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Battle of Kursk: turning point?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What is the turning point of WW2?

The Lend-Lease Act
16
11%
The Battle of Moscow
13
9%
The US entry into the war
31
20%
The Battles of El Alamein
9
6%
The Battle of Stalingrad
65
43%
The Battle of Kursk
8
5%
The Invasion of Italy
1
1%
The Invasion of Normandy
7
5%
Operation Bagration
2
1%
 
Total votes : 152

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Trotskylvania
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Battle of Kursk: turning point?

Postby Trotskylvania » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:24 pm

Since it's the anniversary of perhaps the largest single battle in human history, I thought it fitting to open up a discussion on the importance of the Battle of Kursk.

The major battles of the Eastern Front are usually forgotten in the West in discussing the war. If they are recalled at all, Stalingrad, Kursk and maybe Moscow are mentioned. Usually they are referenced as some sort of defining "turning point" of the course of the war, a decisive battle whose outcome shifted the fortunes of the war.

Kursk is often selected as the turning point. The opening phase of the battle, Operation Citadel, was the last German offensive. After the battle, they would be limited to local counterattacks and occasional counterstrokes against a Soviet Army that was constantly on the offensive, not able to even approach retaking the strategic initiative in the war.

I do not think this is the case. I contend that Germany had already lost before the first panzers rolled into battle at Kursk, that the contest had already been decided unbeknownst to its participants, and the outcome at Kursk is merely demonstrative of the fact that the Soviets were going to win the war.

So let's set the stage. The German Sixth Army has been ground to dust in Stalingrad. The Soviet counteroffensives in Operations Uranus, Mars, and Saturn had thrown Army Group South out of the Caucasus, inflicting catastrophic losses to the Axis, Germans and allies alike. When the Soviet offensives paused from exhaustion, a counterstroke in the south pushed the southern flank of the Soviet lines back in the 3rd Battle of Kharkov. The spring rasputitsa hit, turned the country into a muddy quagmire, and thus the battle lines were frozen in place through the spring.

A large salient, or bulge, juts out from Soviet held territory around the city of Kursk, 250 km from north to south, and 160 kilometers from east to west. The Oberkommado der Heer (High Command of the Army) wished to shorten German lines by destroying the Kursk salient. With Hitler's go-ahead, planning began in earnest for Operation Citadel in April.

This choice was obvious. So obvious that the Soviet military command, Stavka, were aware of German intentions even without access to decrypted German wire traffic. The choice to fight it out with the Soviet military at Kursk demonstrated the profound weakness of the strategic sense of the Heer. While they had a competent command of tactical operations (in the East, usually corps/division size or below), their understanding of the larger picture of the whole war, the strategic level, was poorly lacking.

The Soviets thus turned the Kursk salient into a fortress of men and arms while the Germans built up their forces for the attack. The determination was to stop German breakthroughs from occurring, thus preventing any encirclements or major shifts in the frontlines, defeating their attacks before they could truly become dangerous.

The Germans failed to conceal their buildup both strategically, via the comprimised nature of their wireless networks, as well as operationally. This could only ensure that the defender would set the field in their favor. An elementary military notion, first codified by Sun Tzu, is to not fight the enemy on his terms; to avoid where he is strong and attack where he is weak.

The only real objective of Operation Citadel was, for all intents and purposes, a short-sighted tactical objective. They wished to shorten the lines to economize their forces. They showed very little appreciation for what Soviet military theorists termed "the operational art", the level of doctrine that links that tactical scale with the strategic scale. Put simply, the operational art is how you string together tactical situations, both victories and defeats, to create the conditions for strategic victory.

By contrast with the German's objectives, the Soviets had come to understand the operational art through the painful lessons of 1941 and 1942, and had begun to take the theories of revolutionary military leaders of the 30s like Marshall Tukhevasky, the "deep battle" doctrine, and employ it successfully in a real war against the greatest enemy they had ever faced.

