Truck Drives Through Crowd in Nice, France

[The Celtic British Isles]

I am not against immigration (Immigration is a vital part of a working modern society) But this schengen area and this open door "Refugee" policy is BS

You realise the Schengen Area only eliminates border controls between some European states, right? The borders aren't open. In fact, border controls within Schengen are often partially instated or temporarily fully instated in various countries in Europe.

I do, But the schengen area is often used by criminals to flee nations, making it harder to find them. Also it allows for illegal weapons sales to happen much more easily.

[Felrik]

Remind the French in 100 years, so they may enact their own justice on the 'good' 'innocent' Muslims.

Are you suggesting Muslims are not innocent people? Even thoose who have nothing with terrorism.

But by your logic, even if there innocent they are still related to theses terrorists by religion, so they must pay for there crimes just like yours say France does.

[Impireacht]

I never defend imperialism. Don't change the topic. You can try to look clever to shift the focus but it won't work.

I am reading your posts and replying. When you are beat, you merely shift to another topic or leave entirely. You've done this in a few threads now. I want a solid reply to the points made. It shows the bankruptcy of both your side and your ideals that you would resort to that when on the backfoot.

Sorry then, I'm not aware of how attacking me does anything on my arguments. I think my flakiness and unwillingness to debate about whether brown people are okay or not with racists on the internet is entirely unrelated to the fact that not being a racist imperialist is the modern, fact-based, and non-evil point of view.

Regardless, I'm not going to submit to your baseless claims. I've been debating quite dutifully for one tasked with doing so against half a dozen frothing anti-Islam posters who are entirely willing to tell me about how stupid Muslims are and how good it was back when white people were entirely on top rather than mostly on top. Please, kindly, step off of me and focus on argumentation.

What the hell... you know that Islam is a religion not a race right? Or that being White isn't a religion? Religious discrimination is in no way "racist", and in no way are they supporting "white imperialism" by disagreeing with the viewpoints of a religion.

[Freefall11111]

You realise the Schengen Area only eliminates border controls between some European states, right? The borders aren't open. In fact, border controls within Schengen are often partially instated or temporarily fully instated in various countries in Europe.

I do, But the schengen area is often used by criminals to flee nations, making it harder to find them. Also it allows for illegal weapons sales to happen much more easily.

Fleeing from one European nation to another isn't going to do any criminals much good, seeing as how intelligence and law enforcement services are deeply connected across all of Europe.

[Minzerland]

Remind the French in 100 years, so they may enact their own justice on the 'good' 'innocent' Muslims.

Are you suggesting Muslims are not innocent people? Even thoose who have nothing with terrorism.

Yep, since the descendant must feel guilt for their ancestors actions in your worldview, so will the Muslims

[Patridam]

There is a good chance the driver was born and raised in France.

muh immigration tho?

If he wasn't an immigrant, his parents were most likely.

However it should be apparant after the Pulse that radicalization of muslims born in western countries is more of a problem than trained radicals coming into western countries.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Are you suggesting Muslims are not innocent people? Even thoose who have nothing with terrorism.

Yep, since the descendant must feel guilt for their ancestors actions in your worldview, so will the Muslims

But it's different, they aren't white scum.

[Washington Resistance Army]

But remember, unchecked immigration is still a good idea!

There is a good chance the driver was born and raised in France.

IIRC someone (one of our French users I think) earlier in the thread said the guy was from Tunisia, no idea how true that is but that's all I've heard on it.

[Patridam]

Remind the French in 100 years, so they may enact their own justice on the 'good' 'innocent' Muslims.

Are you suggesting Muslims are not innocent people? Even thoose who have nothing with terrorism.

So a French person whose ancestors may or may not have contributed to French colonialism is guilty and deserves to pay reparations, but a Muslim whose brother is a terrorist is innocent?

Can't have it both ways.

[Dameth]

I get where Westoropa is coming from, and I appreciate the underlying sentiment of their argument, but I for one would very much rather we did not idealize non-Western societies for the sake of our critique of Western societies.

Pretty much. I had a talk with that Turkish soldier, and because I wanted to poke him, I asked him kindly to stop bombing the kurds. He answered something to the tune of "we don't want to do that, but Erdogan is a shameless asshole and he's purging the military from officers who disagree, I hope we have a military coup sometimes soon".

