UK Politics IV: Disraeli Gears

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I see the disrespecting of a flag as a direct insult to the people who died under said flag.

Okay?

The bolded letters, you asked why it matters if flags are disrespected.
That's my answer.

[Lamadia III]

It means taking pride in the fact that we live in a country where you can criticise said country.
And quite frankly, I am finding your rhetoric quite shocking. You need to learn a bit of respect for our flag, I think, and certainly for the US flag- and those who have fought and died for it.

but by that very fact you are being discouraged from ctirisising the country because the country is being seen as inviolable.
Good, be shocked by it. I am shocked by your devotion to a piece of cloth and a lump of dirt. As I have said it strikes me as horrifyingly parochial

You can try to see yourself as above patriotism, as a form of a new, intellectual elite, Elepsis, but nobody else will buy it.
Most of us show pride in our country, and what it has achieved. Your rhetoric is very offensive to those who have died defending us from tyranny, and quite frankly this should disqualify you from holding any weight in any debate, although I doubt it will deter you. And just in order to put you straight, teaching pride in your country is very different to teaching it is untouchable- if you don't know this, again, you are not qualified in terms of intelligence to speak on the subject.

[Elepis]

except the freedom to go against the nation because you are expected to love it

No. Taking pride in ones nation doesn't prescribe what you've said, you can criticise a your nation whilst also being proud of it.

so you are not allowed to not be proud of it then?

[Minzerland II]

Why don't they have honour? Your answer is less than adequate.

because they aren't things, they are just concepts drawn up in the 18th and 19th centuries

So, you sully the Government instead?

[Elepis]

but by that very fact you are being discouraged from ctirisising the country because the country is being seen as inviolable.
Good, be shocked by it. I am shocked by your devotion to a piece of cloth and a lump of dirt. As I have said it strikes me as horrifyingly parochial

You can try to see yourself as above patriotism, as a form of a new, intellectual elite, Elepsis, but nobody else will buy it.
Most of us show pride in our country, and what it has achieved. Your rhetoric is very offensive to those who have died defending us from tyranny, and quite frankly this should disqualify you from holding any weight in any debate, although I doubt it will deter you. And just in order to put you straight, teaching pride in your country is very different to teaching it is untouchable- if you don't know this, again, you are not qualified in terms of intelligence to speak on the subject.

Teaching pride in the country is also teaching that you can never not be proud of country no matter what they do though?

And I see taking more pride in what this country has achieved instead of taking pride in what humanity has achieved as narrow minded. Why are the achievements of the people of this country (not the country itself) better than the achievements of the people of any other country?

[Elepis]

because they aren't things, they are just concepts drawn up in the 18th and 19th centuries

So, you sully the Government instead?

what?

[Minzerland II]

No. Taking pride in ones nation doesn't prescribe what you've said, you can criticise a your nation whilst also being proud of it.

so you are not allowed to not be proud of it then?

Y'know what, we better stop this discussion, not only because this has nothing to do with UK politics therefore a threadjack but also because you aren't interested in discussion.

[Lamadia III]

You can try to see yourself as above patriotism, as a form of a new, intellectual elite, Elepsis, but nobody else will buy it.
Most of us show pride in our country, and what it has achieved. Your rhetoric is very offensive to those who have died defending us from tyranny, and quite frankly this should disqualify you from holding any weight in any debate, although I doubt it will deter you. And just in order to put you straight, teaching pride in your country is very different to teaching it is untouchable- if you don't know this, again, you are not qualified in terms of intelligence to speak on the subject.

Teaching pride in the country is also teaching that you can never not be proud of country no matter what they do though?

And I see taking more pride in what this country has achieved instead of taking pride in what humanity has achieved as narrow minded. Why are the achievements of the people of this country (not the country itself) better than the achievements of the people of any other country?

You know very little about freedom. No doubt, really, because you are on the Left.
Do me a little favour, and do some research before you enter this discussion. In particular on the subject of 'a country'. I am sure you will be surprised by what you find! Usually they teach these things in primary school, but I understand that people can fall through the gaps and miss some facts. Have a go, and we'll bet back to you!

[FelrikTheDeleted]

No. Taking pride in ones nation doesn't prescribe what you've said, you can criticise a your nation whilst also being proud of it.

so you are not allowed to not be proud of it then?

You can be proud of your nation without seeing it as invaunrable, your thinking of nationalism, the step above patriotism, the point where you can't see the anything wrong with your country, we are talking about patriotism, where we love our nation but criticise it when it's wrong.

[Lamadia III]

so you are not allowed to not be proud of it then?

You can be proud of your nation without seeing it as invaunrable, your thinking of nationalism, the step above patriotism, the point where you can't see the anything wrong with your country, we are talking about patriotism, where we love our nation but criticise it when it's wrong.

