Child Abuse/Corporal Punishment Discussion

[Europe and Oceania]

What Science Says About Using Physical Force To Punish A Child

Following the news that Minnesota Vikings running back Adrian Peterson reportedly used a tree branch to hit his 4-year-old son (and the later accusation that he injured another 4-year-old son), the acceptability of physical punishment has been a topic of national conversations.

Some Internet commenters and even other athletes have defended Peterson — many arguing, “I was spanked and I turned out OK!” Others admit they’re in support of spanking, but recognize Peterson’s behavior as abuse.

A poll conducted by The Huffington Post and YouGov found that 81 percent of 1,000 adults polled believe spanking with a hand should be legal, and almost half think it’s an effective form of punishment.

Indeed, whether the respondents’ own parents used corporal punishment made a big difference in their views about the legality of spanking. Eighty-eight percent of those whose parents used corporal punishment, but only 69 percent of those whose parents did not, said spanking with the hand should be legal. Peterson has justified his behavior by saying he believes he is successful because of the way his parents disciplined him.

However, there is overwhelming evidence that physical punishment is both ineffective and harmful to child development. Former HuffPost Senior Columnist Lisa Belkin has argued that the word “debate” should be left out of the spanking conversation, because the science against it is so clearly one-sided.

“There aren’t two sides. There is a preponderance of fact, and there are people who find it inconvenient to accept those facts,” Belkin wrote in a 2012 column.

Psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff has spearheaded multiple studies on the topic, all of which have supported her 2002 conclusion that it has vast negative effects. At the time, Gershoff had analyzed more than 80 studies and found there was a “strong correlation” between corporal punishment and negative behaviors (including increased aggression and antisocial behavior).

Here’s a breakdown of what science has to say:

Physical punishment makes kids more aggressive.
Researchers from Tulane University found that children who are spanked frequently at age 3 are more likely to show aggressive behavior by the time they’re 5 than kids who are not.

Physical punishment doesn’t actually work (even if it appears to).
Yes, spanking may stop problematic behavior, says Sandra Graham-Bermann, Ph.D., a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan, but that’s because the child is afraid. In the long term, physical punishment will only make kids’ behavior worse.

Reporting on several studies on the topic for CNN, Sarah Kovac wrote, “The sad irony is that the more you physically punish your kids for their lack of self-control, the less they have. They learn how to be controlled by external forces (parents, teachers, bosses), but when the boss isn’t looking, then what?”

Physical punishment encourages kids to continue the cycle of abuse.
A 2011 study published in Child Abuse and Neglect confirmed that physical punishment is cyclical — children who are hit are more likely to use the action to solve problems with their peers and siblings.

Later on, they’re at a higher risk for delinquency and criminal behavior, according to a 2013 article, “Spanking and Child Development: We Know Enough Now to Stop Hitting Our Children,” also by Gershoff.

The negative effects of physical punishment are colossal, well into adulthood.
A 2012 study published in the journal Pediatrics found that “harsh physical punishment was associated with increased odds of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug abuse/dependence, and several personality disorders.”

A review published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal that same year analyzed 20 years of data and came to similar conclusions regarding those risks — and also found that spanking yields no positive outcome.

Spanking actually alters kids’ brains.
A 2009 study concluded that children who were frequently spanked (defined as at least once a month for more than three years) “had less gray matter in certain areas of the prefrontal cortex that have been linked to depression, addiction and other mental health disorders.”

According to CNN, another study — also looking at how corporal punishment affects the brain — found that children who receive it have a decrease in cognitive ability, compared with other kids.

The bottom line:
Stacy Drury, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral science at Tulane University, told the New Republic, “The goal of discipline, which actually comes from the Latin root meaning ‘to teach,’ is to change behavior. And physical discipline across many, many, many studies is ineffective at changing behavior and it’s ineffective for many reasons ... corporal punishment actually teaches children is that aggression is an acceptable method of problem solving.”