Thing is, middle eastern country have a rich politic life, and summing them up to stuff like "west bad muslims good" or vice versa is retarded and an insult to both of them.

Up to the end of modernity, every power that could have a colonial empire had one, for industrial reasons. We must accept that and move on, this has nothing to do with the matter at hand anyway.

[Salus Maior]

What worldview?

For instance? Those who cite Leviticus as a justification for opposing LGBT+ rights. They are, sadly, quite plentiful.

I am well aware that those laws in the Old Testament are not, in a strict sense, binding to Christians. Menassa, NSG's beloved scholar of everything Jewish, made that quite clear on several occasions. However, there are several Christians who are either unaware of this, or knowingly disregard it.

Mind you, I am not arguing that "two wrongs make a right" or anything of the sort. As I said, there is much about the Quran that I find intolerable, and I for one am not interested in converting to Islam, nor am I going to try and engage in apologism for the Islamic holy text.

Those people would be what we call "Biblical literalists", and nobody likes them and nor are they a very strong or numerous group.

However, categorizing homosexual sex as a sin is doctrine in the majority of the Church, based mostly in the Epistles which does not prescribe any kind of real earthly punishment for it. It is stated more as a spiritual issue than anything else.

[Minzerland]

Yep, since the descendant must feel guilt for their ancestors actions in your worldview, so will the Muslims

But it's different, they aren't white scum.

You forgot the 'Het' prefix; homosexuals can't do wrong.

[Freefall11111]

There is a good chance the driver was born and raised in France.

IIRC someone (one of our French users I think) earlier in the thread said the guy was from Tunisia, no idea how true that is but that's all I've heard on it.

English sources are calling him Tunisian. It's unclear if this means he's from Tunisia, or if his parents/grandparents/great grandparents are from Tunisia and he looks Tunisian, therefore the media reports him as one.

[The Celtic British Isles]

I do, But the schengen area is often used by criminals to flee nations, making it harder to find them. Also it allows for illegal weapons sales to happen much more easily.

Fleeing from one European nation to another isn't going to do any criminals much good, seeing as how intelligence and law enforcement services are deeply connected across all of Europe.

Overall, i am more worried about the refugee policy. It feels like the EU feels they have an obligation to take these refugees, despite the fact that it only ends up hurting their nation.

[Freefall11111]

Fleeing from one European nation to another isn't going to do any criminals much good, seeing as how intelligence and law enforcement services are deeply connected across all of Europe.

Overall, i am more worried about the refugee policy. It feels like the EU feels they have an obligation to take these refugees, despite the fact that it only ends up hurting their nation.

We do have a moral obligation to take on refugees. The only question is how many and what policies we pursue to integrate them until the war is over.

[Impireacht]

Okay, label me what you want. In other's eyes I'm the complete opposite, such is the nature of centrism in a political climate ruled by extremes. Certainly not the worst I've been called xD

Btw, the west isn't composed entirely of Whites lol.

The West isn't completely composed of whites, you are correct. Astute.

You aren't a centrist if you feel that Western imperialism hasn't had a huge role in building the world's current nearly entirely Western power core of Western Europe and North America.

I guess I'm not a centrist anymore, because the holy stucco house has spoken. Nevermind my centre-right political compass, or my own damn word.

[Dushan]

Sorry then, I'm not aware of how attacking me does anything on my arguments. I think my flakiness and unwillingness to debate about whether brown people are okay or not with racists on the internet is entirely unrelated to the fact that not being a racist imperialist is the modern, fact-based, and non-evil point of view.

Regardless, I'm not going to submit to your baseless claims. I've been debating quite dutifully for one tasked with doing so against half a dozen frothing anti-Islam posters who are entirely willing to tell me about how stupid Muslims are and how good it was back when white people were entirely on top rather than mostly on top. Please, kindly, step off of me and focus on argumentation.

I should, perhaps in that context, mention that there are - especially in salafist subculture in Germany and among ISIS itself - many Islamists who're actually ethnically "white" People of european descent.

[Geilinor]

Fleeing from one European nation to another isn't going to do any criminals much good, seeing as how intelligence and law enforcement services are deeply connected across all of Europe.

