Abortion in Texas Fully Legal Again

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Bravo! The woman's irresponsibility does not give her the ability to destroy the innocent unborn!

Let the pain-causing parasite be destroyed before it gains consciousness and harms the woman more. (how is the woman irresponsible? Birth control failure? Obviously, she has complete control of chance.)

If she doesn't have condoms made out of titanium alloys and a stainless steel cuff on her vagina clearly she is just an Average Slut^tm *nods*

[The Texan Union]

Bravo! The woman's irresponsibility does not give her the ability to destroy the innocent unborn!

Let the pain-causing parasite be destroyed before it gains consciousness and harms the woman more. (how is the woman irresponsible? Birth control failure? Obviously, she has complete control of chance.)

You make me want to kill myself.

[Laurasia]

ou have throughout argued that the unborn should be at the complete mercy of the mother.

Actually, I have argued that the mother has the right to her own body - the same right we give to potential organ donors. You've failed to understand the basis for my argument.

What if that was your own child who was at such a limb? What if you didn't want for that child to be aborted?

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the hat. It was very upsetting and still is to this day, but it was still her right.

Just as if I had a child who was deathly ill that needed an organ, and my brother refused to give it because he was afraid and he was the only match. I would be very upset when my child died, but it is his legal right to refuse to give an organ.

What if you were coerced into doing so?

That's already illegal. Dodged a bullet there.

Would you not fight for your own flesh and blood? Why can we not fight for those unable to speak up for themselves?

Oh I would work to convince the shit out of my brother to change his mind (hypothetically) about donating an organ, but if he refused, that is still his right. I respect that legal right must exist, even if I am unhappy with the results in a particular case.

I am sorry that you have faced such a situation. Now, let me say this. I have an absolute respect for free exchange of opinions, and for you to have your views on this sensitive issue. I hope that I have not offended you through my arguments about abortion. You have your views; I have mine's. That is what makes up an intellectual and civil society. Though we can disagree on this issue, all of us can work on other issues and continue to move forward to progress Humanity along as this century moves on.

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

Let the pain-causing parasite be destroyed before it gains consciousness and harms the woman more. (how is the woman irresponsible? Birth control failure? Obviously, she has complete control of chance.)

You make me want to kill myself.

I feel the same way about myself!
But honestly, you shouldn't, because i'm a sleep-deprived overempathetic existentialist jerk somewhere in the world that is inconsequential and worth less than dust. I have so little experience that my ideas should generally be considered worthless, unless one sees some worth in them. I have what I believe is a decent idea of where you are coming from.
But really I just want your definition of the word love. Because I am still waiting...

[Galloism]

I am sorry that you have faced such a situation. Now, let me say this. I have an absolute respect for free exchange of opinions, and for you to have your views on this sensitive issue. I hope that I have not offended you through my arguments about abortion. You have your views; I have mine's. That is what makes up an intellectual and civil society. Though we can disagree on this issue, all of us can work on other issues and continue to move forward to progress Humanity along as this century moves on.

I am not offended - just frustrated.

You want to give the fetus a special right that grown people do not have - namely, the right to use another person's body against their will if they will lose their life without it. This is a factual statement about your position.

Own it. There's nothing wrong with you owning a position you've taken.


Then try to think about why the fetus should have a right that adults, adolescents, children, hell, even babies do not have. Come up with reasoning why that's the case. Think about it. I'll be here.

[The Texan Union]

You make me want to kill myself.

I feel the same way about myself!
But honestly, you shouldn't, because i'm a sleep-deprived overempathetic existentialist jerk somewhere in the world that is inconsequential and worth less than dust. I have so little experience that my ideas should generally be considered worthless, unless one sees some worth in them.

Have you considered the possibility that you're just a teenager? Just look at the people the who love you and live for them. Helping people gave me a purpose when I felt like that.

