Discussing the Rudolf Hess Punishment after WWII

[The Forsworn Knights]

Details about Hess Himself which may prove useful in the coming debates about whether his punishment was just, and whether the severity of his crimes excused the actions taken against him in his imprisonment. If you wish to cut through the basic history and skip to the debatey stuff, there will be more Bolded Text to indicate it.

This chap right here is Rudolf Hess, a Deputy Führer under Adolf Hitler in World War Two. Hess was an Infantryman in the First World War and was wounded several times, being granted the Iron Cross. He later left the German Military in 1918 having risen to the rank of Leutnant der Reserve. Hess later enrolled in a University, where he learned of the concept of Lebensraum- an idea which later became one of the Centre-piece policies of the Nazi Regime. Hess joined the NSDAP in 1920, and was one of Hitler's leading followers in the failed Coup known as the Beer Hall Putsch. Hess was in prison for the attempted Coup, he assisted Hitler in the writing of the book 'Mein Kampf'.
After the Nazi Party took power in 1933 with Hitler as its leader, Hess was granted the office of 'Deputy Führer of the NSDAP', and was granted official recognition as a Cabinet Member, making him the third highest-ranking official (Behind only Goring and Hitler himself).
Hess was also the spearhead of the Nazi Party's anti-semitic movement, including the Nuremberg Laws.

Here comes the Debatey stuff.
Hess was sent to attempt to commence peace talks with the British government hoping to work through the Duke of Hamilton in Scotland. Hess was arrested upon arrival in Britain and was sentenced to life in The Spandau Prison- an extremely secure internationally-controlled prison meant for German War Criminals, having been charged with 'Crimes against Peace', and 'Conspiracy with other German Leaders to Commit Crimes'.
The topic of debate that I seek to look into regards the Spandau Prison itself, and whether the severity of its associated punishments are ever right, even for men as evil as Rudolf Hess.
In total there were seven prisoners in Spandau before it was torn down after Hess's death (With his suicide marking the death of the last of the seven inmates), however I will be focusing on Rudolf Hess

Spandau was a Maximum Security Prison in Germany designated for use with prominent war criminals, such as Hess, among others. The Prison was owned and operated by a joint effort between France, Britain, the Soviet Union, and the United States, and every step taken by a prisoner in Spandau was heavily regulated and closely monitored. Each of the Four Powers provided guards to the prison who were rotated every month, with there being gaps between any two guards serving at the same time. (Following details as to the severity of the Prison's punishments detailed below, the following Paragraph is taken entirely from Wikipedia and is in no way my own work:)

Every facet of life in the prison was strictly set out by an intricate prison regulation scheme designed before the prisoners' arrival by the Four Powers — France, Britain, the Soviet Union and the United States. Compared with other established prison regulations at the time, Spandau's rules were quite strict. The prisoners' outgoing letters to families were at first limited to one page every month, talking with fellow prisoners was prohibited, newspapers were banned, diaries and memoirs were forbidden, visits by families were limited to one of fifteen minutes every two months, and lights were flashed into the prisoners' cells every fifteen minutes during the night as a form of suicide watch. A considerable portion of the stricter regulations was either later revised toward the more lenient, or deliberately ignored by prison staff.

It is noteworthy that the inmates feared the months when the prison was wardened by a Soviet Officer the most however, as the Russian Guard Captain maintained barely-legal meals for his prisoners, while Prison Employees (Both Western and Russian) were said to both hate and fear the Soviet Warden for his sheer brutality towards the inhabitants of the prison.

I personally believe that the prison was essentially a well thought-out method of torturing the war criminals held there, as the isolation of Solitary Confinement and poor living conditions have been attributed to the deteriorated mental health of its prisoners. I believe that the morally correct thing to do would be to simply execute the Nazi Officials held there, however I do not believe I would have gone out of my way to campaign too hard against the punishments laid down upon these men.
What do you think NSG? Did Rudolf Hess deserved his punishment for his role in the Nazi Government, or do you believe that the Allies should have done more to maintain the Moral High Ground, rather than torturing seven men?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I don't believe it was intentionally set up to be a torture chamber, but it became exactly that based on the Wikipedia article.

It was inhumane. However, it was the late 1940s - early 1950s. Prison reform would not appear until several decades later, as you well may know.

[Exploited Crisis]

It's my understanding that Hess was coddled pretty much the last 20+ years he was incarcerated at Spandau. Unlocked cell, freedom to access the library and gardens, a hot water heater in his room (a converted chapel space) to personally make tea and coffee as he wished, etc.

