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Are Women Oppressed in the West?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Are Women Oppressed in the West?

Yes, women are oppressed and unequal to men in the West
56
6%
Yes, but far less than women are in some regions of the world
197
21%
No, women are not oppressed in the West
313
34%
No, but men and women are different and may have different outcomes in life
335
36%
Not sure
26
3%
 
Total votes : 927

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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:07 pm

One of the clever things about feminist marketing of mainstream feminism is presenting a problem. This is a marketing ploy. You don't start off by saying what you want to do or want to get others to do, you start off by presenting a problem or pain, like "Do you suffer from sleeplessness/sniffles/gut cramps?" Any problem. Bored? Lonely? Sexually unsatisfied? Then you need PRODUCT X!

Well that's what many mainstream feminists do. A good example is Jessica Valenti right here on this podcast. Take a listen. it's about 25 minutes so give yourself some time. What she starts off by doing is saying "how can we involve men in dealing with sexual violence against women" and then goes on to say "when we frame sexual assault as a women's issue we leave men out of it". Realy I can't think of anything that is described as a women's issue that is not expected to be dealt with by our civiliation as a whole. Whether it's illnesses, pregnancy, menstruation, education, athletics, roles in movies, custody of children, or this sexual assault thing--since when do only female authorities dealw ith that? Most police are male--looks like they deal with sexual assaut issues. Overwhelmingly male authorities and male citizens are called on to deal with whatever appears to bother women. So what's her issue here? Jessica Valenti does say that there are male victims, but of course she says that overwhelmingly the attackers are male.

However she does say the bizarre contradiction of acceptance of a small percentage of men who do the atacks but that men are overwhelmingly taught that women are objects. So let's see if this makes sense--most men don't treat women as objects--or do they?--but only some men actually carry that out. I'm not sure how that works exactly. This would be like saying "most people are taught that whatever they desire, they ought to have no matter who owns it. But few people really steal." I feel stupider for having listened to that.

Anyway: the problem presented--does it actually exist? Are women really told that they hae sole responsibility for prevention of harm against themselves?

I don't think so. The problem is that women and men have equality now, and women have been told that theya re responsible for their safety. Now when men hear this, they don't think that it is entirely up to them if someone does a criminal act against them--that is the responsibility of the criminal and it is dealt with by society ideally, though often not well to be fair. But the idea of personal responsibility is not an outrage. So why is it to women?

Well let's be honest, it's a double standard. It used to be that men were supposed to just protect women, and there were few ways they could be hit legitimately. But certainly getting into a fist fight with a woman was not done. Women were not supposed to go to war, and people were not supposed to hit a woman outside of the trope of shaking her out of her hysteria or giving her some smacks on the bottom (check out some old John Wayne or Elvis movies.) But you can also see how in those old tropes men are supposed to rush to the aid of women. it's even ingrained in us--the damsel in distress still works though feminists have this weird attitude about it--you're supposed to respond but it's bad to depict it. Meh.

Anyway check it out. i had to take it in small doeses because it was exasperating to listen to, but this drivel is typical of what is being taught. The supposed experts need a dose of reality after haring them too.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:48 pm

Chessmistress wrote:Feminism isn't about how women should behave towards men, quite the opposite: Feminism is about the right of women to behave how we want (within the limits of the law), and you know I'm always ready to discuss in a fair way.


That's not the opposite. The opposite would be "feminism is about how men should behave towards women", which, interestingly, is exactly the sort of thing we see with regards to "cat calling", consent, "slut shaming" etc.

You say it's the women's right to behave how they want. Women already have that. Now the focus is on getting men to conform to a standard of behaviour that puts women in control.
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The Horror Channel
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Postby The Horror Channel » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:46 pm

To answer OPs question, no, they most certainly are not.

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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:26 pm

The Horror Channel wrote:To answer OPs question, no, they most certainly are not.


If you live in a country where you can say "I was fired just because I'm X" and it has to be looked into and you can receive compensation and news headlines for that--that's not oppresion. Oppression is living in a country where you have no recourse in law.
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Sack Jackpot Winners
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Postby Sack Jackpot Winners » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:40 pm

Radikala Skold wrote:
Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:But what if women choose to combat feminism, specifically third wave feminism?


Have you ever heard the words "internalized misogyny"? It's not their fault but, still, it can be a problem (not so relevant, since the number of women actually opposing Feminism is extremely narrow: women who define themselves "anti-feminists" are less than 1%).

So it's sort of like Uncle Toms but for women?

And many women identify as "feminist", but rarely as "third wave feminist", which is the only feminism that seems to matter in too many places. Hell, I'm a first and second wave feminist, but I fight third wavers like the plague.
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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:00 am

Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:
Radikala Skold wrote:
Have you ever heard the words "internalized misogyny"? It's not their fault but, still, it can be a problem (not so relevant, since the number of women actually opposing Feminism is extremely narrow: women who define themselves "anti-feminists" are less than 1%).