[Galloism]

Have you considered the possibility that you're just a teenager? Just look at the people the who love you and live for them. Helping people gave me a purpose when I felt like that.

Honestly, during my depression period, those types of sentiment just made it worse.

I remember people telling me "think about how sad your family would be" and my first thought was "wow, you can't think of anything good for me that I might want? You have to go straight to, 'suffer through it because of other people'?"

Then I discovered skydiving (well, decided 'what the hell' and went for it anyway), and things improved somewhat.

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

I feel the same way about myself!
But honestly, you shouldn't, because i'm a sleep-deprived overempathetic existentialist jerk somewhere in the world that is inconsequential and worth less than dust. I have so little experience that my ideas should generally be considered worthless, unless one sees some worth in them.

Have you considered the possibility that you're just a teenager? Just look at the people the who love you and live for them. Helping people gave me a purpose when I felt like that.

Oh, I'm never going to commit suicide, i'd feel to guilty.
Anyways, WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF LOVE, PEON. Still waiting.

[The Texan Union]

I am sorry that you have faced such a situation. Now, let me say this. I have an absolute respect for free exchange of opinions, and for you to have your views on this sensitive issue. I hope that I have not offended you through my arguments about abortion. You have your views; I have mine's. That is what makes up an intellectual and civil society. Though we can disagree on this issue, all of us can work on other issues and continue to move forward to progress Humanity along as this century moves on.

I am not offended - just frustrated.

You want to give the fetus a special right that grown people do not have - namely, the right to use another person's body against their will if they will lose their life without it. This is a factual statement about your position.

Own it. There's nothing wrong with you owning a position you've taken.


Then try to think about why the fetus should have a right that adults, adolescents, children, hell, even babies do not have. Come up with reasoning why that's the case. Think about it. I'll be here.

I feel like you hate children. Honestly, the goal of the fetus is to SURVIVE. It didn't choose to be brought into existence. It's not to blame for its creation, its parents are. You're killing something for no other reason than that it's inconvenient.

[Galloism]

I feel like you hate children. Honestly, the goal of the fetus is to SURVIVE. It didn't choose to be brought into existence. It's not to blame for its creation, its parents are. You're killing something for no other reason than that it's inconvenient.

It's about legal principles, really.

Abortion is not about killing the fetus. It's a side effect of the intended act: namely, to remove support from the fetus when you no longer consent to it using your body for support.

I have a hard time with any situation in which a person is forced, by threat of legal punishment, to use their body to support another person. Hell, I would even be against forced blood donations and that's possibly the most benign form of bodily support you can give a person.

[United Empire of Humanity]

I am not offended - just frustrated.

You want to give the fetus a special right that grown people do not have - namely, the right to use another person's body against their will if they will lose their life without it. This is a factual statement about your position.

Own it. There's nothing wrong with you owning a position you've taken.


Then try to think about why the fetus should have a right that adults, adolescents, children, hell, even babies do not have. Come up with reasoning why that's the case. Think about it. I'll be here.

I feel like you hate children. Honestly, the goal of the fetus is to SURVIVE. It didn't choose to be brought into existence. It's not to blame for its creation, its parents are. You're killing something for no other reason than that it's inconvenient.

I'll gladly call myself a child-hater if it makes you feel better.

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

I am not offended - just frustrated.

You want to give the fetus a special right that grown people do not have - namely, the right to use another person's body against their will if they will lose their life without it. This is a factual statement about your position.

Own it. There's nothing wrong with you owning a position you've taken.


Then try to think about why the fetus should have a right that adults, adolescents, children, hell, even babies do not have. Come up with reasoning why that's the case. Think about it. I'll be here.

I feel like you hate children. Honestly, the goal of the fetus is to SURVIVE. It didn't choose to be brought into existence. It's not to blame for its creation, its parents are. You're killing something for no other reason than that it's inconvenient.

They don't hate children, I hate children. I'd rather it die than have to suffer this useless existence. We exist to infuse the air around us with heat. That's kind of a useless existence. Why not just kill it to prevent the pain it will cause and suffer?

