UK Politics IV: Disraeli Gears

[Ostroeuropa]

If you think all cultures are equal, you should have no objection to closing the borders then. It's just as valid as keeping them open. Your ideology is internally inconsistent.

No it isn't, by closing the borders we would be saying "'British' culture is better and we don't want nay others 'polluting' it"

But that is, in itself, a valid choice. Are you suggesting such a culture would be worse?
Gosh. Then it seems, as I said, your ideology is inherently completely incoherent and contradictory.

How about if tommorow, the UK up and decided that assaulting LGBT people and acquitting their attackers in court was part of our culture, would we be worse, or better?

I called multiculturalists Moral Nihilists for a reason you know.
The idea that cultures are equal is nihilistic. By being a multiculturalist who says cultures are equal, you are proclaiming yourself to be a complete vacuum of any morality or ethics. Or somebody who hasn't thought through the implication of your actions.

Is nazi germanies culture equal to ours?

1066 Englands?

Well.
Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.

[Vassenor]

Because The Sun reflects some-many of my own personal views; and, far more importantly to me, because it is the best-selling newspaper in the UK, and reflects the views of tens-of-millions of those living in this country.

About 2 million, in fact. A number which, you will note, is utterly dwarfed by the top online news sources.

And only in print. When you include online circulation the Mail beats it. The "tens of millions" idea comes from a study last year where the results from the 36,000 adult sample were generalised to indicate a 13.5million readership.

[Elepis]

No it isn't, by closing the borders we would be saying "'British' culture is better and we don't want nay others 'polluting' it"

But that is, in itself, a valid choice. Are you suggesting such a culture would be worse?
Gosh. Then it seems, as I said, your ideology is inherently completely incoherent and contradictory.

How about if tommorow, the UK up and decided that assaulting LGBT people and acquitting their attackers in court was part of our culture, would we be worse, or better?

That is not a culture though, no one has a culture of closing borders, That one be the decision of Mrs May and the Tory party, not 'British' Culture

That means the government are bigoted idiots, it has no bearing on all the people of the UK unless all the people (including all LGBTQ people) agreed to it. It has nothing to do with culture

[Ostroeuropa]

But that is, in itself, a valid choice. Are you suggesting such a culture would be worse?
Gosh. Then it seems, as I said, your ideology is inherently completely incoherent and contradictory.

How about if tommorow, the UK up and decided that assaulting LGBT people and acquitting their attackers in court was part of our culture, would we be worse, or better?

That is not a culture though, no one has a culture of closing borders, That one be the decision of Mrs May and the Tory party, not 'British' Culture

That means the government are bigoted idiots, it has no bearing on all the people of the UK unless all the people (including all LGBTQ people) agreed to it. It has nothing to do with culture

A sizable majority is sufficient to claim its a part of the culture.
Juries would be the ones to acquit.
You're wriggling to avoid confronting how ridiculous your idea of cultural equality is.

I called multiculturalists Moral Nihilists for a reason you know.
The idea that cultures are equal is nihilistic. By being a multiculturalist who says cultures are equal, you are proclaiming yourself to be a complete vacuum of any morality or ethics. Or somebody who hasn't thought through the implication of your actions.

Is nazi germanies culture equal to ours?

1066 Englands?

Well.
Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.

By saying cultures are equal, you are abdicating any moral or ethical judgement. Multiculturalism is, at its core, Nihilism.

[Vassenor]

This is starting to sound a lot like mental gymnastics.

[Ostroeuropa]

This is starting to sound a lot like mental gymnastics.

It seems pretty evident to me.
By refusing to say there is a meaningful metric by which to judge cultures, you are being a nihilist. By necessity, that's what it involves. You are rejecting any notion of morality or ethics in order to make that claim.

If that's not the case, then what meaningful metric do you offer?

It's my belief that certain cultures are morally superior to others.

[The Nihilistic view]

No it isn't, by closing the borders we would be saying "'British' culture is better and we don't want nay others 'polluting' it"

But that is, in itself, a valid choice. Are you suggesting such a culture would be worse?
Gosh. Then it seems, as I said, your ideology is inherently completely incoherent and contradictory.

How about if tommorow, the UK up and decided that assaulting LGBT people and acquitting their attackers in court was part of our culture, would we be worse, or better?

I called multiculturalists Moral Nihilists for a reason you know.
The idea that cultures are equal is nihilistic. By being a multiculturalist who says cultures are equal, you are proclaiming yourself to be a complete vacuum of any morality or ethics. Or somebody who hasn't thought through the implication of your actions.

Is nazi germanies culture equal to ours?

1066 Englands?

Well.
Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.

Hey, when have I ever expressed a love of multiculturalism.

