UK Referendum Thread [Moderator Sanctioned]

[New Alyssia]

You know that petition for a second referendum that has 2 million + signatures?
Only 350,000 of the signatures are from residents of the UK. Over 1.65 million of them are by foreign people who are trying to make the UK have a second referendum.
Hopefully the UK government, realising the the majority of signatures are by people who have no rights to make an impact on UK domestic matters by signing, will discard the issue swiftly and stick with the democratic result.

1. 350,000 > 100,000
2. About 4.5 to 5.5 million British citizens live outside of the EU; who are entitled to vote in the referendum, sign the petition and take part in the political process as every one else. So unless you have evidence the people who signed are not actual British citizens...?

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest they were British citizens. I'm not claiming the signatories were British, but you are making that claim. Therefore the burden of proof lies on you.

[Quaxoglia]

My solution:

-Alba (Scotland) independent (First, I was strongly against. But now, I support it 100%)
-Northern Ireland: Reunion with the Republic (not full integration, but a diffrent statute within the R.O.I.)
-London should be a member of the European Union.

And maby there should be a referendum in Wales Cyumru and Cornwall aswell.

[CoraSpia]

Absolutely, but I didn't vote remain.
So I don't know what you're talking about

You mean like Leave lied about pumping the £350million a week into the NHS, limiting immigration and being able to get no-strings-attached trade deals with the EU?

They asked a leave campaigner who didn't campaign on the 350 million pounds into the nhs. He said he wouldn't have claimed it. Did they ever actually ask Boris?

And Hannan isn't ever going to be a leader in any future government. He's an MEP. It should also be noted that we've never claimed 'zero imigration' as a target.

[Great Nepal]

1. 350,000 > 100,000
2. About 4.5 to 5.5 million British citizens live outside of the EU; who are entitled to vote in the referendum, sign the petition and take part in the political process as every one else. So unless you have evidence the people who signed are not actual British citizens...?

1.65 million out of 4.5 million is a pretty high organisation rate for a disconnected group of expats living around the world.

Its as if people who live, and work abroad have more vested interest in, and are therefore more likely to be involved in campaigns to retain membership of an organisation which makes visiting, living and working abroad easier, while not being scared of foreigners compared to someone who has never left little England.

[Souseiseki]

Wouldn't you be mad if you voted for something on the basis of lies?

Please, tell me what exactly the Leave campaign has lied about?

I can think of several things the Remain campaign has lied about - 10 year long exit deals, emergency tax rate rises, the idea that we gained anything from Cameron's renegotiation, that Turkey would never join the EU, that Putin supports leave, etc.

you're right. 10 year long deals would be good. at the moment we're completely fucked. the EU wants an immediately 2 year deal and we're screaming no no no.

george osborne has disappeared off the face of the planet so we don't actually know what's happening on that front

nobody said turkey would never join the EU. they said it would take a very very long time, they have only complted 1 of 31 steps and we could veto them forever if we felt like it. this is true.

putin is very happy with leave. this is not really something that is under question. putin wants to see the UK and EU weakened if not destroyed and this is the best way to do it. is "putin doesn't like the EU" a controversial statement now?

[Vassenor]

You mean like Leave lied about pumping the £350million a week into the NHS, limiting immigration and being able to get no-strings-attached trade deals with the EU?

They asked a leave campaigner who didn't campaign on the 350 million pounds into the nhs. He said he wouldn't have claimed it. Did they ever actually ask Boris?

And Hannan isn't ever going to be a leader in any future government. He's an MEP. It should also be noted that we've never claimed 'zero imigration' as a target.

Hence why I said "limiting". And as I pointed out before, people were voting Leave because they thought it would mean a total end to immigration.

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

My solution:

-Alba (Scotland) independent (First, I was strongly against. But now, I support it 100%)
-Northern Ireland: Reunion with the Republic (not full integration, but a diffrent statute within the R.O.I.)
-London should be a member of the European Union.

And maby there should be a referendum in Wales Cyumru and Cornwall aswell.

Free City of London? I approve!

[Ifreann]

It is possible for them to receive a huge amount of signatures. Many leave voters say they wouldn't have voted leave if they knew they were actually going to win, it was just as a protest. Remain knows it would win a 2nd referendum, so it must try.

Doesn't seem like much point in trying again the damage is already done.

You all got on David Cameron's magical carpet ride admittedly even he rage quit his own ride but that's no reason to despair. I'm sure the magical carpet will bring us to somewhere far from here.

A whole new world.