[The Texan Union]

Have you considered the possibility that you're just a teenager? Just look at the people the who love you and live for them. Helping people gave me a purpose when I felt like that.

Honestly, during my depression period, those types of sentiment just made it worse.

I remember people telling me "think about how sad your family would be" and my first thought was "wow, you can't think of anything good for me that I might want? You have to go straight to, 'suffer through it because of other people'?"

Then I discovered skydiving (well, decided 'what the hell' and went for it anyway), and things improved somewhat.

I just enjoy seeing people smile, to be honest. It helped me to help others.

I meant more along the lines of "If they love you, you're clearly doing something right."

Have you considered the possibility that you're just a teenager? Just look at the people the who love you and live for them. Helping people gave me a purpose when I felt like that.

Oh, I'm never going to commit suicide, i'd feel to guilty.
Anyways, WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION OF LOVE, PEON. Still waiting.

That's for another thread, friend. (And not something I consider definable.)

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Look. Women are not 'sluts' just because they got pregnant any more than some guy is a 'stud' for having knocked 'em up. So can we kindly leave off all that bullshit. Yes, I know, aside from the one serious post I made, that I've been silly, but really ... some of you are acting ridiculously with the namecalling and claims that aren't backed up with anything more than 'because I believe it to be so'.

I never saw myself as some 'incubator', nor my babies at any stage being 'parasites', so I'm not a great choice to argue a woman's standpoint in all of this - simply /my/ standpoint. And yes, it is rather personal. Like I said before, I cannot support it. But as Gallo has rather succinctly pointed out, neither can I say another woman does not have the right to make those choices herself. She'll have to live with those choices, after all. I won't. There is a whole lot more to this than simply who has what organs and at what point does one consider a fetus another 'life' - and that right there can be complex enough on its own.

You can't argue from a point of feelings or emotions. You have to go from a legality stance. If you cannot have proof that a fetus is capable of making those choices, communicating those choices, or even being considered another sentient life as opposed to a group of cells (see back to complex argument bit there - this one's a doozy), then you can't really say it has any 'rights'. Whereas the woman does have certain rights, whether one likes it, approves of it, or not. One cannot force a person to donate an organ, blood, or to receive a transplant, or other life-saving measures if they are clearly in their right mind, and of an age they can consent. You cannot force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, either. Not legally. We aren't talking about what you think is right, or feel ought to be done. What's at issue is what is legal, and what is not.

It's legal for consenting adults to have sex. It's legal for them to use contraceptives. It's legal for them to get pregnant. It's legal for them to choose to abort the pregnancy, or carry to term. It's legal to give up parental rights after birth. It is not legal to rape someone and purposefully get them pregnant. It is not legal to coerce or force a person to abort, OR to carry to term. It is not legal to kill a baby after live delivery.

Nowhere do any of those things involve feelings or emotions or calls to a higher authority, or a religious backing. You don't have to like it or approve of it. Neither do I. But those are, unless I'm greatly mistaken, fairly standard facts. Some of y'all may need to check yourselves, just a bit before digging those holes any deeper, neh?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Have you considered the possibility that you're just a teenager? Just look at the people the who love you and live for them. Helping people gave me a purpose when I felt like that.

Honestly, during my depression period, those types of sentiment just made it worse.

I remember people telling me "think about how sad your family would be" and my first thought was "wow, you can't think of anything good for me that I might want? You have to go straight to, 'suffer through it because of other people'?"

Then I discovered skydiving (well, decided 'what the hell' and went for it anyway), and things improved somewhat.

I never understood the whole "think about how sad your family would be", especially not now.

Today, if someone was to tell me "Just look at the people who love you and live for them", I'd say "fuck 'em, my family thinks I'm a waste of space, my brother betrayed me, and you're here telling me I need to live for other people? Let me tell you what, if someone came and threatened to shoot me tomorrow I'd be like 'just pull the trigger motherfucker, just put me out of my damn misery already', I got nothing to lose, so they might even be doing me a favor."