[Elepis]

That is not a culture though, no one has a culture of closing borders, That one be the decision of Mrs May and the Tory party, not 'British' Culture

That means the government are bigoted idiots, it has no bearing on all the people of the UK unless all the people (including all LGBTQ people) agreed to it. It has nothing to do with culture

A sizable majority is sufficient to claim its a part of the culture.
Juries would be the ones to acquit.
You're wriggling to avoid confronting how ridiculous your idea of cultural equality is.

Not in my book, that would be an ideology not a culture, a culture has to be developed over hundreds of years. Not in a day. And even then I would not say all British people are evil or bad, just a few. Just because the Russian government has a bad record on gay rights does not mean A) all Russians are homophobes B) russia has a homophobic culture. There is just as good a chance your ideal Irishman is homophobic.

I called multiculturalists Moral Nihilists for a reason you know.
The idea that cultures are equal is nihilistic. By being a multiculturalist who says cultures are equal, you are proclaiming yourself to be a complete vacuum of any morality or ethics. Or somebody who hasn't thought through the implication of your actions.

Is nazi germanies culture equal to ours?

1066 Englands?

Well.
Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.

By saying cultures are equal, you are abdicating any moral or ethical judgement. Multiculturalism is, at its core, Nihilism.[/quote]

Nazism is not a culture, it is an ideology, there is a definable difference.

[Ostroeuropa]

But that is, in itself, a valid choice. Are you suggesting such a culture would be worse?
Gosh. Then it seems, as I said, your ideology is inherently completely incoherent and contradictory.

How about if tommorow, the UK up and decided that assaulting LGBT people and acquitting their attackers in court was part of our culture, would we be worse, or better?

I called multiculturalists Moral Nihilists for a reason you know.
The idea that cultures are equal is nihilistic. By being a multiculturalist who says cultures are equal, you are proclaiming yourself to be a complete vacuum of any morality or ethics. Or somebody who hasn't thought through the implication of your actions.

Is nazi germanies culture equal to ours?

1066 Englands?

Well.
Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.

Hey, when have I ever expressed a love of multiculturalism.

I'm pretty sure you aren't actually a nihilist except in a vague "I guess nihilism is philosophically true but society shouldn't be organized around its principles" way.

You may be a philosophical nihilist, but you aren't a political nihilist.

[Ostroeuropa]

A sizable majority is sufficient to claim its a part of the culture.
Juries would be the ones to acquit.
You're wriggling to avoid confronting how ridiculous your idea of cultural equality is.

Not in my book, that would be an ideology not a culture, a culture has to be developed over hundreds of years. Not in a day. And even then I would not say all British people are evil or bad, just a few. Just because the Russian government has a bad record on gay rights does not mean A) all Russians are homophobes B) russia has a homophobic culture. There is just as good a chance your ideal Irishman is homophobic.

I called multiculturalists Moral Nihilists for a reason you know.
The idea that cultures are equal is nihilistic. By being a multiculturalist who says cultures are equal, you are proclaiming yourself to be a complete vacuum of any morality or ethics. Or somebody who hasn't thought through the implication of your actions.

Is nazi germanies culture equal to ours?

1066 Englands?

Well.
Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.

By saying cultures are equal, you are abdicating any moral or ethical judgement. Multiculturalism is, at its core, Nihilism.

Nazism is not a culture, it is an ideology, there is a definable difference.[/quote]

I said the culture of nazi germany.
Ideologies are part of cultures.
Again, you're dancing around the issue rather than confront it.

For one thing, a big part of culture is:

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

[Elepis]

Not in my book, that would be an ideology not a culture, a culture has to be developed over hundreds of years. Not in a day. And even then I would not say all British people are evil or bad, just a few. Just because the Russian government has a bad record on gay rights does not mean A) all Russians are homophobes B) russia has a homophobic culture. There is just as good a chance your ideal Irishman is homophobic.



By saying cultures are equal, you are abdicating any moral or ethical judgement. Multiculturalism is, at its core, Nihilism.

Nazism is not a culture, it is an ideology, there is a definable difference.

I said the culture of nazi germany.
Ideologies are part of cultures.
Again, you're dancing around the issue rather than confront it.

For one thing, a big part of culture is:

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

[/quote]

Nazi Germnay did not have a culture, it had German culture and Nazi idoleogy, to different things.

You are just throwing words together in the hope they make sense

Besides, all this is different from what Lamadia was originally saying. She was saying i should have an unbreakable loyalty to Britain just for the very fact I was born here and nothing else, an idea I find parochial and petty. Which she has still not defended.

