UK Politics IV: Disraeli Gears

[Vassenor]

You think hatred of religion is unreasonable? I don't. Nor do many people.

That's not on topic...

But I described hating Islam as a bad thing and need to be publicly shamed for it.

[Ostroeuropa]

You think hatred of religion is unreasonable? I don't. Nor do many people.

That's not on topic...

It's in relation to the nailing of bacon to the mosque in the UK, apparently a xenophobic act because it involves unreasonable hatred.

I disagree, unless it was targeted at Muslims rather than Islam.

You think hatred of religion is unreasonable? I don't. Nor do many people.

Blanket hatred of religion is unreasonable in the extreme.

I disagree. One can very much dislike or even hate ideologies and sets of ideologies, and most people do. If you begin to set upon the adherents it becomes different.

The piss-christ is not pissing on christians.

To bring this more firmly back into UK discussion, our national narrative about Islam often conflates these two things, to such an extent that it has resulted in a chilling effect on our culture and in our media when it comes to ripping on Islam and what a ridiculous set of claims it is.

Partially also related to people not knowing what the fuck Islam actually is, ala Joseph Smiths south park episode and everyones "THATS mormonism!?" reaction.

Nailing bacon to a mosque is funny. It should be applauded and shown up as a comedic criticism of Islam, rather than demonized to the same extent as actual hate crimes against adherents of Islam, which is what we currently do.

By calling it xenophobic and labeling it a hate crime, you bolster the image of Islamic hypersensitivity and our institutions defense and advocacy of islam against the populace, which leads to actual hate crimes when they begin to seem like an occupying force.

[Olivaero]

That's not on topic...

It's in relation to the nailing of bacon to the mosque in the UK, apparently a xenophobic act because it involves unreasonable hatred.

I disagree, unless it was targeted at Muslims rather than Islam.

Blanket hatred of religion is unreasonable in the extreme.

I disagree. One can very much dislike or even hate ideologies and sets of ideologies, and most people do. If you begin to set upon the adherents it becomes different.

The piss-christ is not pissing on christians.

To bring this more firmly back into UK discussion, our national narrative about Islam often conflates these two things, to such an extent that it has resulted in a chilling effect on our culture and in our media when it comes to ripping on Islam and what a ridiculous set of claims it is.

Partially also related to people not knowing what the fuck Islam actually is, ala Joseph Smiths south park episode and everyones "THATS mormonism!?" reaction.

Nailing bacon to a mosque is funny. It should be applauded and shown up as a comedic criticism of Islam, rather than demonized to the same extent as actual hate crimes against adherents of Islam, which is what we currently do.

I don't see how the random act of nailing bacon to a mosque could possibly be a criticism of islam. It doesn't say anything other than "your not wanted here and we're gonna make you uncomfortable".

[The Archregimancy]

Just as 'fucking hilarious', no doubt, as tying bacon to a synagogue.

Yes. That is likewise hilarious. Problem is that our media and institutions are obsessed with preventing mockery of Islam, so the jokes have to be done by "grafitti" of sorts rather than in person.

I think this is the single most depressing post I've ever read in NSG; and given what I have to slog through in my moderator capacity, it's had some serious competition.

It's not, for the record, the bit about 'preventing mockery of Islam', where a reasoned argument might be made; it's the open statement that desecrating houses of worship in the United Kingdom is a perfectly acceptable response to a perceived media and institutional obsession with that prevention of mockery.

I would gently suggest that it's entirely possible to actively and cogently mock any and all religious beliefs without doing something so inflammatory as smearing pig fat over mosques and synagogues, and that I would despair for a society that would consider desecrating houses of worship as an acceptable form of mockery. But no doubt this would be an irrational response on my part to this insidious institutional protection of religion from any and all forms of mockery; so I won't bother.

[United Kingdom of Kent]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... stors/amp/

Not sure if this should be here or in the referendum thread, but I assume such discussion is all here now. Still early days ofcourse and in no way do I expect the United Kingdom not to see some sort of economic hit, however it's at least some promising news.
I'm no economist so if someone more educated in such a subject could explain why it may not be so it would be much appreciated.

[Alvecia]

It's in relation to the nailing of bacon to the mosque in the UK, apparently a xenophobic act because it involves unreasonable hatred.

I disagree, unless it was targeted at Muslims rather than Islam.



I disagree. One can very much dislike or even hate ideologies and sets of ideologies, and most people do. If you begin to set upon the adherents it becomes different.

The piss-christ is not pissing on christians.

