UK Politics IV: Disraeli Gears

[United Kingdom of Kent]

Is one day of not very significant loses enough to undo the steady growth of the last few weeks?

Given that one upswing apparently proves that there will be no long term economic consequences...

Well it's not been one singular upswing but a steady recovery up to this point, if the upswing were a dramatic few day affair I'd agree, but this has been weeks, nearly a month in the making.

[Ostroeuropa]

You can't really discuss long term economic consequences using abstracts, as people can't visualize it and there's too many factors in play.

The remain campaign fucked up by not doing something simple and easy to digest. I would have grabbed a pizza box from tesco and said;

"This costs 1.79. Here is how it is made."

And gone to all the various countries the ingrediants come from and such.

Then done a comparison with food made from multiple sources outside the EU and how much more difficult it is and how much more costly.

Abstracts don't sell well to the masses.

The problem is, however, that the overwhelming majority of brexiters explicitly said in a poll that they dont give a fuck about the economy, which highly suggests this was an immigration vote.

At that point, i'd have campaigned on a platform of cutting all outside the EU migration down to 10,000 (Which cameron said he'd do, but didn't, in a move of startling arrogance and massively misjudging the mood of the country.), but keeping inter-EU migration.

I'd also have pointed out that europeans are culturally similar to us compared to other foreigners.

[Great Nepal]

Because fuck all the evidence that says migrants as a collective are net benefit to the British economy, especially when contrasted with native population as a collective - we've got xenophobes to pacify!

[Alvecia]

Because fuck all the evidence that says migrants as a collective are net benefit to the British economy, especially when contrasted with native population as a collective - we've got xenophobes to pacify!

Evidence? In my politics?
It's less likely than you'd think.

[United Kingdom of Kent]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36852805

Rather concerning, not entirely sure what the likelihood of him winning the election is but perhaps us European members of NATO should begin to be somewhat concerned. Do you think talk such as this may influence defence sending and purchases?

[Britanno 2]

Because fuck all the evidence that says migrants as a collective are net benefit to the British economy, especially when contrasted with native population as a collective - we've got xenophobes to pacify!

But surely it'd be worth it to keep us in the EU? From a pragmatic point of view, what would do more damage to the economy? Cutting non-EU migration or leaving the EU?

[The Nihilistic view]

Mocking religion isn't xenophobia.

xenophobia
[zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-]
noun
1.
an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

Why does one have to hate or fear something unreasonably to mock it?

[Imperializt Russia]

TIL Jeremy Corbyn was a genocide denier.

http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2004-05/392

A. Motherfucking. Genocide. Denier.

Did you fucking read it?

It was stating that the suspected numbers (given as 100,000-250,000) were hideously overinflated. Fewer than 9000 Albanian civilians were dead or missing, in a war that claimed 13,500 lives.

Additionally, I suspect that, of the points raised, the need for a cleanup of DU munitions (of which, many were used over Kosovo) would be why someone like Corbyn would be attracted to the bill.

[Imperializt Russia]

That's not on topic...

It's in relation to the nailing of bacon to the mosque in the UK, apparently a xenophobic act because it involves unreasonable hatred.

I disagree, unless it was targeted at Muslims rather than Islam.

The intention is quite clearly to upset and intimidate Muslims. Because Islam can't be made to feel bad because it is not a person.

This is an act done by people, to incite a reaction, from people, Ostro.

[Arkolon]

Given that one upswing apparently proves that there will be no long term economic consequences...

Well it's not been one singular upswing but a steady recovery up to this point, if the upswing were a dramatic few day affair I'd agree, but this has been weeks, nearly a month in the making.

Brexit hasn't happened yet, and it's being delayed at least 6 months. What's interesting is that the damage is lasting and not recovering: GBPUSD is still at insane lows (1.32), bond yields are still low, and share prices are hovering (usually below a June 23 peak). That means that, even though no material conditions have changed since June 23 - for businesses and people alike, so far, material conditions are just as good as if we had voted Remain - investors are still not willing to buy British assets and those that do are too fearful of those investments, willing to keep them in safe bonds rather than private equity.

[Ostroeuropa]

Because fuck all the evidence that says migrants as a collective are net benefit to the British economy, especially when contrasted with native population as a collective - we've got xenophobes to pacify!