[Elepis]

Not in my book, that would be an ideology not a culture, a culture has to be developed over hundreds of years. Not in a day. And even then I would not say all British people are evil or bad, just a few. Just because the Russian government has a bad record on gay rights does not mean A) all Russians are homophobes B) russia has a homophobic culture. There is just as good a chance your ideal Irishman is homophobic.



By saying cultures are equal, you are abdicating any moral or ethical judgement. Multiculturalism is, at its core, Nihilism.

Nazism is not a culture, it is an ideology, there is a definable difference.

I said the culture of nazi germany.
Ideologies are part of cultures.
Again, you're dancing around the issue rather than confront it.

For one thing, a big part of culture is:

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

[/quote]

Nazi Germnay did not have a culture, it had German culture and Nazi idoleogy, to different things.

You are just throwing words together in the hope they make sense

Besides, all this is different from what Lamadia was originally saying. She was saying i should have an unbreakable loyalty to Britain just for the very fact I was born here and nothing else, an idea I find parochial and petty. Which she has still not defended.

[The Nihilistic view]

Hey, when have I ever expressed a love of multiculturalism.

I'm pretty sure you aren't actually a nihilist except in a vague "I guess nihilism is philosophically true but society shouldn't be organized around its principles" way.

You may be a philosophical nihilist, but you aren't a political nihilist.

I am a moral and existential nihilist.

[Napkiraly]

Being against gay marriage is on a significantly different level to believing homosexuality should be illegal.
As is typical for multiculturalists, you are determined to pretend these cultures are equal.
They aren't.

Even the most backward example you could think up from a first world nation is still better, and you just refuse to notice it.

how are cultures not equal?

Because some have better values and beliefs than others.

[Ostroeuropa]

how are cultures not equal?

Because some have better values and beliefs than others.

Apparently that's nonsense.

Besides, all this is different from what Lamadia was originally saying. She was saying i should have an unbreakable loyalty to Britain just for the very fact I was born here and nothing else, an idea I find parochial and petty. Which she has still not defended.

You can up and decide to play for the other team in football and call people narrowminded too if you like.
You're British. You should be out to advocate for our interests.

[Souseiseki]

I'm pretty sure you aren't actually a nihilist except in a vague "I guess nihilism is philosophically true but society shouldn't be organized around its principles" way.

You may be a philosophical nihilist, but you aren't a political nihilist.

I am a moral and existential nihilist.

there's not fucking way you're a moral nihlist lol

[Wolfmanne2]

Being against gay marriage is on a significantly different level to believing homosexuality should be illegal.
As is typical for multiculturalists, you are determined to pretend these cultures are equal.
They aren't.

Even the most backward example you could think up from a first world nation is still better, and you just refuse to notice it.

how are cultures not equal? How is Irish culture superior to Mexican or Russian culture?

Moral relativism genuinely makes me depressed.

[Salandriagado]

Now its funny, I fee far more loyalty and affection for Prague, or Fetiye or St Petersburg than I do Grimsby or bradford, national pride is just an anathema to me

Sorry, did I read that incorrectly?
You feel no pride for this country? You see pride as a bad thing?

Yes, pride is a bad thing. It leads to shit decision making, like any other form of irrationality.

Sorry, am I wrong? Because I thought you had views about how this country should be run? If you don't have any pride for this country or its people, then why do you want to force your politics down our throats? In it for yourself, are you?

Pride has absolutely nothing to do with it. I care about people, pretty much to the exclusion of all else. What labels you feel like slapping on those people is irrelevant to me. Thus, I'll oppose measures that harm people, and support those that help people. This country is the one that I know the most about and have the most influence over, given that it's the one I live in and the only one I'm eligible to vote in, so my focus tends to lean here a little more than elsewhere.

also, I feel you may have misunderstood, I feel regard for the people of this country but because they are people not because they happened to be born in Walthamstow. I feel the same sense of regard and loyalty for all humans.

But why do you feel loyalty to all of humanity? Just because you are on the same piece of floating rock, air and water? Why not feel the same loyalty for dogs? Or cats? Or even trees?

I find it highly likely that people are conscious, sentient, sapient entities, capable of high level thoughts and emotion. I do feel much the same way towards dogs and cats (since they check the majority of those boxes, if not all of them). I see no reason to believe that trees tick those boxes, so I don't think of them the same. The planet is irrelevant: aliens that fill those categories would get exactly the same policy applied to them.

I would just like to point out my reply to your strange tree comment.

And I would like to reply to your strange, anti-British, sentiment, by saying that you show a disregard for a country which you live in. A country which you owe your freedom, your liberty, to.

No, the country that I have consented to giving a little of my liberty and on the understanding that it doesn't abuse the latter or unnecessarily curtail the former.