To bring this more firmly back into UK discussion, our national narrative about Islam often conflates these two things, to such an extent that it has resulted in a chilling effect on our culture and in our media when it comes to ripping on Islam and what a ridiculous set of claims it is.

Partially also related to people not knowing what the fuck Islam actually is, ala Joseph Smiths south park episode and everyones "THATS mormonism!?" reaction.

Nailing bacon to a mosque is funny. It should be applauded and shown up as a comedic criticism of Islam, rather than demonized to the same extent as actual hate crimes against adherents of Islam, which is what we currently do.

I don't see how the random act of nailing bacon to a mosque could possibly be a criticism of islam. It doesn't say anything other than "your not wanted here and we're gonna make you uncomfortable".

It's also a waste of good bacon.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's in relation to the nailing of bacon to the mosque in the UK, apparently a xenophobic act because it involves unreasonable hatred.

I disagree, unless it was targeted at Muslims rather than Islam.



I disagree. One can very much dislike or even hate ideologies and sets of ideologies, and most people do. If you begin to set upon the adherents it becomes different.

The piss-christ is not pissing on christians.

To bring this more firmly back into UK discussion, our national narrative about Islam often conflates these two things, to such an extent that it has resulted in a chilling effect on our culture and in our media when it comes to ripping on Islam and what a ridiculous set of claims it is.

Partially also related to people not knowing what the fuck Islam actually is, ala Joseph Smiths south park episode and everyones "THATS mormonism!?" reaction.

Nailing bacon to a mosque is funny. It should be applauded and shown up as a comedic criticism of Islam, rather than demonized to the same extent as actual hate crimes against adherents of Islam, which is what we currently do.

I don't see how the random act of nailing bacon to a mosque could possibly be a criticism of islam. It doesn't say anything other than "your not wanted here and we're gonna make you uncomfortable".

I see at as mocking the prohibition on pork products. That's the thing with art. Multiple interpretations.

[Olivaero]

I don't see how the random act of nailing bacon to a mosque could possibly be a criticism of islam. It doesn't say anything other than "your not wanted here and we're gonna make you uncomfortable".

I see at as mocking the prohibition on pork products.

Yeah no shit, something thats entirely benign on it's own. It's only being mocked because it's one of their customs and that is the problem.

[Irona]

I don't see how the random act of nailing bacon to a mosque could possibly be a criticism of islam. It doesn't say anything other than "your not wanted here and we're gonna make you uncomfortable".

I see at as mocking the prohibition on pork products.

That wasn't what was intended though. Hate crimes have shot up, a Romanian shop was fire bombed near to where I usually hang out in the centre of Norwich and nobody seems to care. Obviously bacon on a mosque isn't anywhere near as bad as a firebombing, but it all adds up. Especially when minor acts like that seem to condone worse hate crimes.

[Ostroeuropa]

I see at as mocking the prohibition on pork products.

Yeah no shit, something thats entirely benign on it's own. It's only being mocked because it's one of their customs and that is the problem.

Why is that a problem? It's one of their customs, it's seen as a silly one, so it's mocked.

[Philjia]

I see at as mocking the prohibition on pork products.

Yeah no shit, something thats entirely benign on it's own. It's only being mocked because it's one of their customs and that is the problem.

Judaism has the same prohibition, would you do the same to a synagogue?

[Ostroeuropa]

I see at as mocking the prohibition on pork products.

That wasn't what was intended though. Hate crimes have shot up, a Romanian shop was fire bombed near to where I usually hang out in the centre of Norwich and nobody seems to care. Obviously bacon on a mosque isn't anywhere near as bad as a firebombing, but it all adds up. Especially when minor acts like that seem to condone worse hate crimes.

How do you know that isn't what was intended?
Even in the mind of an anti-arabic racist who conflates Muslims with Arabs, I think this would be a form of mockery. It's not a death threat.

At most, it's highlighting their status as not a member of the group the vandal belongs to by implication.

"Har har, silly pork-haters. Not like us."

I think it's probably done to upset and incite. Almost certainly it's trolling. But it isn't a hate crime. I doubt it's done with the level of criticism it should have been done motivating it, sure, but it's still a valid point to be made.

Hate crimes have shot up because of unrestrained immigration and the government refusing to take seriously the concerns of the natives, as well as media and education elites classist contempt for the working classes and their concerns.

[Olivaero]

Yeah no shit, something thats entirely benign on it's own. It's only being mocked because it's one of their customs and that is the problem.

Why is that a problem? It's one of their customs, it's seen as a silly one, so it's mocked.

There are plenty of people in our society who don't eat pork yet the Muslims not eating pork get some bacon nailed to their mosque. They were a target because they were Muslims not because the person thinks not eating pork is always silly.