They also depress wages, which leads to the natives being hesitant to work in the first place.
Low wages certainly aren't a benefit to the economy.

Without controlling for how wages would rise, you can't honestly say migrants are a benefit. Merely that they're more willing to work for slavemasters, and thus, cause the country to shift towards a more classist system.

This, in combination with the classist contempt the media and our elites have pushed that migrants "work harder" and such is a big reason for the anti-migrant backlash.

[Great Nepal]

Because fuck all the evidence that says migrants as a collective are net benefit to the British economy, especially when contrasted with native population as a collective - we've got xenophobes to pacify!

But surely it'd be worth it to keep us in the EU? From a pragmatic point of view, what would do more damage to the economy? Cutting non-EU migration or leaving the EU?

Probably the latter depending on the subsequent deal; but its not really an either/or choice; we could have, and we still can go with none of the above - Cameron could have not given a referendum (he was retiring anyways), 16-18 year old could've been given the vote, super majority rules could have been put in place (UK only leaves if majority of people and majority of kingdoms vote to leave), and even still UK could remain member of EEA with all that it entails including free movement of people and actual diktats wrt regulations, and be fine overall. We don't need to choose which arm to cut off; only reason we'd institute quota on non-EU migrants to 'tens of thousands' is to pacify xenophobes.

[Imperializt Russia]

Because fuck all the evidence that says migrants as a collective are net benefit to the British economy, especially when contrasted with native population as a collective - we've got xenophobes to pacify!

They also depress wages, which leads to the natives being hesitant to work in the first place.
Low wages certainly aren't a benefit to the economy.

Without controlling for how wages would rise, you can't honestly say migrants are a benefit. Merely that they're more willing to work for slavemasters, and thus, cause the country to shift towards a more classist system.

This, in combination with the classist contempt the media and our elites have pushed that migrants "work harder" and such is a big reason for the anti-migrant backlash.

Please explain to me, because I'm genuinely interested to hear it as I just don't understand, how migrants can depress wages when there is a minimum wage.

[Ostroeuropa]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36852805

Rather concerning, not entirely sure what the likelihood of him winning the election is but perhaps us European members of NATO should begin to be somewhat concerned. Do you think talk such as this may influence defence sending and purchases?

The UK fulfills its NATO obligations. I actually support Trumps policy here. If a NATO country doesn't pay its 2% defense budget rate, doesn't also come to the aid of other NATO allies, etc, then they shouldn't be automatically protected.

[Ostroeuropa]

They also depress wages, which leads to the natives being hesitant to work in the first place.
Low wages certainly aren't a benefit to the economy.

Without controlling for how wages would rise, you can't honestly say migrants are a benefit. Merely that they're more willing to work for slavemasters, and thus, cause the country to shift towards a more classist system.

This, in combination with the classist contempt the media and our elites have pushed that migrants "work harder" and such is a big reason for the anti-migrant backlash.

Please explain to me, because I'm genuinely interested to hear it as I just don't understand, how migrants can depress wages when there is a minimum wage.

They depress wages to the minimum, and sometimes below that off the books. My local fair, for instance, is notorious for hiring poles and paying them a pittance. Minimum wage isn't particularly good.

[Great Nepal]

Because fuck all the evidence that says migrants as a collective are net benefit to the British economy, especially when contrasted with native population as a collective - we've got xenophobes to pacify!

They also depress wages, which leads to the natives being hesitant to work in the first place.
Low wages certainly aren't a benefit to the economy.

Without controlling for how wages would rise, you can't honestly say migrants are a benefit. Merely that they're more willing to work for slavemasters, and thus, cause the country to shift towards a more classist system.

This, in combination with the classist contempt the media and our elites have pushed that migrants "work harder" and such is a big reason for the anti-migrant backlash.

1. Migrants only suppress wages as far as permitted by the national government with regards to minimum wage legislation and enforcement or to the point where it should fairly rest. If migrants are actually causing people to not get jobs because they're working at unreasonably low prices, government has within its powers to increase the minimum wage and enforcement of thereof without limiting migrants. There are no 'slavemasters', there are voluntary agreements between employers and employees wrt employee's time operating within framework of the national government - if wages are too low that is because government is permitting it to be too low.
2. It was areas with more migrants as percentage of population who voted to remain, there is actually quite a nice correlation - you'd imagine people who were undercut by migrants to be in areas with significant migrant population.

