coercion.

Ennahda is no longer in power.

I have to disagree. The two are connected. You cannot have an enlightenment without a society being exposed to science and the forces that make the world what it is.

Parts of the population is not enough. We need a culture change. We need the proletariat to reform.

It will return. It was kicked out because it hurt the urban bourgeoisie's check-books and will come back next elections.

I still disagree. East Asia has adopted the scientific revolution entirely, yet very small parts of it have adopted the Enlightenment.

[Kubra]

Wahhabis are Sunnis.

One in the same, or a subtype?

that's like picking out the paleoconservatives at the RNC
I mean, yeah, they're technically distinct, but also you're at the RNC

[Novus America]

The Saudis are the vector of this toxic ideology. The IS is Wahhabi, Saudi Arabia is the origin of Wahhabism.

The problem has spread far beyond Saudi Arabia.

True, the cancer has spread far beyond. But Saudi Arabia is still the biggest and most malignant tumor.

[IndependentGreenland]

One in the same, or a subtype?

A subtype.

Salafists are another dangerous subtype

[Olerand]

True, and less dangerous. Iran is Shia, the Shia are a minority, fought and hated by the Islamic majority. They're even less of a threat.

Perhaps at the moment yes. Geo-politically in the long run, they are the same. The Shia are the ones whose radicalism caused so much shit in Iraq. They are trouble as well.

Iraq is not the Muslim world at large. Clearly, Iran urges Saudi Arabia forward in a never ending show-down, but Shia Islam is a minority and less of a threat, simply due to its numbers.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Certainly. Would you prefer me to be more snide than I am rude, or more rude than I am snide?

I'd prefer you not to be a cheap-shot artist and then whine endlessly if others do the same. Seeing it go on for so long grows tiresome after a while. Especially when you're so uncreative.

I'll take the occasional shot at individuals, but never at entire groups (which is what I was complaining about there), nor will I rely entirely on said shots in place of an actual argument (as was happening in that case), nor do I whine that other people do it, too, when called out on it (as happened there).

However, I am truly sorry to have disappointed you with my lack of creativity, and will try much harder to meet your exacting standards of originality when it comes to online discourse in the future. In the meantime, I will just have to find some way of living with myself.

[Eol Sha]

I believe the message trying to be relayed is don't blame all Muslims for the actions of a few radicals. That peaceful co-existence is the only way to defeat the forces of violence and religious radicalism.

But it is utterly meaningless when an IS fanatic drives into a crowd, who probably included Muslims too. You cannot coexist with such a person, and here, there is only him and the crowd. Who should coexist? Coexisting with fanatical Islam is impossible, clearly. So who's supposed to be coexisting?

The message is that you co-exist with vast majority of Muslims that live their lives like any other person of any other kind of religious persuasion who's trying to live comfortably and without incident. That you don't call any Muslim you meet a terrorist. That you don't terrorize them with threats and beatings. That you defend their right to practice their religion peacefully like you would a Christian or a Jew.