UK Referendum Thread [Moderator Sanctioned]

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yes. A lot of the Leave officials are now going around claiming our relationship with Europe will remain exactly the same and nothing will change.

they said that people were going to be disappointed but this is a whole new level

Denial's not just a river, really.

[Minzerland]

So, what's been happening while I was asleep?

Dubious online tabloids insist that among other things, even London secessionism got a boost out of the results, but I can't help but think that's a bit of a ridiculous exaggeration.

what was the last bit of news you got?

Farage lied about 350,the EU wants us to just fuck off already, leave have no plan, some UKIP MEPs think the EU are going to give us tarrif-free trade becuase they live in a fucking fantasu land. not much has changed really.

I'd like a Citation, please.

[Imperializt Russia]

The UK dun goofed.

http://i.imgur.com/XKUxoRN.jpg

i have been saving this for 6 hours

I got given the unedited version of that by an American friend the morning of the result.

[Imperializt Russia]

what was the last bit of news you got?

Farage lied about 350,the EU wants us to just fuck off already, leave have no plan, some UKIP MEPs think the EU are going to give us tarrif-free trade becuase they live in a fucking fantasu land. not much has changed really.

I'd like a Citation, please.

It's a fair point. I don't know if Farage himself made a claim about the £350 for the NHS - doubtless he's made mutterings about it - but the battlebus plastered in it and all the billboards and posters... that was Vote Leave, the official campaign. Farage was not a part of this campaign, and was part of Leave.EU

[Minzerland]

I'd like a Citation, please.

It's a fair point. I don't know if Farage himself made a claim about the £350 for the NHS - doubtless he's made mutterings about it - but the battlebus plastered in it and all the billboards and posters... that was Vote Leave, the official campaign. Farage was not a part of this campaign, and was part of Leave.EU

I'm pretty sure it was Boris's battlebus, then again, it also didn't really say how much funding will go to NHS.

[Imperializt Russia]

Aside from the fact that Boris has made no secret of wanting it privatised and he's pretty much guaranteed to end up in the big chair.

Oh, great, he wants something like medicare.

As if they hadn't learned a lesson from us when it comes to quasi-privatized healthcare.

We did learn.

But whether or not it's good for consumers isn't what we're looking for, or we'd have stuck to the NHS as-is. It's how much profit can be made, and how little the state can be involved.

Apparently as much as a quarter of a million Texans got inspired by Brexit and are now petitioning for the State of Texas to have a referendum to secede from the Union.

Bunch of fucking idiots.

oh reminds me speaking of which

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

the probably useless petition continues to grow

If it exceeds the Leave vote's majority by Monday...
I wonder.

[Imperializt Russia]

It's a fair point. I don't know if Farage himself made a claim about the £350 for the NHS - doubtless he's made mutterings about it - but the battlebus plastered in it and all the billboards and posters... that was Vote Leave, the official campaign. Farage was not a part of this campaign, and was part of Leave.EU

I'm pretty sure it was Boris's battlebus, then again, it also didn't really say how much funding will go to NHS.

The clear implication was all of it.
I am entirely certain that many voters voted on the back of that claim, in part or even entirely.

Hence why the Remain campaigns and remain-leaning independent groups kept lodging official complaints with the election and advertising regulator because it was totally misleading.
The NHS filed a fucking cease and desist, which was never followed.

[Kaztropol]

There's a thing that happened not so long ago, that shows something about the politicians and media reaction to vote results that they don't like.

The Muirfield Golf Club vote on whether to allow women members. 64% of members voted to allow women members. 36% did not.

The result was described as "indefensible" by the First Minister, who went on to say that the result should be overturned. Other commentators described the golf club members as bigots, that the result was an embarrassment, that the members should "all be ashamed".

Because they didn't get a 2/3rds majority, which under the rules of the club, meant that alterations could not be made to the clubs constitution.

Even though the majority voted in favour, all the members were treated by the politicians and commentators as if they had all voted against.


It was the same in the 2014 Scottish referendum, and in this referendum. The politicians that were upset at the result, start trying to demonise the voters, calling them "gullible", or "racists", which carries with it, the implication that those politicians don't believe in the idea of universal adult suffrage, a thing that people died campaigning for, were imprisoned, transported to Australia, and in some cases executed for campaigning for.

[Minzerland]

I'm pretty sure it was Boris's battlebus, then again, it also didn't really say how much funding will go to NHS.

The clear implication was all of it.
I am entirely certain that many voters voted on the back of that claim, in part or even entirely.

Hence why the Remain campaigns and remain-leaning independent groups kept lodging official complaints with the election and advertising regulator because it was totally misleading.
The NHS filed a fucking cease and desist, which was never followed.

But to blame Nigel Farage, I mean C'mon.

[Imperializt Russia]

Quoted from the other thread:

In your opinion. The EU has benefits, and downsides both. Not every country is trying to join the EU. It is not some magical utopia. The EU has some good things, but a lot of problems too.