Overall, i am more worried about the refugee policy. It feels like the EU feels they have an obligation to take these refugees, despite the fact that it only ends up hurting their nation.

The radicalization of people born and raised in Europe is much more of a concern than the refugees.

[Patridam]

Overall, i am more worried about the refugee policy. It feels like the EU feels they have an obligation to take these refugees, despite the fact that it only ends up hurting their nation.

We do have a moral obligation to take on refugees. The only question is how many and what policies we pursue to integrate them until the war is over.

Can the "how many" be 1? One refugee to the USA, there we go, that's our *cough* moral obligation *cough* solved.

Never mind that those countries wouldn't lift a finger to help the west if we wanted to send them refugees, we're so morally obliged.

[The Celtic British Isles]

Overall, i am more worried about the refugee policy. It feels like the EU feels they have an obligation to take these refugees, despite the fact that it only ends up hurting their nation.

We do have a moral obligation to take on refugees. The only question is how many and what policies we pursue to integrate them until the war is over.

No we don't! Do you think for a minute that if France was engulfed in a civil war that Syria would take in a single refugee? Also, what happens when the civil war is over, do we just tell them to go back?! What if they refuse!?

[Liriena]

Right, the stupid Muslims are just too stupid to understand their stupid religion is fake and evil. Right. But you're no bigot, just tellin' it like it is.

I don't recall calling Muslims stupid, ever.

Just for whatever reason they seem incapable of recognizing the obvious bigotry and wanton violence and destruction in their religion (all religions are fake, so I don't know what you're on about there) while Jews and Christians have done an infinitely better job (Hindus had the nice headstart of having a pretty peaceful religion to start with).

Maybe that reason is, Oh, they have a lot more bigotry and violent teachings to overcome in the first place? And its way more ingrained in their culture?

Or that their moderates just call themselves that so they can absolve themselves of terrorism and extremism as they do nothing to stop gays being thrown off their roofs? And that their liberals are more concerned with whining on the internet about conservatives being mean to Islam than they are actually solving the goddamn problems in their own religion?

You are being embarrassingly simplistic.

Thousands of Muslims are fighting against Islamic fundamentalism as we speak. In Syria and Iraq, Muslim soldiers, paramilitaries and police officers are fighting ISIS. Thousands more march against terrorism while several members of the clergy cooperate with governments.

As for Christians and Jews doing "an infinitely better job"? A bit disingenuous.

[Freefall11111]

The West isn't completely composed of whites, you are correct. Astute.

You aren't a centrist if you feel that Western imperialism hasn't had a huge role in building the world's current nearly entirely Western power core of Western Europe and North America.

I guess I'm not a centrist anymore, because the holy stucco house has spoken. Nevermind my centre-right political compass, or my own damn word.

I'm curious: What kind of possible historical narrative do you follow that leads to the conclusion that Western imperialism didn't shape the current world? I'm honestly surprised this is even disputed by anyone.

[Novus America]

Overall, i am more worried about the refugee policy. It feels like the EU feels they have an obligation to take these refugees, despite the fact that it only ends up hurting their nation.

We do have a moral obligation to take on refugees. The only question is how many and what policies we pursue to integrate them until the war is over.

Well you only have a moral obligation to protect the refugees that actually reach your country. You have no obligation to seek them out. The burden of proof is on the refugee to prove the are a refugee. And you can house refugees in camps. You do not have to resettle them in your country.

[Liriena]

We do have a moral obligation to take on refugees. The only question is how many and what policies we pursue to integrate them until the war is over.

Can the "how many" be 1? One refugee to the USA, there we go, that's our *cough* moral obligation *cough* solved.

Never mind that those countries wouldn't lift a finger to help the west if we wanted to send them refugees, we're so morally obliged.

Oh? On top of a theologian, you are also a psychic?

[Dameth]

No we don't! Do you think for a minute that if France was engulfed in a civil war that Syria would take in a single refugee? Also, what happens when the civil war is over, do we just tell them to go back?! What if they refuse!?

France is fine with refugees. We have a big problem with migrants in Calais, but that's a whole other issue and the culprit is the bilateral accords anyway.