The HuffPost/YouGov poll was conducted Sept. 15-17 among 1,000 U.S. adults using a sample selected from YouGov’s opt-in online panel to match the demographics and other characteristics of the adult U.S. population. Factors considered include age, race, gender, education, employment, income, marital status, number of children, voter registration, time and location of Internet access, interest in politics, religion and church attendance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/1 ... 31962.html


Another article with studies why "corporal punishment" doesn't work:

Why Physical Punishment Does Not Work

“I’m sick and tired of violence… I’m tired of war and conflict in the world. I’m tired of shooting. I’m tired of hatred. I’m tired of selfishness. I’m tired of evil. I’m not going to use violence no matter who says it!”

– Martin Luther King, Jr.

“Parents… have come to realize that children can be well behaved, cooperative, and polite without ever having been punished physically.”

– Benjamin Spock

Why Physical Punishment Does Not Work—And the Best Alternatives

In the last several newsletters, we have focused on the universal built-in feelings with which all human beings are born. We described how the work of Darwin, Tomkins, Ekman, and others have shown that human babies are born with various responses to stimuli. These we call feelings: interest, enjoyment, surprise, distress, anger, fear, shame, disgust, and dissmell [reaction to noxious odors].

As we get older, these responses combine with experience to form our more complex emotional life. We discussed what feelings are, how they work, and why they are important – after all, feelings cause behaviors!

We are now in a position to discuss the important issue of physical punishment – because physical punishment of a child stirs up precisely the feelings one does not want. In general, one wants to elicit interest and enjoyment. Physical punishment stirs up distress, anger, fear, and shame.


Overview of Physical Punishment

Physical punishment is a major public health problem in this country. Approximately 60% of adults still approve of physical punishment, despite compelling evidence that it does not work, it makes things worse, and there are effective alternatives.

Physical punishment involves the use of physical force with the intention of causing the child to experience bodily pain or discomfort so as to correct or punish the child’s behavior. This includes spanking, hitting, pinching, paddling, whipping, slapping, and so on.

Spanking is a euphemism for hitting. One is not permitted to hit one’s spouse or a stranger; these actions are considered assault and battery. Why in the world should one be permitted to hit a smaller and even more vulnerable child?

Studies show that children who are hit identify with the aggressor and are more likely to become hitters themselves, i.e. bullies and future abusers of their children and spouses. They tend to learn to use violent behavior as a way to deal with disputes.

If hitting a child is not wrong, then nothing is wrong.


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Research on Physical Punishment

The data in this area have recently been summarized by Elizabeth Gershoff (Report on Physical Punishment in the United States, 2008) and Susan Bitensky (Corporal Punishment of Children, 2006). The evidence shows that physical punishment is stunningly deleterious at every developmental level.

Meta-analyses of hundreds of studies document that physical punishment is associated with: verbal and physical aggression; delinquent, antisocial, and criminal behavior; poorer quality of parent-child relationships; impaired mental health; and later abuse of one’s own spouse and children.


The International Community and Physical Punishment

Internationally, there is increasing consensus that physical punishment of children violates international human rights laws. Several United Nations treaties address violence towards children, with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC or the Children’s Convention, adopted in 1989) presenting one of the most comprehensive cases regarding the prohibition of physical punishment of children.

The United States has not banned physical punishment, but approval of physical punishment in the United States has declined gradually and steadily over the past 40 years. The United States has signed, but not ratified, the CRC.

Significantly, 37 countries have now prohibited physical punishment in all settings, including the home. United States is not one of them. Among these countries are Sweden, Germany, Spain, Greece, and Venezuela. The laws and consequences tend to be more educative (about development) than punitive. More than 100 countries have banned physical punishment in the schools. Remarkably, in the United States, physical punishment in schools is still legal in 19 states.

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Effective Alternatives to Physical Punishment

There exist a variety of programs and alternatives which provide parents with greater understanding of their children’s development, present strategies which can lead to less violent behavior in children and adults, and decrease the frustration and helplessness in parents which often lead to physical punishment. A detailed presentation of alternatives to physical punishment is contained in the American Psychoanalytic Association’s 2013 Position Statement on Physical Punishment: http://www.apsa.org. > Click here to read the 2013 — Position Statement on Physical Punishment.