The Soviets had an operational plan for the Kursk salient. Fortress Kursk would be a rock on which the German military would expend itself, leaving it vulnerable to planned counterstrokes in adjacent sectors. Forces would be held in reserve; over a million men, thousands of tanks and assault guns, tens of thousands of artillery pieces, for the opportune moment to capitalize on the situation. The strategic goal was to cripple the ability of the Wehrmacht to hold the initiative, and begin ejecting them from the Soviet Union.

Soviet planners thus had clear plans on the tactical, operational and strategic levels at Kursk, and a realistic appraisal of the capabilities of their forces. Gone was Stalin's pompous attitude of 42, where counteroffensives were imagined to be all but war deciding. Kursk had modestly ambitious goals, realistically calculated based on the somewhat stochastic nature of the present Soviet military.

Thus, when the German offensives began on 5 July 1943, the attacking forces of Army Group Center, attacking the north of the Kursk salient near Ponyri, and the forces of Army Group South, attacking the south of the salient near Belgorod, ran into a fortress of minefields, bunkers, anti-tank guns and trenches filled with soldiers. Concentric rings of defense, layered all the way from the front-line to the city of Kursk itself, ensured a hard-fought battle that would expend men, equipment and resources for precious little gain. In nearly two weeks of constant offensive action, the Wehrmacht made very little progress.

In the north, General of the Army Konstantin Rokossovvsky utterly frustrated German efforts, holding to a maximum of 8 to 12 kilometers. Field Marshal Manstein's forces in the south fared better, penetrating to a max of 35 kilometers. This provoked Zhukov, the Stavka representative in charge of the overal battle, to make a blunder in reinforcing the Voronezh front. He committed one of the best formations available to the Soviets, the 5th Guards Tank Army (a corps sized unit, as the Soviets had deleted the corps level from organizations to simplify command and control after the disasters of 41). The 5th Guards Tank Army would charge head long into the II SS Panzer Corps near the town of Prokhorovka. This wasteful head to head battle, the largest direct tank engagement of the war, stopped the already blunted momentum of the SS Panzer Corps, but at significant cost to the Soviets.

By 16 July, the OKH and Hitler have given up on the Operation Citadel. More than just the men lost, over 58,000 casualties, many irretrievable, hundreds of tanks considered total losses, and hundreds more mission-killed, and the combat readiness of the Wehrmacht's best formations smashed, for a few kilometers of ground. Why the Soviets suffered high casualties as well, they had a far greater ability to sustain losses at this period. Remember how I talked about all those forces kept in reserve? The Soviets bring them into action. Soviet counteroffensives in the North and South begin on the 12, starting at a low tempo to halt reinforcement of the Citadel spearheads, and gaining tempo to further push the Germans back. Over nearly the next six weeks, the Soviets maul the German army along a 2,000km frontier, piling on irretrievable losses in men and material that the Germans cannot afford to lose.

In the period after Kursk, the Soviet army would be constantly on the offensive. This outcome, I contend, is not indicative of a turning point. It's indicative of a war that had already been decisively won doctrinally and logistically. The Soviets had more men and materiel to commit, even after the horrific losses inflicted in the opening stages of the war. And even while in near constant battle, they improved the organization and training of their military, while the quality of the Wehrmacht had already reached its high water mark and was continuing to deteriorate as the war progressed. The fact that the Soviets could sustain such horrific casualties in Kursk and continue unbroken chains of offensives, culminating 1 year later in Operation Bagration, which destroyed Army Group Center and broke the back of the Wehrmacht, demonstrates this. Wars are not CoD matches; K:D ratios do not determine the victor.

In summary, the outcome of the Battle of Kursk wasn't a turning point in the war; it was the battle that made it clear that the German's wouldn't just lose the war, it would mean unconditional surrender and the destruction of the Nazi regime. The Germans through their best at Kursk and failed. Even after this beating, the Soviets still had sufficient strength in reserve to progressively eject the invaders, all the way back to Berlin.
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Postby United Dependencies » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:41 pm

I'm actually going to jump a little earlier than your poll options and say that it was the failure of Germany to knock Britain out of the war before invading Russia.

edit: But to get back on topic, I find myself gaining a greater respect for Russian war planners in the later half of the second world war and the early cold war.