[CoraSpia]

1.65 million out of 4.5 million is a pretty high organisation rate for a disconnected group of expats living around the world.

Its as if people who live, and work abroad have more vested interest in, and are therefore more likely to be involved in campaigns to retain membership of an organisation which makes visiting, living and working abroad easier, while not being scared of foreigners compared to someone who has never left little England.

Oddly, when we lived in Switzerland, my family didn't struggle to get in.
But anyway, this 4.5 million citizens. Does that include children? If it does, then the number of citizens is even lower and gets even more suspicious.

[Greater Mackonia]

Which the British government is in a significantly better position to ignore than the EU.

Except, as Glamour has been at pains to point out, it is not.

I didn't really see anything particularly contradictory in that post. A government's legitimacy does not depend on a glorified opinion poll but on its ability to effectively exercise power. Nicola Sturgeon can declare independence all she wants, it would have no effect, neither does such meaningless language as declaring the union "illegitimate". The United Kingdom is a sovereign power, the Scottish government is not, the United Kingdom commands the monopoly of violence to decide the state of the exception which is law, the Scottish government does not. The United Kingdom does not exist according to any 'principles', it exists as a cartel of coercion conduct by one group of individuals against another.

Of course, I entirely concede that in practice the government will most likely bow to demands for a Scottish referendum to spite the people of this country. The Trotskyite deep state are already mobilising to give this non-issue false credibility. I am just pointing out in reality the Scottish government is in no position to make these demands and if we had competent leaders they would just be ignored.

You're forgetting our Trump card.

Who's busy alienating the entire electorate and getting insulted by the Scottish on twitter.

Who's busy winning and will beat Hillary Clinton in November while self-important bores make unoriginal comments to each other about people better than them?

[CoraSpia]

Doesn't seem like much point in trying again the damage is already done.

You all got on David Cameron's magical carpet ride admittedly even he rage quit his own ride but that's no reason to despair. I'm sure the magical carpet will bring us to somewhere far from here.

A whole new world.

Their's certainly some new points of view going on, but I wouldn't call them fantastic.

[Imperializt Russia]

1. 350,000 > 100,000
2. About 4.5 to 5.5 million British citizens live outside of the EU; who are entitled to vote in the referendum, sign the petition and take part in the political process as every one else. So unless you have evidence the people who signed are not actual British citizens...?

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest they were British citizens. I'm not claiming the signatories were British, but you are making that claim. Therefore the burden of proof lies on you.

No, you are making the irrational claim.

Therefore, balls still in your court, love.

[Vassenor]

Who's busy winning and will beat Hillary Clinton in November while self-important bores make unoriginal comments to each other about people better than them?

[citation needed]

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Are we basing our decisions on ideologies or on your pocket?

I'm basing my reasoning on my pocket.

That had nothing to do with my point, or are you just keen to pursue that old fish again?

Your quip about "secessionist sentiment growing" also has nothing to do with my point about the economy.

So we're on equal standing, here.

[Ifreann]

Except, as Glamour has been at pains to point out, it is not.

I didn't really see anything particularly contradictory in that post. A government's legitimacy does not depend on a glorified opinion poll but on its ability to effectively exercise power. Nicola Sturgeon can declare independence all she wants, it would have no effect, neither does such meaningless language as declaring the union "illegitimate". The United Kingdom is a sovereign power, the Scottish government is not, the United Kingdom commands the monopoly of violence to decide the state of the exception which is law, the Scottish government does not. The United Kingdom does not exist according to any 'principles', it exists as a cartel of coercion conduct by one group of individuals against another.

Of course, I entirely concede that in practice the government will most likely bow to demands for a Scottish referendum to spite the people of this country. The Trotskyite deep state are already mobilising to give this non-issue false credibility. I am just pointing out in reality the Scottish government is in no position to make these demands and if we had competent leaders they would just be ignored.

Who's busy alienating the entire electorate and getting insulted by the Scottish on twitter.

Who's busy winning and will beat Hillary Clinton in November while self-important bores make unoriginal comments to each other about people better than them?

Spongebob Squarepants?

[Souseiseki]

Its as if people who live, and work abroad have more vested interest in, and are therefore more likely to be involved in campaigns to retain membership of an organisation which makes visiting, living and working abroad easier, while not being scared of foreigners compared to someone who has never left little England.

Oddly, when we lived in Switzerland, my family didn't struggle to get in.
But anyway, this 4.5 million citizens. Does that include children? If it does, then the number of citizens is even lower and gets even more suspicious.

switzerland is famously xenophobic and anti-immigration. the only reason you could live there is because the EU made them accept freedom of movement. unless you are a secret citizen you just completely fucked that.

