Abortion in Texas Fully Legal Again

[The Texan Union]

Look. Women are not 'sluts' just because they got pregnant any more than some guy is a 'stud' for having knocked 'em up. So can we kindly leave off all that bullshit. Yes, I know, aside from the one serious post I made, that I've been silly, but really ... some of you are acting ridiculously with the namecalling and claims that aren't backed up with anything more than 'because I believe it to be so'.

I never saw myself as some 'incubator', nor my babies at any stage being 'parasites', so I'm not a great choice to argue a woman's standpoint in all of this - simply /my/ standpoint. And yes, it is rather personal. Like I said before, I cannot support it. But as Gallo has rather succinctly pointed out, neither can I say another woman does not have the right to make those choices herself. She'll have to live with those choices, after all. I won't. There is a whole lot more to this than simply who has what organs and at what point does one consider a fetus another 'life' - and that right there can be complex enough on its own.

You can't argue from a point of feelings or emotions. You have to go from a legality stance. If you cannot have proof that a fetus is capable of making those choices, communicating those choices, or even being considered another sentient life as opposed to a group of cells (see back to complex argument bit there - this one's a doozy), then you can't really say it has any 'rights'. Whereas the woman does have certain rights, whether one likes it, approves of it, or not. One cannot force a person to donate an organ, blood, or to receive a transplant, or other life-saving measures if they are clearly in their right mind, and of an age they can consent. You cannot force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, either. Not legally. We aren't talking about what you think is right, or feel ought to be done. What's at issue is what is legal, and what is not.

It's legal for consenting adults to have sex. It's legal for them to use contraceptives. It's legal for them to get pregnant. It's legal for them to choose to abort the pregnancy, or carry to term. It's legal to give up parental rights after birth. It is not legal to rape someone and purposefully get them pregnant. It is not legal to coerce or force a person to abort, OR to carry to term. It is not legal to kill a baby after live delivery.

Nowhere do any of those things involve feelings or emotions or calls to a higher authority, or a religious backing. You don't have to like it or approve of it. Neither do I. But those are, unless I'm greatly mistaken, fairly standard facts. Some of y'all may need to check yourselves, just a bit before digging those holes any deeper, neh?

I am not arguing the legality of abortion, I'm arguing the morality behind it. I don't really care whether it's legal or not, because I can't change that. All I can do is demonstrate why one may think, based on morality, that it shouldn't be.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I am not arguing the legality of abortion, I'm arguing the morality behind it. I don't really care whether it's legal or not, because I can't change that. All I can do is demonstrate why one may think, based on morality, that it shouldn't be.

Well then, given this thread is based on the LEGALITY of it, your arguments, one might say, have no place here ... *shrugs eloquently*

[Galloism]

I am not offended - just frustrated.

You want to give the fetus a special right that grown people do not have - namely, the right to use another person's body against their will if they will lose their life without it. This is a factual statement about your position.

Own it. There's nothing wrong with you owning a position you've taken.


Then try to think about why the fetus should have a right that adults, adolescents, children, hell, even babies do not have. Come up with reasoning why that's the case. Think about it. I'll be here.

I've clarified my points time, and time again. I do not shrink from defending my positions. I remain opposed to abortion if it does not meet the definitions that I supplied earlier. And i have always maintained the difference between the unborn and between the born. Between the capability of consent, and the inability to consent. That is what I have said, and that is where I stand.

I'm not sure how the capability of consent of the recipient matters. The recipient of an organ donation will almost always consent, particularly if they will die without it.

How does the fact that the recipient can consent affect the consent of the donor person?

Even so, babies, children, and adolescents under the age of majority do not have the capability to legally consent. Why can't we strap down random adults and take organs for those underage people who can't consent?

Incidentally, the comparison goes

Fetus is equivalent to the organ recipient

The Pregnant woman is equivalent to the donor

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

Look. Women are not 'sluts' just because they got pregnant any more than some guy is a 'stud' for having knocked 'em up. So can we kindly leave off all that bullshit. Yes, I know, aside from the one serious post I made, that I've been silly, but really ... some of you are acting ridiculously with the namecalling and claims that aren't backed up with anything more than 'because I believe it to be so'.

I never saw myself as some 'incubator', nor my babies at any stage being 'parasites', so I'm not a great choice to argue a woman's standpoint in all of this - simply /my/ standpoint. And yes, it is rather personal. Like I said before, I cannot support it. But as Gallo has rather succinctly pointed out, neither can I say another woman does not have the right to make those choices herself. She'll have to live with those choices, after all. I won't. There is a whole lot more to this than simply who has what organs and at what point does one consider a fetus another 'life' - and that right there can be complex enough on its own.

You can't argue from a point of feelings or emotions. You have to go from a legality stance. If you cannot have proof that a fetus is capable of making those choices, communicating those choices, or even being considered another sentient life as opposed to a group of cells (see back to complex argument bit there - this one's a doozy), then you can't really say it has any 'rights'. Whereas the woman does have certain rights, whether one likes it, approves of it, or not. One cannot force a person to donate an organ, blood, or to receive a transplant, or other life-saving measures if they are clearly in their right mind, and of an age they can consent. You cannot force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, either. Not legally. We aren't talking about what you think is right, or feel ought to be done. What's at issue is what is legal, and what is not.