Was this kind of leadership always present? Was it simply repressed by the previous imperial government or was it the imperial governments other inefficiencies that caused the army to perform poorly?
Last edited by United Dependencies on Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The United Colonies of Earth
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Postby The United Colonies of Earth » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:59 pm

I dunno.
United Dependencies' point seems like a good idea. Britain's survival left a foothold for transatlantic reconquista, while the resilient eastern giant with a Russian heart would be able to mobilize its' resources to drown the Germans in a vast land they couldn't easily take. Hopefully anyway.
But then again the British still had the Mediterranean and could possibly mount an assault from there (?), so maybe the Isles weren't as important.
I thought the Battle of Moscow was pretty impressive. Hitler and Stalin were gunning for it and ultimately they couldn't reach it because of the heavy defense there. Same for Stalingrad. Wasn't an entire Army Group annihilated there, at what (I don't remember...) was the furthest east the Germans had reached?
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:01 pm

United Dependencies wrote:I'm actually going to jump a little earlier than your poll options and say that it was the failure of Germany to knock Britain out of the war before invading Russia.

edit: But to get back on topic, I find myself gaining a greater respect for Russian war planners in the later half of the second world war and the early cold war.

Was this kind of leadership always present? Was it simply repressed by the previous imperial government or was it the imperial governments other inefficiencies that caused the army to perform poorly?


Well I'd hazard a guess (based on my own amateur knowledge) was that the planning wasn't present until the mid-to-late-war period because predominant military thinking at that time was more archaic than what the Germans were utilizing. Kursk was more or less a standard attrition battle to break the German offensive but Operation Bagration was an accurate use of German Blitzkrieg combine arms warfare but on a vastly grander scale.

Although for the most part, there were other inefficiencies in the Soviet Army prior to Kursk that were simultaneously addressed, including inferior weaponry (for the most part anyway) as well as a lack of competent officers and strategic planners thanks to Stalin's purges.
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:35 pm

United Dependencies wrote:I'm actually going to jump a little earlier than your poll options and say that it was the failure of Germany to knock Britain out of the war before invading Russia.

edit: But to get back on topic, I find myself gaining a greater respect for Russian war planners in the later half of the second world war and the early cold war.

Was this kind of leadership always present? Was it simply repressed by the previous imperial government or was it the imperial governments other inefficiencies that caused the army to perform poorly?

Keep in mind that the Soviet leadership would've likely performed much better in the early parts of Operation Barbarossa without the purges.

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Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:35 pm

I would say Stalingrad was the turning point. Oh and wikipedia agrees with me.yay
It was the first time the German command would be defeated on a large scale. To add insult to injury it was a personal failure of Hitler's. When the Germans were trapped in there Hitler ordered that they fight to the last man instead of try a breakout scenario.

It was the first in a long series of Hitler's failures as a military leader, believing his forces should never retreat destroyed the army group and all of it's valuable equipment. And it wasn't a quick battle either, it was drawn out and painful for everyone involved.

Course I wouldn't say it's the reason the Germans lost the war overall. That was mostly down to logistics, with American industry behind the allies it was just a matter of holding the Germans in a multiple front war and bombing their production facilities. And with Britain as a springboard into Europe the outcome was pretty heavily in the allies favour.
It also helped that the German navy was locked up in dockyards, had they had stronger control of the seas earlier in the war the result could have been very different. Lets not forget the massive losses the U-boats inflicted on allied shipping.

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Postby Genivaria » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:39 pm

As far as turning points though in regards to the European theater we should remember that Germany lost about 10x the amount of men on the Eastern Front than any other front in the war.
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:42 pm

Mad hatters in jeans wrote:I would say Stalingrad was the turning point. Oh and wikipedia agrees with me.yay
It was the first time the German command would be defeated on a large scale. To add insult to injury it was a personal failure of Hitler's. When the Germans were trapped in there Hitler ordered that they fight to the last man instead of try a breakout scenario.