Torture? FFS,really?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's my understanding that Hess was coddled pretty much the last 20+ years he was incarcerated at Spandau. Unlocked cell, freedom to access the library and gardens, a hot water heater in his room (a converted chapel space) to personally make tea and coffee as he wished, etc.

Torture? FFS,really?

Is there any source that says this? Would you mind if I ask you to share it?

[Exploited Crisis]

It's my understanding that Hess was coddled pretty much the last 20+ years he was incarcerated at Spandau. Unlocked cell, freedom to access the library and gardens, a hot water heater in his room (a converted chapel space) to personally make tea and coffee as he wished, etc.

Torture? FFS,really?

Is there any source that says this? Would you mind if I ask you to share it?

From Wikipedia, Spandau Prison article...

Rudolf Hess, sentenced to life but not released due to ill health like Raeder, Funk, or Neurath, served the longest sentence out of the seven and was by far the most demanding of the prisoners. Regarded as being the 'laziest man in Spandau', Hess avoided all forms of work that he deemed below his dignity, such as pulling weeds. He was the only one of the seven who almost never attended the prison's Sunday church service. A paranoid hypochondriac, he repeatedly complained of all forms of illness, mostly stomach pains, and was suspicious of all food given to him, always taking the dish placed farthest away from him as a means of avoiding being poisoned. His stomach pains often caused wild and excessive moans and cries of pain throughout the day and night and their authenticity was repeatedly the subject of debate between the prisoners and the prison directors.

Raeder, Dönitz, and Schirach were contemptuous of this behaviour and viewed them as cries for attention or as means to avoid work. Speer and Funk, acutely aware of the likely psychosomatic nature of the illness, were more accommodating to Hess. Speer, in a move that invoked the ire of his fellow prisoners, would often tend to Hess' needs, bringing him his coat when he was cold and coming to his defence when a director or guard was attempting to coax Hess out of bed and into work. Hess occasionally wailed in pain at night, affecting the sleep of the other prisoners. The prison's medical officer would inject Hess with what was described as a "sedative" but was in reality distilled water and succeeded in putting Hess to sleep. The fact that Hess repeatedly shirked duties the others had to bear and received other preferential treatment because of his illness, irked the other prisoners and earned him the title of "His imprisoned Lordship" by the admirals.

Hess was also unique among the prisoners in that, as a matter of dignity, he refused all visitors for more than twenty years, finally consenting to see his long-since adult son and wife in 1969 after suffering from a perforated ulcer that required his treatment at a hospital outside the prison. Fearing for his mental health, now that he was the sole remaining inmate, and that his death was imminent, the prison directors agreed to slacken most of the remaining regulations, moving Hess to the more spacious former chapel space, giving him a water heater to allow the making of tea or coffee when he liked, and permanently unlocking his cell so that he could freely access the prison's bathing facilities and library.

Hess was frequently moved from room to room every night for security reasons. He was often taken to BMH (British Military Hospital) not far from Spandau prison where the entire second floor of the hospital was blocked off for him. He continued to be under heavy guard while in hospital. Ward security was provided by soldiers including Royal Military Police (RMP) Close Protection personnel. External security was provided by one of the British infantry battalions then stationed in Berlin. On some unusual occasions, the Russians relaxed their strict regulations; during these times Hess was allowed to spend extra time in the prison garden, and one of the warders from the superpowers took Hess outside the prison for a stroll and sometimes dinner.[9]


To say Hess was "tortured" is a smack in the face / piss on the grave of anyone who ever was tortured in horrible conditions, like say the 7+ million people Hess' comrades snuffed out.

[The Conez Imperium]

Hess is a nutter. All you have to do to confirm your opinion is to watch the closing scene of Triumph of Will.

I don't have the heart to advocate for death or torture so the Spandau prison appears appropriate. It seems like talking about Speer would be a more controversial topic for debate with his image as the "good nazi"

[USS Monitor]

Even if you want to argue that Spandau was inhumane, I don't see how executing them would have been an improvement.

The guys that got sent to Spandau were specifically the ones the Allies didn't think deserved to be executed because their crimes were less severe than other high-ranking Nazis like Goering. Some of them got less than a life sentence and actually got to have a life after they finished their sentence. Executing them would take away that 2nd chance at life, and our knowledge of Nazi history would not be as complete if we missed out on the unique perspective offered by their memoirs, interviews, etc.

[USS Monitor]

Hess is a nutter. All you have to do to confirm your opinion is to watch the closing scene of Triumph of Will.