[Galloism]

Honestly, during my depression period, those types of sentiment just made it worse.

I remember people telling me "think about how sad your family would be" and my first thought was "wow, you can't think of anything good for me that I might want? You have to go straight to, 'suffer through it because of other people'?"

Then I discovered skydiving (well, decided 'what the hell' and went for it anyway), and things improved somewhat.

I just enjoy seeing people smile, to be honest. It helped me to help others.

I meant more along the lines of "If they love you, you're clearly doing something right."

Honestly, most depressed people won't take it that way (I think).

[Galloism]

Honestly, during my depression period, those types of sentiment just made it worse.

I remember people telling me "think about how sad your family would be" and my first thought was "wow, you can't think of anything good for me that I might want? You have to go straight to, 'suffer through it because of other people'?"

Then I discovered skydiving (well, decided 'what the hell' and went for it anyway), and things improved somewhat.

I never understood the whole "think about how sad your family would be", especially not now.

Today, if someone was to tell me "Just look at the people who love you and live for them", I'd say "fuck 'em, my family thinks I'm a waste of space, my brother betrayed me, and you're here telling me I need to live for other people? Let me tell you what, if someone came and threatened to shoot me tomorrow I'd be like 'just pull the trigger motherfucker, just put me out of my damn misery already', I got nothing to lose, so they might even be doing me a favor."

Try skydiving. It really helps. There's something very freeing about it, and I won't tell you why on the forum, but I think you'll discover it on your own.

[The Texan Union]

I feel like you hate children. Honestly, the goal of the fetus is to SURVIVE. It didn't choose to be brought into existence. It's not to blame for its creation, its parents are. You're killing something for no other reason than that it's inconvenient.

It's about legal principles, really.

Abortion is not about killing the fetus. It's a side effect of the intended act: namely, to remove support from the fetus when you no longer consent to it using your body for support.

I have a hard time with any situation in which a person is forced, by threat of legal punishment, to use their body to support another person. Hell, I would even be against forced blood donations and that's possibly the most benign form of bodily support you can give a person.

In my opinion, each person is obligated to take care of the people they are responsible for bringing into the world. Avoiding that responsibility is bad enough, but completely removing your obligation to it is even worse. It's like a prison guard killing the prisoners because he's tired of guarding them.

You should temper legality with morality, don't you think?

[Laurasia]

I am sorry that you have faced such a situation. Now, let me say this. I have an absolute respect for free exchange of opinions, and for you to have your views on this sensitive issue. I hope that I have not offended you through my arguments about abortion. You have your views; I have mine's. That is what makes up an intellectual and civil society. Though we can disagree on this issue, all of us can work on other issues and continue to move forward to progress Humanity along as this century moves on.

I am not offended - just frustrated.

You want to give the fetus a special right that grown people do not have - namely, the right to use another person's body against their will if they will lose their life without it. This is a factual statement about your position.

Own it. There's nothing wrong with you owning a position you've taken.


Then try to think about why the fetus should have a right that adults, adolescents, children, hell, even babies do not have. Come up with reasoning why that's the case. Think about it. I'll be here.

I've clarified my points time, and time again. I do not shrink from defending my positions. I remain opposed to abortion if it does not meet the definitions that I supplied earlier. And i have always maintained the difference between the unborn and between the born. Between the capability of consent, and the inability to consent. That is what I have said, and that is where I stand.

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

It's about legal principles, really.

Abortion is not about killing the fetus. It's a side effect of the intended act: namely, to remove support from the fetus when you no longer consent to it using your body for support.

I have a hard time with any situation in which a person is forced, by threat of legal punishment, to use their body to support another person. Hell, I would even be against forced blood donations and that's possibly the most benign form of bodily support you can give a person.