Not every country is trying to join the EU because, well, it is a European Union. Other countries get access to the EU market by basing in an EU country. Often, the UK.

Lots of countries are trying to join the EU within Europe. Eastern Europe wants the fuck in. Russia went to war because Ukraine wanted in.
Fucking Israel wanted in enough to be part of the EEA.

[Imperializt Russia]

The clear implication was all of it.
I am entirely certain that many voters voted on the back of that claim, in part or even entirely.

Hence why the Remain campaigns and remain-leaning independent groups kept lodging official complaints with the election and advertising regulator because it was totally misleading.
The NHS filed a fucking cease and desist, which was never followed.

But to blame Nigel Farage, I mean C'mon.

Farage is the person who said that it probably wouldn't be used in full for that (because the number is wrong). He probably said it himself at one point, he never spent any time in the campaign saying "yo, dudez, come on" to Vote Leave.

[Arkinesia]

If it exceeds the Leave vote's majority by Monday...
I wonder.

Already awkwardly, dangerously close. Less than 500k away.

[Greater Mackonia]

So, I was talking about this with a coworker of mine who is a forex trader (the stuff you learn). He was buying pounds for a bit though he's obviously just dumping them now, because it's making something out of nothing. But it made me think of something, and it's more of a broad thing.

I'm now realizing why it is that I find the Leave campaign so distasteful—aside from the obvious, such as Nigel Farage saying “we did it without firing a single bullet” (though it was arguably three, RIP Jo Cox), and that is that they haven't really advocated for anything.

This is a common error in political campaigns—rail against the Big Bad, then win, and realize, oh shit, we actually have to do something in a positive sense now.

The crash of the GBP isn't the result of some kind of fucking bankers' cabal conspiracy. It's because investors are quite reasonably very concerned that Leavers, which will now be taking over the ruling Tories under the direction of PM Cameron, don't have a gameplan. That's where the word “uncertainty” keeps coming from.

And I suspect that these investors and bankers have very good reason to be worried. I don't think Leave actually expected to win, and I don't think they have any idea as to what the hell they're going to do. This is why a little tiny part of me is skeptical that a Brexit will actually happen, and that even if it does, Leavers aren't going to get so much as a quarter of what they want.

There's no list of demands, no list of lines in the sand, no list of things Leave is willing to compromise on with the EU. They don't know what they're doing, they're clueless, and now the burden of proof is on them to prove that they have the slightest fucking clue as to what they're doing.

The Leave campaign cannot make any single set of 'plans' because the Leave campaign is not putting forward, and could not execute, any domestic programme, people with ideological leanings as diverse as Nigel Farage to allegedly Jeremy Corbyn and Kate Hoey back Leave, to claim "Leave aren't giving a clear alternative" is a spurious and irrelevant point. "Leave" is not a political party, "Leave" is not right-wing, or Tory, or UKIP, Leave is just that: Leaving the European Union. Whatever happens once Britain leaves the EU is in the hands of the incumbent government, what happens to immigration levels, the NHS, the rebate, Scotland and all other things is the prerogative of that reigning government: not "the Leave campaign" (there were like, three of them).

Of course, don't expect otherwise intelligent people who backed Remain to understand this and not say "hurr durr! we left the EU and immigration hasn't even gone down! Boris jpohnson wonts to privatise the EN-HACH-ESS anyway durr!" Leaving the EU is about having the ability to do those things, it cannot perform them in itself and it is deliberate stupidity on the part of Remainians to phrase it like that. Exactly how those policies are executed depends on the UK government.

And surprise, surprise, the North London media are now turning the non-issue of Scotland into some kind of legitimate concern, they'd rather break up the UK than see it leave the Humanist superstate.

[Arkinesia]

The Leave campaign cannot make any single set of 'plans' because the Leave campaign is not putting forward, and could not execute, any domestic programme, people with ideological leanings as diverse as Nigel Farage to allegedly Jeremy Corbyn and Kate Hoey back Leave, to claim "Leave aren't giving a clear alternative" is a spurious and irrelevant point. "Leave" is not a political party, "Leave" is not right-wing, or Tory, or UKIP, Leave is just that: Leaving the European Union. Whatever happens once Britain leaves the EU is in the hands of the incumbent government, what happens to immigration levels, the NHS, the rebate, Scotland and all other things is the prerogative of that reigning government: not "the Leave campaign" (there were like, three of them).

Of course, don't expect otherwise intelligent people who backed Remain to understand this and not say "hurr durr! we left the EU and immigration hasn't even gone down! Boris jpohnson wonts to privatise the EN-HACH-ESS anyway durr!" Leaving the EU is about having the ability to do those things, it cannot perform them in itself and it is deliberate stupidity on the part of Remainians to phrase it like that. Exactly how those policies are executed depends on the UK government.

And surprise, surprise, the North London media are now turning the non-issue of Scotland into some kind of legitimate concern, they'd rather break up the UK than see it leave the Humanist superstate.