It was the first in a long series of Hitler's failures as a military leader, believing his forces should never retreat destroyed the army group and all of it's valuable equipment. And it wasn't a quick battle either, it was drawn out and painful for everyone involved.

Course I wouldn't say it's the reason the Germans lost the war overall. That was mostly down to logistics, with American industry behind the allies it was just a matter of holding the Germans in a multiple front war and bombing their production facilities. And with Britain as a springboard into Europe the outcome was pretty heavily in the allies favour.
It also helped that the German navy was locked up in dockyards, had they had stronger control of the seas earlier in the war the result could have been very different. Lets not forget the massive losses the U-boats inflicted on allied shipping.

Well it was hardly Hitler's first military mistake but it was certainly the first of his major blunders that visibly harmed Germany's chances.
Another was his decision to abandon the strategy of trapping entire Soviet armies in Panzer pincers out of impatience, instead he moved to a strategy of attrition which Germany could never win against the Soviets.

OH! And of course the completely idiotic decision to stall the advance on Moscow in favor of splitting a group off to take Stalingrad which would be a political/symbolic victory at best.
And I don't consider the oil fields there to be a valid reason because he'd have a much easier time seizing the fields in the Middle East.
Last edited by Genivaria on Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:44 pm

As soon as Lend-Lease was extended to the SovUnion, Germany was doomed.
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:47 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:As soon as Lend-Lease was extended to the SovUnion, Germany was doomed.

Soviet: We have many men but no guns.
American: We have many guns but no men.....hmmmm
Germany: I don't like where this is going.

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Postby Flarbinia » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:51 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:As soon as Lend-Lease was extended to the SovUnion, Germany was doomed.

The Soviet Union would have won the war without American assistance, but Lend-Lease did speed up the process.

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Postby Imperial Idaho » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:56 pm

I'd say Stalingrad, as after the Soviet victory they won at all after that, where since the start of the war it was German victory after victory, it was now Soviet victory after Victory on the east, and it made Hitler put more effort into the east instead of the west and of course next thing you know the USA was dropping atomic bombs on the Empire of Japan
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:56 pm

Genivaria wrote:Soviet: We have many men but no guns.
American: We have many guns but no men.....hmmmm
Germany: I don't like where this is going.

American trucks are glorious hero of Soviet Union.
Flarbinia wrote:The Soviet Union would have won the war without American assistance, but Lend-Lease did speed up the process.

I find that questionable, honestly. Had the SovUnion benefited neither from American intervention in the war nor Lend-Lease, it's doubtful that they could've sustained the logistics needed to fuel their great military machine at the same level it did.
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:59 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Soviet: We have many men but no guns.
American: We have many guns but no men.....hmmmm
Germany: I don't like where this is going.

American trucks are glorious hero of Soviet Union.
Flarbinia wrote:The Soviet Union would have won the war without American assistance, but Lend-Lease did speed up the process.

I find that questionable, honestly. Had the SovUnion benefited neither from American intervention in the war nor Lend-Lease, it's doubtful that they could've sustained the logistics needed to fuel their great military machine at the same level it did.

Granted there are several things the Germans could've done better.
Like not being fucking evil and committing wholesale genocide against the Soviet civilian populace, way to rally your enemies against you numbnuts.

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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:01 pm

A lot of the options are too late. By then the allies were winning.
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:03 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:A lot of the options are too late. By then the allies were winning.

At the point that Operation Barbarossa began the Germans were indisputably winning the war in Europe.
And most of the Operation was very successful for the Germans, but they failed in key areas and completely underestimated the Soviet resolve and reserves.

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Postby Southerly Gentleman » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:15 pm

Of all the options available, people are actually saying the Lend-Lease Act was the turning point of WW2??
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:24 pm

Southerly Gentleman wrote:Of all the options available, people are actually saying the Lend-Lease Act was the turning point of WW2??

Logistics are generally the most important part of modern-era campaigns.
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Postby Trotskylvania » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:43 pm

United Dependencies wrote:I'm actually going to jump a little earlier than your poll options and say that it was the failure of Germany to knock Britain out of the war before invading Russia.

edit: But to get back on topic, I find myself gaining a greater respect for Russian war planners in the later half of the second world war and the early cold war.