I don't have the heart to advocate for death or torture so the Spandau prison appears appropriate. It seems like talking about Speer would be a more controversial topic for debate with his image as the "good nazi"

"Good Nazi" or not, Speer was pretty deeply involved with the use of forced labor. I find him weirdly likable, but still think a prison sentence was justified because of the extent of the forced labor program and Speer's use of it.

With Hess, one could debate whether he belonged in prison or a mental institution.

[The Two Jerseys]

I always thought that making Hess serve his full sentence was a bit harsh, considering that some of the Nazis who got shorter sentences or an early release did (in my opinion) far worse than he did.

[Frank Zipper]

He's dead and I doubt his treatment has any future relevance as the situation was so unique. Personally I think he should have been in a mental health treatment facility, though the experience of that might have been just as bad as being in Spandau.

[Irona]

I don't think the experience was perticulally harsh and I find it more than a little rediculous to compare it to torture.

[New Edom]

I think the question was very well answered by the psoter who quoted examples of how the prisoners were treated. Interestingly they were treated far better than prisoners were treated after the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11. They were certainly treated far better than the Japanese treated their Allied POWs. It's a fair enough question, but the answer is no, according to evidence and records he was not tortured. Sure it was a maximum security prison and military personnel were controlling it, but there is little evidence I can think of for torture. I would cite more but others have already done that to my satisfaction.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Is there any source that says this? Would you mind if I ask you to share it?

From Wikipedia, Spandau Prison article...

Rudolf Hess, sentenced to life but not released due to ill health like Raeder, Funk, or Neurath, served the longest sentence out of the seven and was by far the most demanding of the prisoners. Regarded as being the 'laziest man in Spandau', Hess avoided all forms of work that he deemed below his dignity, such as pulling weeds. He was the only one of the seven who almost never attended the prison's Sunday church service. A paranoid hypochondriac, he repeatedly complained of all forms of illness, mostly stomach pains, and was suspicious of all food given to him, always taking the dish placed farthest away from him as a means of avoiding being poisoned. His stomach pains often caused wild and excessive moans and cries of pain throughout the day and night and their authenticity was repeatedly the subject of debate between the prisoners and the prison directors.

Raeder, Dönitz, and Schirach were contemptuous of this behaviour and viewed them as cries for attention or as means to avoid work. Speer and Funk, acutely aware of the likely psychosomatic nature of the illness, were more accommodating to Hess. Speer, in a move that invoked the ire of his fellow prisoners, would often tend to Hess' needs, bringing him his coat when he was cold and coming to his defence when a director or guard was attempting to coax Hess out of bed and into work. Hess occasionally wailed in pain at night, affecting the sleep of the other prisoners. The prison's medical officer would inject Hess with what was described as a "sedative" but was in reality distilled water and succeeded in putting Hess to sleep. The fact that Hess repeatedly shirked duties the others had to bear and received other preferential treatment because of his illness, irked the other prisoners and earned him the title of "His imprisoned Lordship" by the admirals.

Hess was also unique among the prisoners in that, as a matter of dignity, he refused all visitors for more than twenty years, finally consenting to see his long-since adult son and wife in 1969 after suffering from a perforated ulcer that required his treatment at a hospital outside the prison. Fearing for his mental health, now that he was the sole remaining inmate, and that his death was imminent, the prison directors agreed to slacken most of the remaining regulations, moving Hess to the more spacious former chapel space, giving him a water heater to allow the making of tea or coffee when he liked, and permanently unlocking his cell so that he could freely access the prison's bathing facilities and library.

Hess was frequently moved from room to room every night for security reasons. He was often taken to BMH (British Military Hospital) not far from Spandau prison where the entire second floor of the hospital was blocked off for him. He continued to be under heavy guard while in hospital. Ward security was provided by soldiers including Royal Military Police (RMP) Close Protection personnel. External security was provided by one of the British infantry battalions then stationed in Berlin. On some unusual occasions, the Russians relaxed their strict regulations; during these times Hess was allowed to spend extra time in the prison garden, and one of the warders from the superpowers took Hess outside the prison for a stroll and sometimes dinner.[9]


To say Hess was "tortured" is a smack in the face / piss on the grave of anyone who ever was tortured in horrible conditions, like say the 7+ million people Hess' comrades snuffed out.

Yea, I agree. That doesn't sound like torture.

However, the conspiracy theory behind his death is fascinating. If anything, it has a shred of merit for him being an old bastard.

Not that that's saying much towards confirming it, but it's a plausible theory regardless.