Here we will highlight what are perhaps the two most important alternatives to physical punishment.

Use words to explain your feelings.
Use words to label your child’s feelings.
The influence of language begins long before the child can talk (Vivona, 2013). In other words (ha!), listen to your child and talk with your child.

Set a good example.
These identification processes – preverbal and verbal – are among the most important factors in the formation of character structure and psychological health (Gedo, 2005). Act and talk as you would want your child to act and talk. Your child strives to be like you.

Summary

The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychoanalytic Association are among many national and international organizations which have comprehensive position statements calling for a ban on physical punishment and describing effective alternatives. The American Academy of Pediatrics concludes: “Corporal punishment is of limited effectiveness and has potentially deleterious side effects. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that parents be encouraged and assisted in the development of methods other than spanking for managing undesired behavior.”

From a public health perspective, three issues are crucial to decreasing physical punishment: education (about infant and child development); legislation (to aid parents who are at risk and to protect the children); and continued research (especially on the alternatives).

A concerted effort to decrease smoking in the United States was begun in the 1960’s, with the result that the prevalence of smoking has been cut in half. We need a similar public health initiative to do the same with physical punishment. Public health goals of preventing problems and enhancing potential are ideally suited to dealing with the dilemma of physical punishment of children.

If we truly want a less violent society, not hitting our children is a good place to start.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gr ... s-not-work

Few extra links for why "Corporal Punishment" (Child Abuse) doesn't work: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx
http://www.cccf-fcsge.ca/wp-content/uploads/RS_82-e.pdf
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html
http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/06/w ... esnt-work/

"Corporal Punishment" (Nice way of saying Child Abuse) doesn't help them, but it can in fact in studies shown to harm them and traumatize them.

It's even in the United States Constitution, "No Cruel or Unusual Punishment".

The Swedish Parental Code reads: "Children are entitled to care, security and a good upbringing. Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating treatment."

It seems that "Corporal Punishment" for their correctness, is one thing that the conservative right has in common with Sharia Law.

A common argument from the Right has been anecdotal "My parents spanked me and I turned out just fine!"

How much freedom do Libertarians really believe in? Should children be free from any physical punishment?

So how rare is it on NSG to see someone who acually opposes "Corporal Punishment" in all cases?

What do you think of corporal punishment NSG?

[Major-Tom]

I'd never utilize corporal punishment on my children, but there is a large distinction between child abuse and spanking your kid. A very, very large distinction.

[The Liberated Territories]

What exactly is there to discuss here?

[Ifreann]

Obviously these so-called "scienticians" are just lying about corporal punishment so that when the invading armies of the Lizardmen arrive humans will be weak and surrender easily. Corporal punishment toughens children up, and that's just what we need today. That's why I advocate for mandatory paddlings of all children, regardless of their behaviour, to be administered by their teachers, ideally at some kind of school assembly so that children who cry can be targeted for additional bullying character building by their peers, until such time as they are deemed sufficiently tough.

[Souseiseki]

What exactly is there to discuss here?

hmm. i could be misreading the OP, but i think we're supposed to be discussing corporation tax in ireland?

take a wild guess

[Europe and Oceania]

What exactly is there to discuss here?

Are you a Libertarian who believes children should be free from physical punishment?

[Europe and Oceania]

What exactly is there to discuss here?

hmm. i could be misreading the OP, but i think we're supposed to be discussing corporation tax in ireland?

take a wild guess

NS forums jump to discuss to right-wing threads yet you see ^this here. NS forums aren't right-wing biased?

[Major-Tom]

hmm. i could be misreading the OP, but i think we're supposed to be discussing corporation tax in ireland?

take a wild guess

NS forums jump to discuss to right-wing threads yet you see ^this here. NS forums aren't right-wing biased?

I'd argue that it's because you get hordes of butthurt people invading said threads.