Was this kind of leadership always present? Was it simply repressed by the previous imperial government or was it the imperial governments other inefficiencies that caused the army to perform poorly?

That was definitely an omission on my part, though I would note that Lend-Lease Act was prior to Barbarossa.

Imperial Russia had a very impressive military tradition dating back to Peter the Great. Russia's poor showing in WW1 was probably an element of how arthritic the Tsarist regime had become, as well as some definite lucky breaks by the Germans like the Battle of Tannenberg. The biggest problem was a very real perception of injustice that sapped morale. The Imperial Russian Army was somewhat hidebound and aristocratic, and the very real perception was that millions were dying for the aristocrats' ambitions, who didn't even have the decency to be winning for all the blood and treasure being spilled.

But many of the top Soviet commanders had been junior officers in the Tsarist Army in WW1, had learned from their generals, in the Russian military academies, and gained practical experience in the Russian Civil War, which gave them a greater appreciation for the nature of modern manuever war than many of their German, French or British counterparts. This is why they tended to lead the way in tank doctrine in the interwar, and some of that rubbed off in Germany, who secretly cooperated with the Soviets in the 20s and early 30s to make an end-run around the Versailles treaty restrictions.
The United Colonies of Earth wrote:I dunno.
United Dependencies' point seems like a good idea. Britain's survival left a foothold for transatlantic reconquista, while the resilient eastern giant with a Russian heart would be able to mobilize its' resources to drown the Germans in a vast land they couldn't easily take. Hopefully anyway.
But then again the British still had the Mediterranean and could possibly mount an assault from there (?), so maybe the Isles weren't as important.
I thought the Battle of Moscow was pretty impressive. Hitler and Stalin were gunning for it and ultimately they couldn't reach it because of the heavy defense there. Same for Stalingrad. Wasn't an entire Army Group annihilated there, at what (I don't remember...) was the furthest east the Germans had reached?

Yeah. US Army historian David Glantz characterized the Battle of Moscow as the moment which demonstrated that Germans could not hope to win the war except by a long, protracted struggle, and the ambitions of Operation Barbarossa had failed. The biggest problem was simply logistical; even with the poor shape of the Soviet Army after the surprise attack on the frontier, and the annihilation of many mobilizing reservists, the battered remnants of the Red Army held Moscow because there simply wasn't enough manpower, rolling stock or trucks available to move war materiel over that much war devastated terrain.

I touched on Stalingrad; it was the Sixth Army that was annihilated there; though there was a mismatch in unit sizes between the Soviet and German Armies. German field armies were similar in size to Soviet fronts (ostensibly their equivalent to army groups) on many occaisions; most Soviet armies, espescially tank armies, were closer to corps size. The tank and mechanized corps that were the backbone of Soviet mobile forces were "brigade buckets" around the same size as a German division.
Costa Fierro wrote:Well I'd hazard a guess (based on my own amateur knowledge) was that the planning wasn't present until the mid-to-late-war period because predominant military thinking at that time was more archaic than what the Germans were utilizing. Kursk was more or less a standard attrition battle to break the German offensive but Operation Bagration was an accurate use of German Blitzkrieg combine arms warfare but on a vastly grander scale.

Although for the most part, there were other inefficiencies in the Soviet Army prior to Kursk that were simultaneously addressed, including inferior weaponry (for the most part anyway) as well as a lack of competent officers and strategic planners thanks to Stalin's purges.

There was a lot of internal conflict in 41 and 42. The men in charge in 41 were part of Stalin's old clique from the Civil War. For the most part, they were artillery men who had successfully suppressed their rivals, who had vague connections to Trotsky during his time as military commissar, and favored tanks and deep battle. Others like Zhukov, Vasilevsky, Konev, etc., had survived the purges and found their star ascendant, though they had obvious problems with educating and training the many relatively green officers who had to step into very big shoes due to the ravaged state of the army, both from lingering effects from the purges as well as the war.

