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by New Edom » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:07 pm

by Costa Fierro » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:48 pm
Chessmistress wrote:Feminism isn't about how women should behave towards men, quite the opposite: Feminism is about the right of women to behave how we want (within the limits of the law), and you know I'm always ready to discuss in a fair way.

by The Horror Channel » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:46 pm

by New Edom » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:26 pm
The Horror Channel wrote:To answer OPs question, no, they most certainly are not.

by Sack Jackpot Winners » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:40 pm
Radikala Skold wrote:Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:But what if women choose to combat feminism, specifically third wave feminism?
Have you ever heard the words "internalized misogyny"? It's not their fault but, still, it can be a problem (not so relevant, since the number of women actually opposing Feminism is extremely narrow: women who define themselves "anti-feminists" are less than 1%).

by New Edom » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:00 am
Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:Radikala Skold wrote:
Have you ever heard the words "internalized misogyny"? It's not their fault but, still, it can be a problem (not so relevant, since the number of women actually opposing Feminism is extremely narrow: women who define themselves "anti-feminists" are less than 1%).
So it's sort of like Uncle Toms but for women?
And many women identify as "feminist", but rarely as "third wave feminist", which is the only feminism that seems to matter in too many places. Hell, I'm a first and second wave feminist, but I fight third wavers like the plague.

by Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:36 am

by Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:41 am
New Edom wrote:Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:So it's sort of like Uncle Toms but for women?
And many women identify as "feminist", but rarely as "third wave feminist", which is the only feminism that seems to matter in too many places. Hell, I'm a first and second wave feminist, but I fight third wavers like the plague.
In what sense do you fight them?

by Costa Fierro » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:42 am
Sack Jackpot Winners wrote:And many women identify as "feminist", but rarely as "third wave feminist", which is the only feminism that seems to matter in too many places. Hell, I'm a first and second wave feminist, but I fight third wavers like the plague.

by Minzerland » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:02 am
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You make a concerning amount of threads on this sort of topic, New Edom.
That said, Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here, and the need for feminist activism should not be downplayed because females aren't legally considered property anymore.

by Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:24 am
Minzerland wrote:Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You make a concerning amount of threads on this sort of topic, New Edom.
That said, Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here, and the need for feminist activism should not be downplayed because females aren't legally considered property anymore.
Please elaborate.

by Minzerland » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:28 am

by Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:51 am
Minzerland wrote:Elaborate on the assertion that women are held under a 'patriarchy'.
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here.

by Pandeeria » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:58 am
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Minzerland wrote:Elaborate on the assertion that women are held under a 'patriarchy'.Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here.
"Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property." [X]
"There are 435 seats in the House. There are 100 seats in the Senate. ... There are 98 women members of Congress. There are 78 in the House and 20 in the Senate." [X]
"Women currently hold 4.4% of CEO positions at S&P 500 companies." [X]
"Best paid CEOs in America are all white and male." [X]
"Women hold 16.6 percent of board seats at Fortune 500 companies... one-tenth had no women serving on their boards." [X]
does this cut it for ya, orrrrr.
like I don't know why this is even an argument lol. centuries upon centuries of open brutal institutional male dominance doesn't just whoosh and disappear in a couple of decades lololol
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

by Minzerland » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:00 am
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Minzerland wrote:Elaborate on the assertion that women are held under a 'patriarchy'.Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Western society is still patriarchal. Women are still subject to a degree of misogyny and discrimination here.
"Patriarchy is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property." [X]
"There are 435 seats in the House. There are 100 seats in the Senate. ... There are 98 women members of Congress. There are 78 in the House and 20 in the Senate." [X]
"Women currently hold 4.4% of CEO positions at S&P 500 companies." [X]
"Best paid CEOs in America are all white and male." [X]
"Women hold 16.6 percent of board seats at Fortune 500 companies... one-tenth had no women serving on their boards." [X]
does this cut it for ya, orrrrr.
like I don't know why this is even an argument lol. centuries upon centuries of open brutal institutional male dominance doesn't just whoosh and disappear in a couple of decades lololol

by Prussia-Steinbach » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:22 am
Pandeeria wrote:That's not really oppression though. The fact that women are in government, have CEO and high paying jobs, are often favored in cases involving rape and divorce, and are allowed to actively spew forth their ideology means they're not oppressed.

by Pandeeria » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:31 am
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Pandeeria wrote:That's not really oppression though. The fact that women are in government, have CEO and high paying jobs, are often favored in cases involving rape and divorce, and are allowed to actively spew forth their ideology means they're not oppressed.
Bullshit. You act like nuance and degrees of severity are evil cultural marxist conspiracies.
Lavochkin wrote:Never got why educated people support communism.
In capitalism, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of being rich or poor. In communism, it's 1/99. What makes people think they have the luck/skill to become the 1% if they can't even succeed in a 50/50 society???