Absolutely this.
Not too hard to understand, Elepis!

[Elepis]

Teaching pride in the country is also teaching that you can never not be proud of country no matter what they do though?

And I see taking more pride in what this country has achieved instead of taking pride in what humanity has achieved as narrow minded. Why are the achievements of the people of this country (not the country itself) better than the achievements of the people of any other country?

You know very little about freedom. No doubt, really, because you are on the Left.
Do me a little favour, and do some research before you enter this discussion. In particular on the subject of 'a country'. I am sure you will be surprised by what you find! Usually they teach these things in primary school, but I understand that people can fall through the gaps and miss some facts. Have a go, and we'll bet back to you!

what do you want me to know about a "country" oh wise prophet?

[Elepis]

You can be proud of your nation without seeing it as invaunrable, your thinking of nationalism, the step above patriotism, the point where you can't see the anything wrong with your country, we are talking about patriotism, where we love our nation but criticise it when it's wrong.

Absolutely this.
Not too hard to understand, Elepis!

But you are also saying you can never not be proud of a country thus taking away personal freedom, Lamadia!

[Lamadia III]

Absolutely this.
Not too hard to understand, Elepis!

But you are also saying you can never not be proud of a country thus taking away personal freedom, Lamadia!

Oh, so you missed out on English, too! Oh dear!
No, Elepis. Being proud of what your country has achieved does not mean that you can't criticise its bad points; you can have pride in the fact that you are allowed to criticise it. The actions of your Government does not mean that you can't be proud of your country. As I say, it is something to be proud of that you can criticise the state.

[Irona]

But you are also saying you can never not be proud of a country thus taking away personal freedom, Lamadia!

Oh, so you missed out on English, too! Oh dear!
No, Elepis. Being proud of what your country has achieved does not mean that you can't criticise its bad points; you can have pride in the fact that you are allowed to criticise it. The actions of your Government does not mean that you can't be proud of your country. As I say, it is something to be proud of that you can criticise the state.

So you have to be proud of it's past? Because I sure as hell aren't proud of ours

[Lamadia III]

Oh, so you missed out on English, too! Oh dear!
No, Elepis. Being proud of what your country has achieved does not mean that you can't criticise its bad points; you can have pride in the fact that you are allowed to criticise it. The actions of your Government does not mean that you can't be proud of your country. As I say, it is something to be proud of that you can criticise the state.

So you have to be proud of it's past? Because I sure as hell aren't proud of ours

I actually just said the opposite, Irona.
Are you going to tell me that we shouldn't be proud of our country, either? Because I am beginning to realise it is a Labour-thing.

[Elepis]

But you are also saying you can never not be proud of a country thus taking away personal freedom, Lamadia!

Oh, so you missed out on English, too! Oh dear!
No, Elepis. Being proud of what your country has achieved does not mean that you can't criticise its bad points; you can have pride in the fact that you are allowed to criticise it. The actions of your Government does not mean that you can't be proud of your country. As I say, it is something to be proud of that you can criticise the state.

but you are also saying you can never not be proud of your country. You can criticize it yes, but you still have to be proud of it, which goes against the whole freedom thing

[Irona]

So you have to be proud of it's past? Because I sure as hell aren't proud of ours

I actually just said the opposite, Irona.
Are you going to tell me that we shouldn't be proud of our country, either? Because I am beginning to realise it is a Labour-thing.

The right looks to the past, the left looks to the future

I'm not a patriot, but there are many thing's I am proud of this country for. That said there are so many things that I'm so very not proud of.
There is nothing wrong with not being proud in your country, and you trying to force people to be proud of theirs while claiming to be the defender of free speech is incredibly ironic.

[HMS Vanguard]

Because if you send all your money to China they will leave you to die in a ditch. If you send all your money to the British government, the British will not let you die in a ditch.

Patriotism makes sense because it is ultimately self-promoting, but the best thing for yourself and your country in the long run isn't always the best thing for yourself in the short run in every specific situation, so an emotional sense of duty to make you act patriotically anyway is useful for everyone.

There is social pressure to be patriotic because people who are not patriotic in otherwise patriotic societies are free-riders, getting the benefits of a cohesive society without paying any of the costs.

How does patriotsim make sense though, disqualifying the fact Britain is more free than Iran but less free than other countries, how can it ever make sense that I should feel more pride in this country than in any other country? Why is this country automatically Superior to anyother regardless of what those other countries are like?

For the same reason that it is in my interest to be loyal to my mother and her to me even though she is not the best mother in the world and I am not the best son in the world.

People who aren't patriotic still pay taxes you know.

Because they are threatened with punishment if they don't. They are forced to act in a patriotic way.