Also, this thread is non political, left wing threads get just as much attention, stop whining for the sake of whining.

[United Furry Alliance]

My parents used corporal punishment since as orphans they did not know better nor apparently bothered to learn. That is how they were taught and how I suffered at times from beatings that went too far.
I didnt turn out better for it but in spite of it.
I am against corporal punishment.

[Europe and Oceania]

NS forums jump to discuss to right-wing threads yet you see ^this here. NS forums aren't right-wing biased?

Also, this thread is non political, left wing threads get just as much attention, stop whining for the sake of whining.

But it's okay for the Right to complain about the Liberal Media bias?

Corporal punishment are not the same thing. But it is in my opinion the same thing, child abuse.

People who support corporal punishment are letting people spank/hit their children and inflict physical and psychological pain on children.

[Giovenith]

I always have to roll my eyes at the people who hop up and go, "No way! I was whooped, and I turned out just fine!"

Yeah, and my mother was beat in the head with a telephone receiver by her mom and punched in the stomach by her dad for things like talking back or staying out passed curfew when she was a child. She grew up to be a successful and much-beloved preschool teacher. Did that make those punishments sound and just?

People overcome all kinds of terrible things done to them and go on to lead successful lives, it does not justify what was done to them. The fact that you "turned out fine" doesn't mean that hitting your children is a correct form of discipline.

[Giovenith]

hmm. i could be misreading the OP, but i think we're supposed to be discussing corporation tax in ireland?

take a wild guess

NS forums jump to discuss to right-wing threads yet you see ^this here. NS forums aren't right-wing biased?

You complain that the forums are right-wing biased, yet every other day, we have people complaining about how they're left-wing biased.

The forums are not biased. You win some, you lose some. People on both sides need to stop using "everyone is here just biased!!" as an excuse for their own losses.

[Europe and Oceania]

NS forums jump to discuss to right-wing threads yet you see ^this here. NS forums aren't right-wing biased?

You complain that the forums are right-wing biased, yet every other day, we have people complaining about how they're left-wing biased.

The forums are not biased. You win some, you lose some. People on both sides need to stop using "everyone is here just biased!!" as an excuse for their own losses.

Yes it is. Just look at the threads here and see what most people agree on. It's quite obvious with the wide support for Capitalism,
Anti-Political Correctness, Anti-Feminist, Anti-"SJW" , the major support for Gun rights etc. the only reason why it may seem biased to the
left is because Libertarians make up most of the right-wing here so they are more socially liberal.

If the Left were to claim that the Media in the U.S. is right-wing biased, does that mean it's right-wing biased? No, it's left-wing biased.

[Kernen]

No children should be struck. People who say that they were hit and turned out fine should think back about how that made them feel and question whether they want their children to think of them that way.

Yes it is. Just look at the threads here and see what most people agree on. It's quite obvious with the wide support for Capitalism,
Anti-Political Correctness, Anti-Feminist, Anti-"SJW" , the major support for Gun rights etc. the only reason why it may seem biased to the
left is because Libertarians make up most of the right-wing here so they are more socially liberal.

If the Left were to claim that the Media in the U.S. is right-wing biased, does that mean it's right-wing biased? No, it's left-wing biased.

Just because the forum is righter than thou doesn't make it right wing.

[Europe and Oceania]

No children should be struck. People who say that they were hit and turned out fine should think back about how that made them feel and question whether they want their children to think of them that way.

Yes it is. Just look at the threads here and see what most people agree on. It's quite obvious with the wide support for Capitalism,
Anti-Political Correctness, Anti-Feminist, Anti-"SJW" , the major support for Gun rights etc. the only reason why it may seem biased to the
left is because Libertarians make up most of the right-wing here so they are more socially liberal.

If the Left were to claim that the Media in the U.S. is right-wing biased, does that mean it's right-wing biased? No, it's left-wing biased.

Just because the forum is righter than thou doesn't make it right wing.

I didn't say it's more right relative to me, I just gave you the right-wing ideologies that are widely agreed with here.