[Ostroeuropa]

Why is that a problem? It's one of their customs, it's seen as a silly one, so it's mocked.

There are plenty of people in our society who don't eat pork yet the Muslims not eating pork get some bacon nailed to their mosque. They were a target because they were Muslims not because the person thinks not eating pork is always silly.

It's not that they don't eat pork.
It's that they believe the creator of the universe forbade them to eat pork and believe it to be a sin.
You'll note that vegetarians also get frequently mocked if they cloak their decision in moral grandstanding.

If you read watching the english, you'll find a passage on earnestness that sums it up pretty well.
If you take yourself seriously, you're going to be made fun of.

[Irona]

That wasn't what was intended though. Hate crimes have shot up, a Romanian shop was fire bombed near to where I usually hang out in the centre of Norwich and nobody seems to care. Obviously bacon on a mosque isn't anywhere near as bad as a firebombing, but it all adds up. Especially when minor acts like that seem to condone worse hate crimes.

How do you know that isn't what was intended?
Even in the mind of an anti-arabic racist who conflates Muslims with Arabs, I think this would be a form of mockery. It's not a death threat.

At most, it's highlighting their status as not a member of the group the vandal belongs to by implication.

"Har har, silly pork-haters. Not like us."

I think it's probably done to upset and incite. Almost certainly it's trolling. But it isn't a hate crime. I doubt it's done with the level of criticism it should have been done motivating it, sure, but it's still a valid point to be made.

Hate crimes have shot up because of unrestrained immigration and the government refusing to take seriously the concerns of the natives, as well as media and education elites classist contempt for the working classes and their concerns.

Hate crimes have shot up because of Brexit. There is a clear implication even from such a small act that 'we don't want you here' and when the same reason is being given for the more violent hate crimes that's got sinister connotations.

[Olivaero]

There are plenty of people in our society who don't eat pork yet the Muslims not eating pork get some bacon nailed to their mosque. They were a target because they were Muslims not because the person thinks not eating pork is always silly.

It's not that they don't eat pork.
It's that they believe the creator of the universe forbade them to eat pork and believe it to be a sin.
You'll note that vegetarians also get frequently mocked if they cloak their decision in moral grandstanding.

If you read watching the english, you'll find a passage on earnestness that sums it up pretty well.
If you take yourself seriously, you're going to be made fun of.

Yeah it was just a bit of harmless fun that has nothing to with the zeitgeist at all. I'm sorry but I can't believe you actually believe that there was no anti-muslim sentiment involved in this act.

[Alvecia]

How do you know that isn't what was intended?
Even in the mind of an anti-arabic racist who conflates Muslims with Arabs, I think this would be a form of mockery. It's not a death threat.

At most, it's highlighting their status as not a member of the group the vandal belongs to by implication.

"Har har, silly pork-haters. Not like us."

I think it's probably done to upset and incite. Almost certainly it's trolling. But it isn't a hate crime. I doubt it's done with the level of criticism it should have been done motivating it, sure, but it's still a valid point to be made.

Hate crimes have shot up because of unrestrained immigration and the government refusing to take seriously the concerns of the natives, as well as media and education elites classist contempt for the working classes and their concerns.

Hate crimes have shot up because of Brexit. There is a clear implication even from such a small act that 'we don't want you here' and when the same reason is being given for the more violent hate crimes that's got sinister connotations.

On this subject, I can't remember who it was, but someone said that a likely cause of an increase in violent hate crimes in the UK following the Brexit decision is that the existing racist now beleive that they have more than half the country agreeing with them and supporting their actions.

[Alvecia]

Double post.

[Great Nepal]

That wasn't what was intended though. Hate crimes have shot up, a Romanian shop was fire bombed near to where I usually hang out in the centre of Norwich and nobody seems to care. Obviously bacon on a mosque isn't anywhere near as bad as a firebombing, but it all adds up. Especially when minor acts like that seem to condone worse hate crimes.

How do you know that isn't what was intended?
Even in the mind of an anti-arabic racist who conflates Muslims with Arabs, I think this would be a form of mockery. It's not a death threat.

At most, it's highlighting their status as not a member of the group the vandal belongs to by implication.

"Har har, silly pork-haters. Not like us."

I think it's probably done to upset and incite. Almost certainly it's trolling. But it isn't a hate crime. I doubt it's done with the level of criticism it should have been done motivating it, sure, but it's still a valid point to be made.