So it's sort of like Uncle Toms but for women?

And many women identify as "feminist", but rarely as "third wave feminist", which is the only feminism that seems to matter in too many places. Hell, I'm a first and second wave feminist, but I fight third wavers like the plague.


In what sense do you fight them?
"The three articles of Civil Service faith: it takes longer to do things quickly, it's far more expensive to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things in secret." - Jim Hacker "Yes Minister"

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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:36 am

You make a concerning amount of threads on this sort of topic, New Edom.

That said, Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here, and the need for feminist activism should not be downplayed because females aren't legally considered property anymore.
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The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:41 am

New Edom wrote:
Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:So it's sort of like Uncle Toms but for women?

And many women identify as "feminist", but rarely as "third wave feminist", which is the only feminism that seems to matter in too many places. Hell, I'm a first and second wave feminist, but I fight third wavers like the plague.


In what sense do you fight them?

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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:42 am

Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:And many women identify as "feminist", but rarely as "third wave feminist", which is the only feminism that seems to matter in too many places. Hell, I'm a first and second wave feminist, but I fight third wavers like the plague.


If you're a millennial? 47% of women and 22% of men identify as a feminist.

In total, 35% of millennials identify as feminists.
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Minzerland
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Postby Minzerland » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:02 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You make a concerning amount of threads on this sort of topic, New Edom.

That said, Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here, and the need for feminist activism should not be downplayed because females aren't legally considered property anymore.

Please elaborate.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:24 am

Minzerland wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You make a concerning amount of threads on this sort of topic, New Edom.

That said, Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here, and the need for feminist activism should not be downplayed because females aren't legally considered property anymore.

Please elaborate.

On what? Seems like my statement was fairly clear and concise.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Minzerland
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Postby Minzerland » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:28 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Minzerland wrote:Please elaborate.

On what? Seems like my statement was fairly clear and concise.

Elaborate on the assertion that women are held under a 'patriarchy'. Discrimination doesn't really cut it.
Last edited by Minzerland on Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
'Common sense isn't so common.'
-Voltaire

'I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It.'
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall

I'm a Tribune of the Plebs, so watch out, or I might just veto you. You may call me Minzerland or Sam.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:51 am

Minzerland wrote:Elaborate on the assertion that women are held under a 'patriarchy'.

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here.

"Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property." [X]

"There are 435 seats in the House. There are 100 seats in the Senate. ... There are 98 women members of Congress. There are 78 in the House and 20 in the Senate." [X]

"Women currently hold 4.4% of CEO positions at S&P 500 companies." [X]

"Best paid CEOs in America are all white and male." [X]

"Women hold 16.6 percent of board seats at Fortune 500 companies... one-tenth had no women serving on their boards." [X]

does this cut it for ya, orrrrr.

like I don't know why this is even an argument lol. centuries upon centuries of open brutal institutional male dominance doesn't just whoosh and disappear in a couple of decades lololol
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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:58 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Minzerland wrote:Elaborate on the assertion that women are held under a 'patriarchy'.

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here.

"Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property." [X]

"There are 435 seats in the House. There are 100 seats in the Senate. ... There are 98 women members of Congress. There are 78 in the House and 20 in the Senate." [X]

"Women currently hold 4.4% of CEO positions at S&P 500 companies." [X]

"Best paid CEOs in America are all white and male." [X]

"Women hold 16.6 percent of board seats at Fortune 500 companies... one-tenth had no women serving on their boards." [X]

does this cut it for ya, orrrrr.

like I don't know why this is even an argument lol. centuries upon centuries of open brutal institutional male dominance doesn't just whoosh and disappear in a couple of decades lololol


That's not really oppression though. The fact that women are in government, have CEO and high paying jobs, are often favored in cases involving rape and divorce, and are allowed to actively spew forth their ideology means they're not oppressed.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Minzerland
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Postby Minzerland » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:00 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Minzerland wrote:Elaborate on the assertion that women are held under a 'patriarchy'.

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here.

"Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property." [X]

"There are 435 seats in the House. There are 100 seats in the Senate. ... There are 98 women members of Congress. There are 78 in the House and 20 in the Senate." [X]

"Women currently hold 4.4% of CEO positions at S&P 500 companies." [X]

"Best paid CEOs in America are all white and male." [X]

"Women hold 16.6 percent of board seats at Fortune 500 companies... one-tenth had no women serving on their boards." [X]

does this cut it for ya, orrrrr.

like I don't know why this is even an argument lol. centuries upon centuries of open brutal institutional male dominance doesn't just whoosh and disappear in a couple of decades lololol

Are women somehow hindered in making these positions? And if so, can you substantiate said hinderance? Or should we just give women these positions because men hold the vast majority of said positions?
Last edited by Minzerland on Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
'Common sense isn't so common.'
-Voltaire

'I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It.'
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall

I'm a Tribune of the Plebs, so watch out, or I might just veto you. You may call me Minzerland or Sam.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:22 am

Pandeeria wrote:That's not really oppression though. The fact that women are in government, have CEO and high paying jobs, are often favored in cases involving rape and divorce, and are allowed to actively spew forth their ideology means they're not oppressed.

Bullshit. You act like nuance and degrees of severity are evil cultural marxist conspiracies.
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The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Pandeeria
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Postby Pandeeria » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:31 am

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:That's not really oppression though. The fact that women are in government, have CEO and high paying jobs, are often favored in cases involving rape and divorce, and are allowed to actively spew forth their ideology means they're not oppressed.

Bullshit. You act like nuance and degrees of severity are evil cultural marxist conspiracies.


?

All I said is that I don't think it's oppression when you literally have the rights to complain about it, to try and change it, and being able to have a CEO-type job in the first place. Where you're getting these "evil cultural Marxist conspiracies" from, how they're relevant, and what they even are I don't know.

Where discrimination does exist, that sucks. But don't think it's all one hundred percent male on female discrimination. Regardless, what you talked about seems to be less like oppression and more like First World Problems "Only 5% of women are millionaires*, oh noes! The oppression!".

*By the way, I was not quoting a real statistic there, it was a fake number I used to try and prove a point and for some comedic effect
Last edited by Pandeeria on Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.

In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

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Lexten
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Postby Lexten » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:48 am

Gravlen wrote:
Lexten wrote:1) Yes, but that event occurred 17 years ago when DNA technology was less developed and the field was comparatively new. And now, any competent lawyer could point to that case in order to ensure it does not happen again.

Yet it has happened again, as is illustrated in the book Inside the Cell: The Dark Side of Forensic DNA by Erin E. Murphy (Nation Books, 2015.)


I haven't read the book and I'm not going to for an Internet debate so I can't comment on the scenarios in it.

Gravlen wrote:
Lexten wrote:2) How exactly can the scenario you have described where someone thinks they are being threatened but aren't happen?

A boss is having consensual sex with a subordinate. During the encounter they joke around, and the boss says "well you have to have sex with me, or I'd have to fire you". The next time the boss initiates an encounter, the subordinate feels coerced into having sex, and feels there's a real threat of being fired if s/he refuses. It was subjectively not a threat, but the power differential in their relationship makes it complicated.


That does count as consent and would count legally because:
1) You are under duress when violence is threatened against you or people you feel a responsibility for. Not a loss of material gain.
2) A reasonable person would know that they can report a situation like that to the HR department of the company and/or sue the boss because what they thought the boss said is obviously illegal.

Gravlen wrote: Alternatively, there was a case where a man threatened to kill himself if his ex wife didn't have sex with him. She was afraid what could happen to their child, who was sleeping upstairs, and felt that this was a threat against both her and her child. Objectively, he only threatened to harm himself, but in that situation she subjectively felt threatened.


That wouldn't count as consent and the husband could also probably be charged with domestic abuse (or something similar) because the man is threatening violence towards somebody that she could be expected to feel responsible for (himself).

Gravlen wrote:
Lexten wrote:3) Being passive in bed =/= not moving at all and not saying anything at all. I mean, are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't know if someone was unconscious while you were having sex with them?

This is not about me, this is about what people in this situation experience. And there are indeed people who are consious yet not moving and not saying anything while having sex.


I'm sorry but it is completely ridiculous to continue having sex with somebody who is completely still, completely silent, breathing very shallowly, has their eyes glazed over/closed and isn't reacting to any of your movements without at least checking if they're awake.

Gravlen wrote:
Lexten wrote:3) Well yes, a mute person can give consent through nodding/sign language.

While there are some mute people who know sign language, that's mainly an thing for deaf individuals.

And if you agree that someone can give consent through nodding, then you agree in general that you don't need a verbal response in order to establish consent.


If the body language is completely unambiguous and they're actively engaging in the act, then yes that us consent, and is recognised as such by the law.

Gravlen wrote:
Lexten wrote:4)His story which had changed versus the story of two eyewitnesses who saw him raping an unconscious woman actually.

The eyewitnesses could not say what had happened before they came upon them, however. The eyewitnesses could not say whether or not she had consented previously, at a time when she wasn't unconscious.


Are you saying that if one person consents to sex and then passes out, and the other person still has their consent?