So just because most of the U.S. News Media is "Lefter Than Thou" doesn't make the majority of the American Media left-wing biased?

[The United Colonies of Earth]

My mother beat me with her shoes and my belts, my father with his belt, my sister with a ruler, my brother-in-law with a palm branch and a tennis racket.
You fuckin' bet that shit's wrong. It's also why I refuse under any conditions to wear a belt.

Here’s a breakdown of what science has to say:

Physical punishment makes kids more aggressive.
Researchers from Tulane University found that children who are spanked frequently at age 3 are more likely to show aggressive behavior by the time they’re 5 than kids who are not.

You know, I used to slap girls when I was in kindergarten and got into fights with my brother until he got arrested.
He shat on a teacher's desk, got into more fights than I did, and has a criminal record.

Physical punishment doesn’t actually work (even if it appears to).
Yes, spanking may stop problematic behavior, says Sandra Graham-Bermann, Ph.D., a psychology professor and principal investigator for the Child Violence and Trauma Laboratory at the University of Michigan, but that’s because the child is afraid. In the long term, physical punishment will only make kids’ behavior worse.

Reporting on several studies on the topic for CNN, Sarah Kovac wrote, “The sad irony is that the more you physically punish your kids for their lack of self-control, the less they have. They learn how to be controlled by external forces (parents, teachers, bosses), but when the boss isn’t looking, then what?”

That's why I hide away the porn! The "law" is only enforceable when the enforcers see it, because they have taught me that it's only a thing to be slapped onto you by authorities.

Physical punishment encourages kids to continue the cycle of abuse.
A 2011 study published in Child Abuse and Neglect confirmed that physical punishment is cyclical — children who are hit are more likely to use the action to solve problems with their peers and siblings.

Later on, they’re at a higher risk for delinquency and criminal behavior, according to a 2013 article, “Spanking and Child Development: We Know Enough Now to Stop Hitting Our Children,” also by Gershoff.

My brother: criminal record, thrown out of school for burglary and assaulting a kid with autism
Me: bashed my brother's head into a wall, hit a girl for taking my lunch money, flung scissors at another kid for pissing me off with loud noises, got into fights with my brother all the time, passive-aggressive.
Also I fear that if I have kids I'll just continue the cycle.

The negative effects of physical punishment are colossal, well into adulthood.
A 2012 study published in the journal Pediatrics found that “harsh physical punishment was associated with increased odds of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug abuse/dependence, and several personality disorders.”

A review published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal that same year analyzed 20 years of data and came to similar conclusions regarding those risks — and also found that spanking yields no positive outcome.

Well my brother's on drugs and I'm on video games and porn. And we both got beaten.
Is there a correlation?

Spanking actually alters kids’ brains.
A 2009 study concluded that children who were frequently spanked (defined as at least once a month for more than three years) “had less gray matter in certain areas of the prefrontal cortex that have been linked to depression, addiction and other mental health disorders.”

According to CNN, another study — also looking at how corporal punishment affects the brain — found that children who receive it have a decrease in cognitive ability, compared with other kids.

Hehehehe...you're telling me I'm dumber for having suffered asswhackings for what, 12 years?
I'm not surprised. This barbarian shit must end.

[Norstal]

You complain that the forums are right-wing biased, yet every other day, we have people complaining about how they're left-wing biased.

The forums are not biased. You win some, you lose some. People on both sides need to stop using "everyone is here just biased!!" as an excuse for their own losses.

Yes it is. Just look at the threads here and see what most people agree on. It's quite obvious with the wide support for Capitalism,
Anti-Political Correctness, Anti-Feminist, Anti-"SJW" , the major support for Gun rights etc. the only reason why it may seem biased to the
left is because Libertarians make up most of the right-wing here so they are more socially liberal.

If the Left were to claim that the Media in the U.S. is right-wing biased, does that mean it's right-wing biased? No, it's left-wing biased.

As much as I do love me a good ol' Libertarian bashing like your OP, you're beating a dead horse. It's not about being right-wing biased.