It isn't a criticism though and certainly not a valid point made, it is a criminal act against a minority, because they abide by different set of customs and believes - personally I disagree with labeling anything as hate crime (crimes which fulfill mens rea are equal crimes regardless of underlying intent), but to claim nailing bacon to a mosque (or any other place) is a 'criticism' is just silly - you want to criticize avoidance of pork, give a speech, write an article, or do million and one things covered by freedom of speech, you want to claim someone avoiding pork is hilarious write a joke, draw a comic, or make a funny video - all of these firstly give people who don't care for your opinion an out, and perhaps more importantly allows people to criticize your criticism.

[Ostroeuropa]

How do you know that isn't what was intended?
Even in the mind of an anti-arabic racist who conflates Muslims with Arabs, I think this would be a form of mockery. It's not a death threat.

At most, it's highlighting their status as not a member of the group the vandal belongs to by implication.

"Har har, silly pork-haters. Not like us."

I think it's probably done to upset and incite. Almost certainly it's trolling. But it isn't a hate crime. I doubt it's done with the level of criticism it should have been done motivating it, sure, but it's still a valid point to be made.

Hate crimes have shot up because of unrestrained immigration and the government refusing to take seriously the concerns of the natives, as well as media and education elites classist contempt for the working classes and their concerns.

Hate crimes have shot up because of Brexit. There is a clear implication even from such a small act that 'we don't want you here' and when the same reason is being given for the more violent hate crimes that's got sinister connotations.

It wouldn't have reached this stage if the government, media, and education elites had taken people seriously about their concerns. They instead refused to do so and showered them with contempt. As a result, when people realized it was a majority, some have gone out to take matters into their own hands, and a larger portion have decided they don't care.

Our elites seem to have forgotten that democracy prevents violence.
A policy has been forced on the natives for decades against their will. This is a consequence of that.
You should blame the government who allowed these immigrants to come here against the will of the natives. That was never going to be safe for them.

Yes, the people do not want them here. They havnt wanted them here for decades. But they are here anyway. What did you expect would happen? You can't colonize someones country and not have backlash.

While it's obviously bad news and should be condemned, it should be recognized for what it is, and what caused it. Cracking down harder on hate crimes and hate speech without addressing these concerns will merely pent up the pressure again until we have pogroms or race riots.

The current spike in violence is tame compared to what could have happened, and that's a result of Brexit winning too.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's not that they don't eat pork.
It's that they believe the creator of the universe forbade them to eat pork and believe it to be a sin.
You'll note that vegetarians also get frequently mocked if they cloak their decision in moral grandstanding.

If you read watching the english, you'll find a passage on earnestness that sums it up pretty well.
If you take yourself seriously, you're going to be made fun of.

Yeah it was just a bit of harmless fun that has nothing to with the zeitgeist at all. I'm sorry but I can't believe you actually believe that there was no anti-muslim sentiment involved in this act.

Irrespective of whether there was or not, it would better serve our society to take this as a prompt to discuss how mockery and Islam should interact rather than as further evidence of hatred of muslims and why we need to crack down on anti-muslim sentiment.

The former contains the eventual possibility of integration or deconversion, while the latter will result in more of the same and I suspect, eventual crimes against humanity one way or another.

[Vassenor]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/20/ftse-100-smashes-6700-but-pound-flounders-below-131-as-investors/amp/

Not sure if this should be here or in the referendum thread, but I assume such discussion is all here now. Still early days ofcourse and in no way do I expect the United Kingdom not to see some sort of economic hit, however it's at least some promising news.
I'm no economist so if someone more educated in such a subject could explain why it may not be so it would be much appreciated.

The FTSE 100 has dropped 27 points since it opened today. The 250 has dropped 78 points, and the All Share 15.

[Vassenor]

doubles

[United Kingdom of Kent]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/20/ftse-100-smashes-6700-but-pound-flounders-below-131-as-investors/amp/

Not sure if this should be here or in the referendum thread, but I assume such discussion is all here now. Still early days ofcourse and in no way do I expect the United Kingdom not to see some sort of economic hit, however it's at least some promising news.
I'm no economist so if someone more educated in such a subject could explain why it may not be so it would be much appreciated.

The FTSE 100 has dropped 27 points since it opened today. The 250 has dropped 78 points, and the All Share 15.

Is one day of not very significant loses enough to undo the steady growth of the last few weeks? Edit: recovery is probably a better word.

[Vassenor]

The FTSE 100 has dropped 27 points since it opened today. The 250 has dropped 78 points, and the All Share 15.

Is one day of not very significant loses enough to undo the steady growth of the last few weeks?

Given that one upswing apparently proves that there will be no long term economic consequences...