[Lamadia III]

I actually just said the opposite, Irona.
Are you going to tell me that we shouldn't be proud of our country, either? Because I am beginning to realise it is a Labour-thing.

The right looks to the past, the left looks to the future

I'm not a patriot, but there are many thing's I am proud of this country for. That said there are so many things that I'm so very not proud of.
There is nothing wrong with not being proud in your country, and you trying to force people to be proud of theirs while claiming to be the defender of free speech is incredibly ironic.

The only irony here, is your apparent wish to force left wing politics in this country which makes everyday people see the state as a cow to be milked, whilst not being proud of our achievements.
Worse than irony, it is hypocritical. I am aware that Mr. Corbyn neglected to sing the national anthem one occasion, needless to say I am sure some Labour members at least will show respect & gratitude to the UK, rather than just demand things from it as many on the Left seem to do.

[Irona]

How does patriotsim make sense though, disqualifying the fact Britain is more free than Iran but less free than other countries, how can it ever make sense that I should feel more pride in this country than in any other country? Why is this country automatically Superior to anyother regardless of what those other countries are like?

For the same reason that it is in my interest to be loyal to my mother and her to me even though she is not the best mother in the world and I am not the best son in the world.

People who aren't patriotic still pay taxes you know.

Because they are threatened with punishment if they don't. They are forced to act in a patriotic way.

Aren't you against taxation?

[Mad hatters in jeans]

Feel free not to answer this if it makes you feel uncomfortable for those it applies to.

The reason I am curious is two fold. First I suspended my studies at one point for depression and anxiety for about 2 years in the end before carrying on to finish. My experiance is unis are total shite at dealing with or even often noticing when people have problems affecting studies. So we're your institutions crap at dealing with it? The second point is if so what if anything could be a solution?

I found the system at my uni was basically set up for the student to come to the uni. Yet I know in my case and it seems painfully obvious from what IR has said that when suffering from this sort of thing that is one of the last things a student wants to do. IR you said you did not even want to check your email IIRC a little while ago, I know that feeling well in the year that things went tits up for me.

Generally the point is people that are clearly capable slipping through the net and thus not achieving what they can or in the time period that they should.

I went through a similar experience but I never went back after dropping out. And yeah they're pretty bad at noticing people who are dealing with problems, I was studying mental health and counseling so it's not like they had an excuse :-P.

The right looks to the past, the left looks to the future

I'm not a patriot, but there are many thing's I am proud of this country for. That said there are so many things that I'm so very not proud of.
There is nothing wrong with not being proud in your country, and you trying to force people to be proud of theirs while claiming to be the defender of free speech is incredibly ironic.

The only irony here, is your apparent wish to force left wing politics in this country which makes everyday people see the state as a cow to be milked, whilst not being proud of our achievements.
Worse than irony, it is hypocritical. I am aware that Mr. Corbyn neglected to sing the national anthem one occasion, needless to say I am sure some Labour members at least will show respect & gratitude to the UK, rather than just demand things from it as many on the Left seem to do.

On the contrary one of the things the left in the UK are most proud of is our welfare and NHS something the right wing don't seem to understand and keep trying to undermine.

It's necessary for the function of the country and attempting to dismantle it is the same as cutting off your arm because you want your blood flow to be more efficient.

[Lamadia III]

On the contrary one of the things the left in the UK are most proud of is our welfare and NHS something the right wing don't seem to understand and keep trying to undermine.yuxsw2

Oh, what a surprise; you are the most proud of the things which give you free stuff! How very moral of you!

The right looks to the past, the left looks to the future

Oh, what nonsense. The Left for the most part cries about keeping the NHS, free education, billions of pounds in welfare payouts, nationalised industries, subsidised sectors and so on. Now tell me, does the world look like its going in that direction? No. Does the Right for the most part support all of these things? No. Therefore, who is looking forward? The Right. Who is looking back to the 1970s with a suspicious grin on their face? The Left.
I put that as simply as I could.

[HMS Vanguard]

For the same reason that it is in my interest to be loyal to my mother and her to me even though she is not the best mother in the world and I am not the best son in the world.


Because they are threatened with punishment if they don't. They are forced to act in a patriotic way.

Aren't you against taxation?

Yes.

[The Intergalactic Universe Corporation]

I am not from Britain nor do I live there, but from an outsider's point of view, I think all Brits must be proud of their nation for it is the greatest in the world, and has left the deepest impression on the developed world.

Look at English, it is one of the most commonly spoken languages in the world, and is the primary language in Business. That is something all British should be very proud of, their national language being accepted and adopted by the rest of the world.

Look at modern industry. It all comes from the British, the Industrial Revolution began in Britain and it has brought us modern industry and higher living standards. All British people should be proud of this too.

[Wolfmanne2]

Here is the lovely person who today launched Labour's digital manifesto.