It's legal for consenting adults to have sex. It's legal for them to use contraceptives. It's legal for them to get pregnant. It's legal for them to choose to abort the pregnancy, or carry to term. It's legal to give up parental rights after birth. It is not legal to rape someone and purposefully get them pregnant. It is not legal to coerce or force a person to abort, OR to carry to term. It is not legal to kill a baby after live delivery.

Nowhere do any of those things involve feelings or emotions or calls to a higher authority, or a religious backing. You don't have to like it or approve of it. Neither do I. But those are, unless I'm greatly mistaken, fairly standard facts. Some of y'all may need to check yourselves, just a bit before digging those holes any deeper, neh?

I am not arguing the legality of abortion, I'm arguing the morality behind it. I don't really care whether it's legal or not, because I can't change that. All I can do is demonstrate why one may think, based on morality, that it shouldn't be.

Abortion is fully moral. (Assuming you agree in suicide to end unreasonable pain...)

[Godular]

Look. Women are not 'sluts' just because they got pregnant any more than some guy is a 'stud' for having knocked 'em up. So can we kindly leave off all that bullshit. Yes, I know, aside from the one serious post I made, that I've been silly, but really ... some of you are acting ridiculously with the namecalling and claims that aren't backed up with anything more than 'because I believe it to be so'.

I never saw myself as some 'incubator', nor my babies at any stage being 'parasites', so I'm not a great choice to argue a woman's standpoint in all of this - simply /my/ standpoint. And yes, it is rather personal. Like I said before, I cannot support it. But as Gallo has rather succinctly pointed out, neither can I say another woman does not have the right to make those choices herself. She'll have to live with those choices, after all. I won't. There is a whole lot more to this than simply who has what organs and at what point does one consider a fetus another 'life' - and that right there can be complex enough on its own.

You can't argue from a point of feelings or emotions. You have to go from a legality stance. If you cannot have proof that a fetus is capable of making those choices, communicating those choices, or even being considered another sentient life as opposed to a group of cells (see back to complex argument bit there - this one's a doozy), then you can't really say it has any 'rights'. Whereas the woman does have certain rights, whether one likes it, approves of it, or not. One cannot force a person to donate an organ, blood, or to receive a transplant, or other life-saving measures if they are clearly in their right mind, and of an age they can consent. You cannot force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, either. Not legally. We aren't talking about what you think is right, or feel ought to be done. What's at issue is what is legal, and what is not.

It's legal for consenting adults to have sex. It's legal for them to use contraceptives. It's legal for them to get pregnant. It's legal for them to choose to abort the pregnancy, or carry to term. It's legal to give up parental rights after birth. It is not legal to rape someone and purposefully get them pregnant. It is not legal to coerce or force a person to abort, OR to carry to term. It is not legal to kill a baby after live delivery.

Nowhere do any of those things involve feelings or emotions or calls to a higher authority, or a religious backing. You don't have to like it or approve of it. Neither do I. But those are, unless I'm greatly mistaken, fairly standard facts. Some of y'all may need to check yourselves, just a bit before digging those holes any deeper, neh?

I am not arguing the legality of abortion, I'm arguing the morality behind it. I don't really care whether it's legal or not, because I can't change that. All I can do is demonstrate why one may think, based on morality, that it shouldn't be.

Your morals are not universal.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Abortion is fully moral. (Assuming you agree in suicide to end unreasonable pain...)

Your front is getting more than a little tired here, and starting to appear as less argument and more ... bait. Just a heads up. Since you can in no way prove the pain or lack thereof on the part of the fetus, your argument has no solid base to stand on. Sorry. You're projecting your own experiences onto others at best, and that is never terribly healthy.

[Kyrusia]

You make me want to kill myself.

You are literally using indirect quotes pulled out of context in order to support an underlying argument that I'm some sort of sexist asshole! Honestly, you're just a troll, fuck off.

The Texan Union: *** 1-day ban for baiting, trollnaming, and flaming. ***

Oh, I'm never going to commit suicide, i'd feel to guilty.
Anyways, WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF LOVE, PEON. Still waiting.

Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena: Unnecessary. Knock it off.

---

Friendly reminder: the topic of this thread directly relates to the Supreme Court ruling with regards to Texas' law, not abortion in general, for which another thread exists.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I am not arguing the legality of abortion, I'm arguing the morality behind it. I don't really care whether it's legal or not, because I can't change that. All I can do is demonstrate why one may think, based on morality, that it shouldn't be.

Your morality is based on your self-interests as a person.

Like I said before, your interests are not my interests. We mutually do not care about each other's interests, so there is no reason for you to tell me "You're doing something I don't approve of, you damn philistine, repent!" anymore than I can.

You got your own set of morals which further your interests, and I got my set of morals which further my interests. Your interest in making people see why abortions are immoral and therefore shouldn't be legal contradicts my self-interests to not see women perform back-alley abortions on themselves because a society which lets the destitute women of their country, who happen to end up pregnant, perform something so dangerous on themselves is not a society I'd want to say I condone.

[Kyrusia]

Upon further review, I think we'll just go ahead and lock this thread.