In my opinion, each person is obligated to take care of the people they are responsible for bringing into the world. Avoiding that responsibility is bad enough, but completely removing your obligation to it is even worse. It's like a prison guard killing the prisoners because he's tired of guarding them.

You should temper legality with morality, don't you think?

But it is moral to kill the child. Quick death is better than slow.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I never understood the whole "think about how sad your family would be", especially not now.

Today, if someone was to tell me "Just look at the people who love you and live for them", I'd say "fuck 'em, my family thinks I'm a waste of space, my brother betrayed me, and you're here telling me I need to live for other people? Let me tell you what, if someone came and threatened to shoot me tomorrow I'd be like 'just pull the trigger motherfucker, just put me out of my damn misery already', I got nothing to lose, so they might even be doing me a favor."

Try skydiving. It really helps. There's something very freeing about it, and I won't tell you why on the forum, but I think you'll discover it on your own.

I've been thinking about it, I just don't have the money. When I do though, I'll go for a skydiving trip.

[Laurasia]

In my opinion, each person is obligated to take care of the people they are responsible for bringing into the world. Avoiding that responsibility is bad enough, but completely removing your obligation to it is even worse. It's like a prison guard killing the prisoners because he's tired of guarding them.

You should temper legality with morality, don't you think?

But it is moral to kill the child. Quick death is better than slow.

This statement is completely false. It is not moral to kill any child, born or unborn, 5 months old or halfway through the pregnancy. You cannot choose who can live and who can die, if they are innocent and have not harmed any other people in our society.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

But it is moral to kill the child. Quick death is better than slow.

This statement is completely false. It is not moral to kill any child, born or unborn, 5 months old or halfway through the pregnancy. You cannot choose who can live and who can die, if they are innocent and have not harmed any other people in our society.

Depends on your world view, and your take on morality. Not everyone shares it. Just a heads up. So far as falsities and facts, I posted some earlier that you might want to take a gander at. Not that you have to, but hey.

[Galloism]

It's about legal principles, really.

Abortion is not about killing the fetus. It's a side effect of the intended act: namely, to remove support from the fetus when you no longer consent to it using your body for support.

I have a hard time with any situation in which a person is forced, by threat of legal punishment, to use their body to support another person. Hell, I would even be against forced blood donations and that's possibly the most benign form of bodily support you can give a person.

In my opinion, each person is obligated to take care of the people they are responsible for bringing into the world. Avoiding that responsibility is bad enough, but completely removing your obligation to it is even worse. It's like a prison guard killing the prisoners because he's tired of guarding them.

It really isn't, because while the prisoner is not dependent on any particular guard, and guards can quit literally anytime, pregnancy is not so simple. If the embryo or fetus could be transferred into another womb or an artificial womb at any time, there might be a reason to ban abortion per se - although it would still be a removal of support, it's just that removal of support no longer results in the death of the fetus.

Your argument, that people are obligated to care for people they are responsible for bringing into the world, logically, would bar adoption, foster care, and would require a very limited set of forced organ donations - namely when the child needs an organ and the parent is a match. Even if the parent was afraid to give that organ or did not want to, we would strap them down to a table and take it.

It's a monstrous conclusion.

You should temper legality with morality, don't you think?

I really don't see a conflict here, not at our current level of technology.

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

But it is moral to kill the child. Quick death is better than slow.

This statement is completely false. It is not moral to kill any child, born or unborn, 5 months old or halfway through the pregnancy. You cannot choose who can live and who can die, if they are innocent and have not harmed any other people in our society.

But allowing the child to live will cause death, pain, and the slow death of the child. Is a short, painless existence not better than a long, painful one? Innocence is relative, and honestly it does not matter. A life is a life is a life. They will for certain indirectly kill and directly and indirectly hurt people, and they will hurt, so why not just nip that in the bud and let them die happy?

Besides, there's no proof that the child exists.