[The Qeiiam Star Cluster]

Of course, I entirely concede that in practice the government will most likely bow to demands for a Scottish referendum to spite the people of this country. The Trotskyite deep state are already mobilising to give this non-issue false credibility. I am just pointing out in reality the Scottish government is in no position to make these demands and if we had competent leaders they would just be ignored.

Wut?

[Great Nepal]

1. 350,000 > 100,000
2. About 4.5 to 5.5 million British citizens live outside of the EU; who are entitled to vote in the referendum, sign the petition and take part in the political process as every one else. So unless you have evidence the people who signed are not actual British citizens...?

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest they were British citizens. I'm not claiming the signatories were British, but you are making that claim. Therefore the burden of proof lies on you.

They declared themselves to be British and unless you have an evidence to contradict them, I'm going to believe them like I'd believe other people who signed petitions on that site. You are claiming they are "foreign people", unless you have some evidence to support that lets refrain from calling people liars.

[CoraSpia]

They asked a leave campaigner who didn't campaign on the 350 million pounds into the nhs. He said he wouldn't have claimed it. Did they ever actually ask Boris?

And Hannan isn't ever going to be a leader in any future government. He's an MEP. It should also be noted that we've never claimed 'zero imigration' as a target.

Hence why I said "limiting". And as I pointed out before, people were voting Leave because they thought it would mean a total end to immigration.

You always get people who misinterpret campaign promises. I think they did a pretty good job at saying it wasn't about completely stopping immigration.

[Greater Mackonia]

Who's busy winning and will beat Hillary Clinton in November while self-important bores make unoriginal comments to each other about people better than them?

[citation needed]

You gave no citation to your original point, I saw no need to give any for mine. Pull yourself together you smarmy hypocrite.

[Ararat Mountain]

Even if this sad, butthurt petition makes it through. It will NEVER make it through to Parliament if it even gets there.

[citation needed]

Why do you think it'll even go through?

[Neu Leonstein]

I didn't really see anything particularly contradictory in that post. A government's legitimacy does not depend on a glorified opinion poll but on its ability to effectively exercise power. Nicola Sturgeon can declare independence all she wants, it would have no effect, neither does such meaningless language as declaring the union "illegitimate". The United Kingdom is a sovereign power, the Scottish government is not, the United Kingdom commands the monopoly of violence to decide the state of the exception which is law, the Scottish government does not. The United Kingdom does not exist according to any 'principles', it exists as a cartel of coercion conduct by one group of individuals against another.

Of course, I entirely concede that in practice the government will most likely bow to demands for a Scottish referendum to spite the people of this country. The Trotskyite deep state are already mobilising to give this non-issue false credibility. I am just pointing out in reality the Scottish government is in no position to make these demands and if we had competent leaders they would just be ignored.

Sure, but a military occupation of Scotland by England is not exactly consistent with the rules to which the British government agreed to subject itself. Now, you can dislike those rules, that's fine. But when competence is measured as "willingness to trigger violent armed conflict within one's borders", then you will find competent leaders to be few and far between in developed countries.

[CoraSpia]

Oddly, when we lived in Switzerland, my family didn't struggle to get in.
But anyway, this 4.5 million citizens. Does that include children? If it does, then the number of citizens is even lower and gets even more suspicious.

switzerland is famously xenophobic and anti-immigration. the only reason you could live there is because the EU made them accept freedom of movement. unless you are a secret citizen you just completely fucked that.

Oddly enough, I have no problem with immigration. When I was campaigning, I didn't mention the word once. Of course, if we could have some sort of control on it it'd be good, but that wouldn't be a sticking point for me.
And we didn't notice the xenophobia. They were extremely nice to us.

[Vassenor]

[citation needed]

What does that mean?Because I used the word "butthurt"? Oh, get over it.
I really don't think thatyou should be calling on punishment just because of one word, and it wasn't even that bad, really.Get over it. doesn't make sense to silence people becauseyou are offended. :)

I'm not easily offended. I want proof to back up your assertion that it will never make it to parliament.

[Greater Mackonia]

That had nothing to do with my point, or are you just keen to pursue that old fish again?

Your quip about "secessionist sentiment growing" also has nothing to do with my point about the economy.

So we're on equal standing, here.

If such sentiment actualises itself, the EU will be in a weaker negotiating position and the Euro harmed. We just need to keep up the illusion of stability until the whole thing starts to stink.