Blitzkrieg is sort of a misnomer; it was something the British press coined; the German military simply called it manuever war, and for them it was an extension of pre-WW1 manuever war doctrine designed to overcome the stalemates that had happened in WW1. The tactical doctrine was simple; breakthrough, getin the enemy's rear, encircle enemy forces, and engage in battles of annihilation with your less mobile infantry forces.

Most of the German Army were foot mobile infantry, with few trucks, mostly relying on horses for logistical support wherever trains couldn't be found. Soviet deep operations was a different beast. Whereas German doctrine was Clausewitzian, the deep operations shunned battles of annihilation; the goal was to induce the enemy to comply with operational objectives by removing the means or will to resist. It's the difference between a noose and a bulldozer. When encirclement was achieved, the Soviets preferred to let enemy concentrations wither under siege than directly reduce them, conserving operational tempo.
Mad hatters in jeans wrote:I would say Stalingrad was the turning point. Oh and wikipedia agrees with me.yay
It was the first time the German command would be defeated on a large scale. To add insult to injury it was a personal failure of Hitler's. When the Germans were trapped in there Hitler ordered that they fight to the last man instead of try a breakout scenario.

It was the first in a long series of Hitler's failures as a military leader, believing his forces should never retreat destroyed the army group and all of it's valuable equipment. And it wasn't a quick battle either, it was drawn out and painful for everyone involved.

Course I wouldn't say it's the reason the Germans lost the war overall. That was mostly down to logistics, with American industry behind the allies it was just a matter of holding the Germans in a multiple front war and bombing their production facilities. And with Britain as a springboard into Europe the outcome was pretty heavily in the allies favour.
It also helped that the German navy was locked up in dockyards, had they had stronger control of the seas earlier in the war the result could have been very different. Lets not forget the massive losses the U-boats inflicted on allied shipping.

If I had to pick any one moment where the outcome became clear, it would be Stalingrad. After Stalingrad, there was no question that the Germans could not triumph in the Soviet Union; they didn't have the means to force its surrender, and the population was united behind the project of expelling the invader.

But I disagree that Hitler made a mistake in ordering Sixth Army to hunker down. Had they tried to evacuate or break out during Operation Uranus, they would have left defensible positions and cover against the winter weather for a pell mell retreat across the Steppes. They'd get swept up by Soviet forces, and they wouldn't have the organizational means to meet these attacks effectively. They'd have to abandon equipment and resources that they didn't have the transport capacity to carry, and they might not have had the fuel necessary to even attempt it. Sitting tight and waiting for relief was the wiser choice, but the Soviets also worked very hard to make sure relief couldn't come. The real mistake was trying to keep them supplied via airdrop; it wrecked so much of the Luftwaffe's operational ability, both in transports, bombers and fighters, in a foolhardy attempt. They should have just written Sixth Army off, and focus on keeping the luftwaffe intact to contest air superiority in other sectors.
Genivaria wrote:Well it was hardly Hitler's first military mistake but it was certainly the first of his major blunders that visibly harmed Germany's chances.
Another was his decision to abandon the strategy of trapping entire Soviet armies in Panzer pincers out of impatience, instead he moved to a strategy of attrition which Germany could never win against the Soviets.

OH! And of course the completely idiotic decision to stall the advance on Moscow in favor of splitting a group off to take Stalingrad which would be a political/symbolic victory at best.
And I don't consider the oil fields there to be a valid reason because he'd have a much easier time seizing the fields in the Middle East.

This is another oft quoted mistake that isn't really a mistake.

I think you might be confusing two separate operations here. In 1941, Hitler made the correct decision in overruling his general staff to pause advance on Moscow to take Kiev, and the Ukraine, and destroy the large concentrations of Soviet forces there. The OKH's attempt to push straight on moscow would have left a nearly 1000km flank vulnerable to counterattack by the South-West Front, which could have inflicted severe, perhaps even catastrophic damage on Army Group Center now so thoroughly overextended. Furthermore, Hitler was correct to seek to deny the resources and industry in the area, a sizeable fraction of the Soviet GDP, to the Soviet war effort.