Gravlen wrote:
Lexten wrote:5) So somebody is so frozen up and terrified (after giving consent) that they are completely incapable of physically pushing the other person away or audibly asking them to stop but can somehow inaudibly withdraw their consent. Seriously?

No, not inaudibly.


Inaudible - unable to be heard.
If the other person was not able to hear them then they are unable to be heard.

Gravlen wrote:
Lexten wrote:And that is why, as I said, in addition to DNA analysis, statements from eyewitnesses, the alleged victim and alleged perpetrator are taken. However DNA analysis is the most common way to establish if two people had sex.

Actually, the most common way to establish if two people had sex is by asking them.

And, as seen in the case above, even when DNA evidence is found inside another person whom it was indisputible didn't give consent, it's not necessarily a case of "either you didn't give consent and were raped or you gave consent and weren't".


What I said about consent applies when two people have had sex. Obviously. In the article you linked they hadn't and there was another reasonable explanation. The definition I used to establish whether somebody has been raped is also the definition most legal jurisdictions use. The only grey areas there are are to do with whether or not there was consent and the answer to that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and person to person.

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El Fiji Grande
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Postby El Fiji Grande » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:07 am

Simply put, no. And the wage gap can be explained by job differences and life choices.
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Postby Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:11 am

Arcipelago wrote:
Jello Biafra wrote:Your own source admits that there is a wage gap.

Did you not read a few sentences down on his source. The adjusted wage gap of 4.8 and 7.1 percent doesn't take into account many other factors that they cannot accurately survey. Therefore they actually say it shouldn't be considered meaningful at all.

I did read a few sentences down. Firstly, it states that women tend to value workplaces with "family-friendly" policies, despite the fact that men actually have slightly more workplace flexibility than women do. Secondly, it speculates as to a bunch of other factors as to what causes it, which is fine, but speculation is not 'considerable evidence against discrimination'.

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Jello Biafra
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Postby Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:15 am

Lexten wrote:
Gravlen wrote:You have withdrawn it, but the person you're with continues (because he didn't hear, was the original statement). You require that the person physically push the other person away or shout - none of which negates the fact that consent has been withdrawn.

5) So somebody is so frozen up and terrified (after giving consent) that they are completely incapable of physically pushing the other person away or audibly asking them to stop but can somehow inaudibly withdraw their consent. Seriously?

Or alternatively, someone in a bondage scenario who is tied up says the safeword, but the other person doesn't hear it.

]quote="Jello Biafra";p="29482902"]It is possible for someone to have consensual and nonconsensual sex on the same night.
Also, there could be massive prosecutorial misconduct.


Yes, but I assume that someone who has been raped can tell the difference between their rapist and somebody who they had consensual see with. [/quote]
Sometimes people get intoxicated and pass out, or are otherwise too intoxicated to consent and remember what happened.

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Jello Biafra
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Postby Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:17 am

New Edom wrote:
Jello Biafra wrote:What do you want me to say? "You're right, of course there should be sexist differences in ethical interactions."?


What I'd like from feminists is that they admit that they do not have a model for ethical interaction with men. because they don't. Until they do and indicate they are willing to discuss it fairly, I entirely oppose any furthering of the feminist socio-political agenda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_ethics
Is any of these specific enough for you?

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Jello Biafra
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Postby Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:19 am

Aelex wrote:
Jello Biafra wrote:He'd also need to be willing to show you his check, of course.

Because men are like an hivemind, all working collectively to maintain the Patriarchy. :roll:

Bosses are all too happy to tell their employees to not discuss their pay with each other. No hivemind needed.

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Jello Biafra
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Postby Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:21 am

New Edom wrote:However she does say the bizarre contradiction of acceptance of a small percentage of men who do the atacks but that men are overwhelmingly taught that women are objects. So let's see if this makes sense--most men don't treat women as objects--or do they?--but only some men actually carry that out. I'm not sure how that works exactly. This would be like saying "most people are taught that whatever they desire, they ought to have no matter who owns it. But few people really steal."

People are also taught that stealing is illegal. It's not as though people are given one thing to think on any given subject.
Last edited by Jello Biafra on Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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El Fiji Grande
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Postby El Fiji Grande » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:31 am

Jello Biafra wrote:
New Edom wrote:However she does say the bizarre contradiction of acceptance of a small percentage of men who do the atacks but that men are overwhelmingly taught that women are objects. So let's see if this makes sense--most men don't treat women as objects--or do they?--but only some men actually carry that out. I'm not sure how that works exactly. This would be like saying "most people are taught that whatever they desire, they ought to have no matter who owns it. But few people really steal."

People are also taught that stealing is illegal. It's not as though people are given one thing to think on any given subject.

Well, you can easily make the same point that people are taught that sexual assault and abuse are illegal.
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