[Kernen]

I didn't say it's more right relative to me, I just gave you the right-wing ideologies that are widely agreed with here.

So just because most of the U.S. News Media is "Lefter Than Thou" doesn't make the majority of the American Media left-wing biased?

Hey, look, you're off topic. Child Abuse/Corporal Punishment Discussion, not "Is NS General Right-Wing".

I'd hardly call the media left wing biased. Considering the entire spectrum can range from total anarchy to North Korea and from communist to banana republic, I'd be comfortable placing US media in the middle.

[Europe and Oceania]

What exactly is there to discuss here?

So I take it that you might support corporal punishment?

[Major-Tom]

What exactly is there to discuss here?

So I take it that you might support corporal punishment?

Broseph, you've made strawmen arguments against TLT twice in this thread, lets be mature.

[The Liberated Territories]

What exactly is there to discuss here?

Are you a Libertarian who believes children should be free from physical punishment?

Yes and no.

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

Obviously these so-called "scienticians" are just lying about corporal punishment so that when the invading armies of the Lizardmen arrive humans will be weak and surrender easily. Corporal punishment toughens children up, and that's just what we need today. That's why I advocate for mandatory paddlings of all children, regardless of their behaviour, to be administered by their teachers, ideally at some kind of school assembly so that children who cry can be targeted for additional bullying character building by their peers, until such time as they are deemed sufficiently tough.

Advocating mandatory paddlings? That's a paddlin'!

[The Liberated Territories]

From a moral standpoint, it is obvious that corporal punishment is wrong, but it's a little more complex when you try to put this into policy. What I believe in is maximizing the liberties of both the child (to be free from corporal punishment) and the parent (to have the liberty to parent as they wish without fear of their child being taken away or being penalized beyond what is appropriate for their transgressions.) So what is the right solution? Where do we draw the line?

First of all, I don't believe that the government should have Child Protection Services to proactively police parents and issue penalties on every time corporal punishment is used. What could ruin the child more, being spanked a couple times per month, or being taken away from their parents and put in foster care (and therefore eliminating any chance at a normal upbringing?) Furthermore, we should not burden the users of corporal punishment (whom I would believe aren't typically well to do) with heavy fines. It's better instead to attempt to educate the public - particularly in poorer places in Alabama, Mississippi and also inner-urban areas on why corporal punishment is a bad solution to misbehavior. However, I do believe in intervention as a last resort - when corporal punishment crosses the line from punishment to abuse or aggression. This is not to say that I endorse corporal punishment when it is used (even sporadically), but that I know it's a complex issue that cannot always be solved with government. There is a shaky line between disciplining a child and abusing them and neither a strong government solution or completely ignoring the child's plight in favor of parents is satisfactory.

Therefore, my solution to the debate is this:
1.) Allow parents to enact some corporal punishment sporadically, but treat routine or brutal corporal punishment as an act of aggression that should be treated no differently then the same level of aggression towards adults. Used a graded system of penalties instead of slapping costly fines, and only allow the government to physically intervene as a last resort.
2.) Ban corporal punishment in public schools.
3.) Educate the public on the negative effects of corporal punishment.

While I like to focus on the consequences of policy, Stephen Molyneux does a much better job at explaining why corporal punishment is wrong from a moral standpoint. (Before he got bit by the Trump virus and became insane, that is.)

http://anaarkei.me/post/44500589948/doe ... aggression

[USS Monitor]

I think there's room for debate about EXACTLY where the line is between discipline and abuse, but I don't think it's appropriate at all to hit a 4 year old with a tree branch. Spanking with an open palm gets your point across that they need to change their behavior, so there's no reason to go beyond that. The only thing using an object like a stick or a belt does is increase the risk that you'll injure the kid.

[USS Monitor]

2.) Ban corporal punishment in public schools.

Oh, so much this!

I was really surprised and disturbed by it when I learned there are still places that use it in schools. That's just not a level of authority teachers or school administrators should have over their students.