I could go on, but if your parents didn't bring you up proud of this country and what is has achieved, if you have neglected to have gratitude whilst demanding in your typical leftie attitude that everything be given to you, paid by the hardworkers & those who did not slack at school, then you have no basis for argument.

I'm entirely confident that I receive less benefit from the country, and contribute more to it, than you do. This is a transaction that I'm quite comfortable with, but not any reason for pride.

When you demand benefits, when you demand national healthcare, you neglect to respect the people who pay for it, and the country which gives it to you. I say, shame.

You are conflating a lot of completely different concepts, and abusing the fuck out of all of them:

1) Pride and respect are completely different things. I respect, to a limited degree, this country, and will continue to do so for so long as it continues to not completely screw up running itself, though the degree of that respect drops with every action that isn't to the benefit of people in general. That has absolutely nothing to do with pride.

2) The rich benefit vastly more from the government than the poor do. Even on a net basis once you factor in taxes. Stock market management, the provision of a stable trading currency, protection against theft, beneficial economic law, patent protection, and so on.

You're the one who suggested insufficient national pride should be a bar to standing for office.

Oh, it seems that you are arguing with thin air!
No, Vassenor, I didn't. Now, are we listening?
I said that voters would respond to this as it deserves, and that a moral barrier would exist in any compassionate or even sane person before running for high office in this country with no loyalty or respect for it or its people. I am fine with people being allowed to run regardless. I think, on the democracy front, my side holds more weight, don't you?

That is not even remotely what you said. This is what you said:

You got something right.
I feel no more pride in this country than I do Germany or Spain or India. I feel pride in human civilization, but not Britain per say. Why should I feel anymore pride for the lump of rock I was born on than any other country?
I don't see pride in this country as a bad thing, just parochial. Same with its people.

why do I want to force my politics down you throat? I my not have pride in this country but I still want to see it run well.

The fact that you have no pride in this country or its people disqualifies you from holding any political office. [snip]

If it's not what you meant, feel free to retract or amend your statement, but you very specifically claimed that lack of pride is a bar to holding political office, and the phrase "bar to holding office" is a very narrowly defined one, and absolutely refers to being prevented from holding office by law.

[Ostroeuropa]

how are cultures not equal? How is Irish culture superior to Mexican or Russian culture?

Moral relativism genuinely makes me depressed.

It's one of the bits of garbage the progressive left has generated that sent me screaming and running into the arms of the Tories.
Val has reached the point where she prefers theocrats to these people, as I said earlier.

Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.
Don't call it moral relativism. Give it it's proper name. It's nihilism. This is a moral vacuum. An absence of ethics. To say cultures are equal is a statement that you lack a moral compass. An extreme way of wording it, but ultimately true.

[Geilinor]

Because some have better values and beliefs than others.

Apparently that's nonsense.

Besides, all this is different from what Lamadia was originally saying. She was saying i should have an unbreakable loyalty to Britain just for the very fact I was born here and nothing else, an idea I find parochial and petty. Which she has still not defended.

You can up and decide to play for the other team in football and call people narrowminded too if you like.
You're British. You should be out to advocate for our interests.

"Better" is always going to be subjective. How do you objectively define some cultures as better than others?

[Ostroeuropa]

Apparently that's nonsense.



You can up and decide to play for the other team in football and call people narrowminded too if you like.
You're British. You should be out to advocate for our interests.

"Better" is always going to be subjective. How do you objectively define some cultures as better than others?

Therein lies the rub. We can only do so according to our own values. I accept that is the case, but it's the best we've got.

[Napkiraly]

how are cultures not equal? How is Irish culture superior to Mexican or Russian culture?

Moral relativism genuinely makes me depressed.

Same.

[Wolfmanne2]

Moral relativism genuinely makes me depressed.

It's one of the bits of garbage the progressive left has generated that sent me screaming and running into the arms of the Tories.
Val has reached the point where she prefers theocrats to these people, as I said earlier.

Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism dude, at least it's an ethos.
Don't call it moral relativism. Give it it's proper name. It's nihilism. This is a moral vacuum. An absence of ethics. To say cultures are equal is a statement that you lack a moral compass. An extreme way of wording it, but ultimately true.

What I will say is that you are playing with dangerous, inflammatory rhetoric. It is hard to regard one as civilised when they must resort to excessive and hyperbolic demonisation.

[Souseiseki]

the valuation of which culture is better is, to extent itself, influenced by cultural background and there's no way you can avoid this

*drops mic*

[Vassenor]

Cultural superiority is just such a phenomenally stupid concept. I don't think anyone can really quantify what makes a given culture objectively superior to another.