But that's 1941. In 1942, after the defeat in the Battle of Moscow, Hitler returned to his original industrial war strategy. Taking the Caucasus under Fall Blau was meant to further destroy Soviet warmaking, and deny the oil resources there to the Soviet war effort (any ideas of actually using the oil were secondary as well as completely fancifle. They wouldn't be able to exploit them under those conditions.)

It was partly because it was Stalin's city, but the simple fact is that the Volga River is a huge obstacle, and seizing Stalingrad is necessary to maintaining a defensible line as well as pushing beyond it. Without that, they couldn't keep their flanks secure in the drive on Baku. There was at least the elements of strategy here; Moscow was much more heavily garrisoned now, so pushing on Moscow again would be unwise without further crippling the Soviets.) But they underestimated the logistical cost, and greatly underestimate the Soviet's ability to raise new formations and equip them.
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:49 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The first Galactic Republic wrote:A lot of the options are too late. By then the allies were winning.

At the point that Operation Barbarossa began the Germans were indisputably winning the war in Europe.
And most of the Operation was very successful for the Germans, but they failed in key areas and completely underestimated the Soviet resolve and reserves.

Most of the options are after that.
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Postby Elepis » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:16 am

Kursk smashed the german army in the East and paved the way for the advance on Berlin withing 2 years. However I would say the turning point would be as soon as the first Panzer's crossed the Bug River in the Soviet occupied Poland.
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Postby United States of Atheism » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:41 am

American entry into the war. If the sleeping giant wasn't awoken sir, then Moscow would of fallen. The commies could not fight against the Nazis, it was a meatgrinder until the soviets ran out of troops. The stupid commies even purged their armies. Tccccchhh, historical revisionists think that the soviets accomplished shit, without Dday they would of lost.
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Postby Kisinger » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:29 am

The Battle of Kursk is arguably one of the turning points of the War, more than likely the one to seal the lid on the war in favour of the Allies (at least in Europe).


United States of Atheism wrote:American entry into the war. If the sleeping giant wasn't awoken sir, then Moscow would of fallen.
While the Lend Lease programs did help, Russians holding Moscow was a guarantee, with major troop formations already in the area by the time of the German arrival.


The commies could not fight against the Nazis, it was a meatgrinder until the soviets ran out of troops.
The Soviets could fight against the Germans, and did for four years, I believe you are looking for the term 'win' because any nation can fight but few know how to or can win one. Soviets never ran out of troops, in fact they had enough troops to go around and only needed equipment(only during the early to mid stages of the war).

The stupid commies even purged their armies.
That was before the war when the Great Purge happened, unless you mean Soviet Generals getting executed for incompetence or being sent off to Gulags in Siberia for the same 'offense'

Tccccchhh, historical revisionists think that the soviets accomplished shit, without Dday they would of lost.
Soviets accomplished quite a bit by the time of D-Day, they had acquired strategic initiative, pushed the Germans out of the Soviet Union proper and were well on their way to pushing the Germans all the way to Berlin(which they did the following year and pushed farther in fact).
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Postby New Raffica » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:32 am

European Theatre: Battle of Stalingrad. It's not really a strategic turning point per say, but a moral turning point. This showed that the Soviets were not ready to fall as everyone had thought they would. The people began to believe in themselves again, and believed that the German war machine could be stopped. From a German point of view, this was devastating in the fact that the war would never be the same for them following this defeat.

Pacific Theatre: U.S entry into the war. This one is kinda obvious. Japan had been dominating the Pacific until the States joined. Japan had severely underestimated the U.S, and paid for it.

Also I don't know how the lend-lease really counts as a "turning point" considering it went on for the whole war
Last edited by New Raffica on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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New Raffica
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Postby New Raffica » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:33 am

United States of Atheism wrote: Tccccchhh, historical revisionists think that the soviets accomplished shit, without Dday they would of lost.


I don't know where you're getting your facts from, the Soviets accomplished quite a lot in fact.
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