[USS Monitor]

I always thought that making Hess serve his full sentence was a bit harsh, considering that some of the Nazis who got shorter sentences or an early release did (in my opinion) far worse than he did.

I think it was because of his closeness to Hitler and his unshakable devotion to the Nazi cause. Without people like him working to build the Nazi movement in its early days, it might have never taken off and a lot of the others might have never been Nazis.

I think the logic behind executing Streicher was similar. Streicher's career hit a dead end because even the other Nazis thought he was too nasty to keep trusting him with more power, so he never personally did as much damage as some of the others -- but he was active in the movement from an early date and played a large role in disseminating anti-Semitic ideas.

Part of the logic in refusing to release Hess may have been to prevent him from rallying neo-Nazis, since he was (and still is) very admired in neo-Nazi circles. They tore down Spandau after Hess died to prevent it becoming a place for neo-Nazis to rally.

[USS Monitor]

From Wikipedia, Spandau Prison article...

Rudolf Hess, sentenced to life but not released due to ill health like Raeder, Funk, or Neurath, served the longest sentence out of the seven and was by far the most demanding of the prisoners. Regarded as being the 'laziest man in Spandau', Hess avoided all forms of work that he deemed below his dignity, such as pulling weeds. He was the only one of the seven who almost never attended the prison's Sunday church service. A paranoid hypochondriac, he repeatedly complained of all forms of illness, mostly stomach pains, and was suspicious of all food given to him, always taking the dish placed farthest away from him as a means of avoiding being poisoned. His stomach pains often caused wild and excessive moans and cries of pain throughout the day and night and their authenticity was repeatedly the subject of debate between the prisoners and the prison directors.

Raeder, Dönitz, and Schirach were contemptuous of this behaviour and viewed them as cries for attention or as means to avoid work. Speer and Funk, acutely aware of the likely psychosomatic nature of the illness, were more accommodating to Hess. Speer, in a move that invoked the ire of his fellow prisoners, would often tend to Hess' needs, bringing him his coat when he was cold and coming to his defence when a director or guard was attempting to coax Hess out of bed and into work. Hess occasionally wailed in pain at night, affecting the sleep of the other prisoners. The prison's medical officer would inject Hess with what was described as a "sedative" but was in reality distilled water and succeeded in putting Hess to sleep. The fact that Hess repeatedly shirked duties the others had to bear and received other preferential treatment because of his illness, irked the other prisoners and earned him the title of "His imprisoned Lordship" by the admirals.

Hess was also unique among the prisoners in that, as a matter of dignity, he refused all visitors for more than twenty years, finally consenting to see his long-since adult son and wife in 1969 after suffering from a perforated ulcer that required his treatment at a hospital outside the prison. Fearing for his mental health, now that he was the sole remaining inmate, and that his death was imminent, the prison directors agreed to slacken most of the remaining regulations, moving Hess to the more spacious former chapel space, giving him a water heater to allow the making of tea or coffee when he liked, and permanently unlocking his cell so that he could freely access the prison's bathing facilities and library.

Hess was frequently moved from room to room every night for security reasons. He was often taken to BMH (British Military Hospital) not far from Spandau prison where the entire second floor of the hospital was blocked off for him. He continued to be under heavy guard while in hospital. Ward security was provided by soldiers including Royal Military Police (RMP) Close Protection personnel. External security was provided by one of the British infantry battalions then stationed in Berlin. On some unusual occasions, the Russians relaxed their strict regulations; during these times Hess was allowed to spend extra time in the prison garden, and one of the warders from the superpowers took Hess outside the prison for a stroll and sometimes dinner.[9]


To say Hess was "tortured" is a smack in the face / piss on the grave of anyone who ever was tortured in horrible conditions, like say the 7+ million people Hess' comrades snuffed out.

Yea, I agree. That doesn't sound like torture.

However, the conspiracy theory behind his death is fascinating. If anything, it has a shred of merit for him being an old bastard.

Not that that's saying much towards confirming it, but it's a plausible theory regardless.

That's specifically how Hess was treated toward the end of his sentence, which is a lot different from how it was in the years immediately after the war.

[Threeman]

He should have been sent to prison at all. Period.

[Exploited Crisis]

Yea, I agree. That doesn't sound like torture.

However, the conspiracy theory behind his death is fascinating. If anything, it has a shred of merit for him being an old bastard.

Not that that's saying much towards confirming it, but it's a plausible theory regardless.

That's specifically how Hess was treated toward the end of his sentence, which is a lot different from how it was in the years immediately after the war.

In the years after the war he was still given deferential treatment (could refuse to do labor he felt "beneath him")'and was the prima donna of the Spandau Seven, feigned illnesses or not.