by Lexten » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:48 am
Gravlen wrote:Lexten wrote:1) Yes, but that event occurred 17 years ago when DNA technology was less developed and the field was comparatively new. And now, any competent lawyer could point to that case in order to ensure it does not happen again.
Yet it has happened again, as is illustrated in the book Inside the Cell: The Dark Side of Forensic DNA by Erin E. Murphy (Nation Books, 2015.)
Gravlen wrote:Lexten wrote:2) How exactly can the scenario you have described where someone thinks they are being threatened but aren't happen?
A boss is having consensual sex with a subordinate. During the encounter they joke around, and the boss says "well you have to have sex with me, or I'd have to fire you". The next time the boss initiates an encounter, the subordinate feels coerced into having sex, and feels there's a real threat of being fired if s/he refuses. It was subjectively not a threat, but the power differential in their relationship makes it complicated.
Gravlen wrote: Alternatively, there was a case where a man threatened to kill himself if his ex wife didn't have sex with him. She was afraid what could happen to their child, who was sleeping upstairs, and felt that this was a threat against both her and her child. Objectively, he only threatened to harm himself, but in that situation she subjectively felt threatened.
Gravlen wrote:Lexten wrote:3) Being passive in bed =/= not moving at all and not saying anything at all. I mean, are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't know if someone was unconscious while you were having sex with them?
This is not about me, this is about what people in this situation experience. And there are indeed people who are consious yet not moving and not saying anything while having sex.
Gravlen wrote:Lexten wrote:3) Well yes, a mute person can give consent through nodding/sign language.
While there are some mute people who know sign language, that's mainly an thing for deaf individuals.
And if you agree that someone can give consent through nodding, then you agree in general that you don't need a verbal response in order to establish consent.
Gravlen wrote:Lexten wrote:4)His story which had changed versus the story of two eyewitnesses who saw him raping an unconscious woman actually.
The eyewitnesses could not say what had happened before they came upon them, however. The eyewitnesses could not say whether or not she had consented previously, at a time when she wasn't unconscious.
Gravlen wrote:Lexten wrote:And that is why, as I said, in addition to DNA analysis, statements from eyewitnesses, the alleged victim and alleged perpetrator are taken. However DNA analysis is the most common way to establish if two people had sex.
Actually, the most common way to establish if two people had sex is by asking them.
And, as seen in the case above, even when DNA evidence is found inside another person whom it was indisputible didn't give consent, it's not necessarily a case of "either you didn't give consent and were raped or you gave consent and weren't".

by El Fiji Grande » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:07 am
by Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:11 am
Arcipelago wrote:Jello Biafra wrote:Your own source admits that there is a wage gap.
Did you not read a few sentences down on his source. The adjusted wage gap of 4.8 and 7.1 percent doesn't take into account many other factors that they cannot accurately survey. Therefore they actually say it shouldn't be considered meaningful at all.
by Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:15 am
Lexten wrote:Gravlen wrote:You have withdrawn it, but the person you're with continues (because he didn't hear, was the original statement). You require that the person physically push the other person away or shout - none of which negates the fact that consent has been withdrawn.
5) So somebody is so frozen up and terrified (after giving consent) that they are completely incapable of physically pushing the other person away or audibly asking them to stop but can somehow inaudibly withdraw their consent. Seriously?
]quote="Jello Biafra";p="29482902"]It is possible for someone to have consensual and nonconsensual sex on the same night.
Also, there could be massive prosecutorial misconduct.
by Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:17 am
New Edom wrote:Jello Biafra wrote:What do you want me to say? "You're right, of course there should be sexist differences in ethical interactions."?
What I'd like from feminists is that they admit that they do not have a model for ethical interaction with men. because they don't. Until they do and indicate they are willing to discuss it fairly, I entirely oppose any furthering of the feminist socio-political agenda.
by Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:19 am
by Jello Biafra » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:21 am
New Edom wrote:However she does say the bizarre contradiction of acceptance of a small percentage of men who do the atacks but that men are overwhelmingly taught that women are objects. So let's see if this makes sense--most men don't treat women as objects--or do they?--but only some men actually carry that out. I'm not sure how that works exactly. This would be like saying "most people are taught that whatever they desire, they ought to have no matter who owns it. But few people really steal."

by El Fiji Grande » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:31 am
Jello Biafra wrote:New Edom wrote:However she does say the bizarre contradiction of acceptance of a small percentage of men who do the atacks but that men are overwhelmingly taught that women are objects. So let's see if this makes sense--most men don't treat women as objects--or do they?--but only some men actually carry that out. I'm not sure how that works exactly. This would be like saying "most people are taught that whatever they desire, they ought to have no matter who owns it. But few people really steal."
People are also taught that stealing is illegal. It's not as though people are given one thing to think on any given subject.
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