[The Nihilistic view]

You can't really discuss long term economic consequences using abstracts, as people can't visualize it and there's too many factors in play.

The remain campaign fucked up by not doing something simple and easy to digest. I would have grabbed a pizza box from tesco and said;

"This costs 1.79. Here is how it is made."

And gone to all the various countries the ingrediants come from and such.

Then done a comparison with food made from multiple sources outside the EU and how much more difficult it is and how much more costly.

Abstracts don't sell well to the masses.

The problem is, however, that the overwhelming majority of brexiters explicitly said in a poll that they dont give a fuck about the economy, which highly suggests this was an immigration vote.

At that point, i'd have campaigned on a platform of cutting all outside the EU migration down to 10,000 (Which cameron said he'd do, but didn't, in a move of startling arrogance and massively misjudging the mood of the country.), but keeping inter-EU migration.

I'd also have pointed out that europeans are culturally similar to us compared to other foreigners.

I think there was a poll the day after that said sovereignty/democracy was the main reason for voting leave for 49% and immigration 33% as the two main reasons. Obviously one or the other would be quite often the second reason. 6% said economy. So yeah their whole strategy was wrong here focusing on grand economic ideas when most people voting leave did not care about it much.

[The Nihilistic view]

We need a new tagline now. "It's not the economy stupid."

[Imperializt Russia]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36852805

Rather concerning, not entirely sure what the likelihood of him winning the election is but perhaps us European members of NATO should begin to be somewhat concerned. Do you think talk such as this may influence defence sending and purchases?

And people ask why I don't believe in the US nuclear umbrella

[Imperializt Russia]

Please explain to me, because I'm genuinely interested to hear it as I just don't understand, how migrants can depress wages when there is a minimum wage.

They depress wages to the minimum, and sometimes below that off the books. My local fair, for instance, is notorious for hiring poles and paying them a pittance. Minimum wage isn't particularly good.

This isn't something I have experienced.
At my factory, for example, there is obviously a large proportion of Europeans in the workforce (because no-one else wants to be there).

Realistically, I don't think that line of work would ever have risen above the minimum wage even if it was staffed solely with whitey.
A club near me pays below minimum wage, but cash in hand, and they're all "native".

[The Nihilistic view]

The miminum wage in my area stagnated wages for a decade. It was not until about 2008 that the minimum wage caught up with what the market rate had been in 1997. I am not sure what people expected, the minimum wage took wage setting power from the market and gave it to politicians influenced by big company lobbyists. The minimum wage has probably helped 5% of people and screwed over the other 95%. Now I suggest there are better ways of doing it, helping the 5% that don't also create a massive tax credit bill as well when the lobbied MPs set a rate lower than it would be otherwise. Combine that with a horde of cheap Labour leading to oversupply and you have a recipe for working class people in the UK to be royally fucked. Even Rose admitted this to a parliamentary committee, funny we never saw him during the referendum again.

[Wolfmanne2]

Just as 'fucking hilarious', no doubt, as tying bacon to a synagogue.

Yes. That is likewise hilarious. Problem is that our media and institutions are obsessed with preventing mockery of Islam, so the jokes have to be done by "grafitti" of sorts rather than in person.


Zombie Jesus is also funny.

My sense of humour pushes a lot of boundaries, but this is beyond messed up.

[Elepis]

well maybe it is not the migrants fault then. Maybe it is the companies who pay the wages, if they paid more to their workers as a whole, then there would be no undercutting

[Ifreann]

The UK fulfills its NATO obligations. I actually support Trumps policy here. If a NATO country doesn't pay its 2% defense budget rate, doesn't also come to the aid of other NATO allies, etc, then they shouldn't be automatically protected.

well maybe it is not the migrants fault then. Maybe it is the companies who pay the wages, if they paid more to their workers as a whole, then there would be no undercutting

But people feel like it's the immigrants, so the government has to kick out some immigrants so people feel better.

[Val Halla]

LibDems say they will block the raising ot tuition fees.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36856026

They should actually do something this time.