Compared to the average prisoner the Nazis or the Japanese put in labor / death camps, Hess was stowed in the goddamn Hyatt Regency.

[The Conez Imperium]

Hess is a nutter. All you have to do to confirm your opinion is to watch the closing scene of Triumph of Will.

I don't have the heart to advocate for death or torture so the Spandau prison appears appropriate. It seems like talking about Speer would be a more controversial topic for debate with his image as the "good nazi"

"Good Nazi" or not, Speer was pretty deeply involved with the use of forced labor. I find him weirdly likable, but still think a prison sentence was justified because of the extent of the forced labor program and Speer's use of it.

With Hess, one could debate whether he belonged in prison or a mental institution.

^ I think that is the true question of the thread.

[Exploited Crisis]

"Good Nazi" or not, Speer was pretty deeply involved with the use of forced labor. I find him weirdly likable, but still think a prison sentence was justified because of the extent of the forced labor program and Speer's use of it.

With Hess, one could debate whether he belonged in prison or a mental institution.

^ I think that is the true question of the thread.

I forget which of the Spandau Seven faked mental illness right up until the middle of the Nuremberg trials, but I'm pretty sure they were all psychologically examined and determined fit for trial and imprisonment. The Russians wanted Hess executed outright. Instead, he got the spa treatment of all the Spandau Seven. Probably better that he deserved.

[Memell]

The entirety of the Nuremberg trials were legally null and void.

/thread

[Trotskylvania]

Hess is a nutter. All you have to do to confirm your opinion is to watch the closing scene of Triumph of Will.

I don't have the heart to advocate for death or torture so the Spandau prison appears appropriate. It seems like talking about Speer would be a more controversial topic for debate with his image as the "good nazi"

"Good Nazi" or not, Speer was pretty deeply involved with the use of forced labor. I find him weirdly likable, but still think a prison sentence was justified because of the extent of the forced labor program and Speer's use of it.

With Hess, one could debate whether he belonged in prison or a mental institution.

Speer's big dramatic show of contrition spared him the noose, but it was painfully contrived. The man was no less guilty than anyone else there of crimes against humanity. The man responsible for meeting his labor quotas was executed, but Speer escaped with a mere 20 years.

We decided superior orders didn't excuse it when Fritz Sauckel was hanged for his role in the Nazi forced labor system. Albert Speer was the man giving those superior orders, and should bear greater legal and moral responsibility.

[Trotskylvania]

The entirety of the Nuremberg trials were legally null and void.

/thread

Every single man hanged at Nuremberg were guilty of crimes under Germany's own legal code that would have earned them the noose. With the German nation-state no longer existing, it fell upon the Allies to punish these men for their crimes against the German people, and against the people of other nations.

The only alternative to the due process of law would be the summary liquidation of the ruling class of the Nazi party-state.

[Exploited Crisis]

The entirety of the Nuremberg trials were legally null and void.

/thread

Nope.

[USS Monitor]

That's specifically how Hess was treated toward the end of his sentence, which is a lot different from how it was in the years immediately after the war.

In the years after the war he was still given deferential treatment (could refuse to do labor he felt "beneath him")'and was the prima donna of the Spandau Seven, feigned illnesses or not.

Compared to the average prisoner the Nazis or the Japanese put in labor / death camps, Hess was stowed in the goddamn Hyatt Regency.

The conditions in Nazi camps are part of what got Nazis sent to Spandau in the first place. Saying the conditions were better than Nazi camps doesn't prove they were humane. Speer got 20 years, Sauckel got executed, and a bunch of SS guys got executed or sent to prison for the conditions in the Nazi camps. That's not a useful standard.

[USS Monitor]

"Good Nazi" or not, Speer was pretty deeply involved with the use of forced labor. I find him weirdly likable, but still think a prison sentence was justified because of the extent of the forced labor program and Speer's use of it.

With Hess, one could debate whether he belonged in prison or a mental institution.

Speer's big dramatic show of contrition spared him the noose, but it was painfully contrived. The man was no less guilty than anyone else there of crimes against humanity. The man responsible for meeting his labor quotas was executed, but Speer escaped with a mere 20 years.

We decided superior orders didn't excuse it when Fritz Sauckel was hanged for his role in the Nazi forced labor system. Albert Speer was the man giving those superior orders, and should bear greater legal and moral responsibility.

Who was making the decisions about the methods used to meet those quotas, though? I'll admit that part of Sauckel's problem was just not doing as good a job as Speer did of defending himself in court.