To all of this, I say, “excuses, excuses!” Which is the thrust of my entire argument.

I get that there's an ideological spectrum in the Leave camp (as with the Remain camp), but they couldn't agree on anything in terms of what they wanted out of the EU divorce? Seriously? If that's the case, why have the referendum? If you have no endgame in mind, your fight is already lost. Has nobody in the Leave camp ever read Sun Tzu? It's basically required reading for politics and government just as much as fighting wars.

And, none of your post addresses another critical problem, which is the Leave camp denying reality and saying that everything is fine as the house burns down around them, like so:

[UED]

So, I was talking about this with a coworker of mine who is a forex trader (the stuff you learn). He was buying pounds for a bit though he's obviously just dumping them now, because it's making something out of nothing. But it made me think of something, and it's more of a broad thing.

I'm now realizing why it is that I find the Leave campaign so distasteful—aside from the obvious, such as Nigel Farage saying “we did it without firing a single bullet” (though it was arguably three, RIP Jo Cox), and that is that they haven't really advocated for anything.

This is a common error in political campaigns—rail against the Big Bad, then win, and realize, oh shit, we actually have to do something in a positive sense now.

The crash of the GBP isn't the result of some kind of fucking bankers' cabal conspiracy. It's because investors are quite reasonably very concerned that Leavers, which will now be taking over the ruling Tories under the direction of PM Cameron, don't have a gameplan. That's where the word “uncertainty” keeps coming from.

And I suspect that these investors and bankers have very good reason to be worried. I don't think Leave actually expected to win, and I don't think they have any idea as to what the hell they're going to do. This is why a little tiny part of me is skeptical that a Brexit will actually happen, and that even if it does, Leavers aren't going to get so much as a quarter of what they want.

There's no list of demands, no list of lines in the sand, no list of things Leave is willing to compromise on with the EU. They don't know what they're doing, they're clueless, and now the burden of proof is on them to prove that they have the slightest fucking clue as to what they're doing.

The Leave campaign cannot make any single set of 'plans' because the Leave campaign is not putting forward, and could not execute, any domestic programme, people with ideological leanings as diverse as Nigel Farage to allegedly Jeremy Corbyn and Kate Hoey back Leave, to claim "Leave aren't giving a clear alternative" is a spurious and irrelevant point. "Leave" is not a political party, "Leave" is not right-wing, or Tory, or UKIP, Leave is just that: Leaving the European Union. Whatever happens once Britain leaves the EU is in the hands of the incumbent government, what happens to immigration levels, the NHS, the rebate, Scotland and all other things is the prerogative of that reigning government: not "the Leave campaign" (there were like, three of them).

Of course, don't expect otherwise intelligent people who backed Remain to understand this and not say "hurr durr! we left the EU and immigration hasn't even gone down! Boris jpohnson wonts to privatise the EN-HACH-ESS anyway durr!" Leaving the EU is about having the ability to do those things, it cannot perform them in itself and it is deliberate stupidity on the part of Remainians to phrase it like that. Exactly how those policies are executed depends on the UK government.

And surprise, surprise, the North London media are now turning the non-issue of Scotland into some kind of legitimate concern, they'd rather break up the UK than see it leave the Humanist superstate.

Scottish secession is a legitimate concern. You severely underestimate the desire of the Scottish people to remain in the EU (all their council areas voted "remain", total result was 62% for remain, and that's disregarding the somewhat low turnout the scots had. That and the Scots have a "fuck you" mentality towards the English, similar to how the English have a "screw Europe" mentality.

[CoraSpia]

But to blame Nigel Farage, I mean C'mon.

Farage is the person who said that it probably wouldn't be used in full for that (because the number is wrong). He probably said it himself at one point, he never spent any time in the campaign saying "yo, dudez, come on" to Vote Leave.

Not really, because I imagine that most of the people who signed it already voted in the referendum for remain. If their was some massive disenfranchisement, it might happen, but their wasn't.

[Minzerland]

But to blame Nigel Farage, I mean C'mon.

Farage is the person who said that it probably wouldn't be used in full for that (because the number is wrong). He probably said it himself at one point, he never spent any time in the campaign saying "yo, dudez, come on" to Vote Leave.

Fair enough I'll concede.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

So, I was talking about this with a coworker of mine who is a forex trader (the stuff you learn). He was buying pounds for a bit though he's obviously just dumping them now, because it's making something out of nothing. But it made me think of something, and it's more of a broad thing.

I'm now realizing why it is that I find the Leave campaign so distasteful—aside from the obvious, such as Nigel Farage saying “we did it without firing a single bullet” (though it was arguably three, RIP Jo Cox), and that is that they haven't really advocated for anything.

This is a common error in political campaigns—rail against the Big Bad, then win, and realize, oh shit, we actually have to do something in a positive sense now.

The crash of the GBP isn't the result of some kind of fucking bankers' cabal conspiracy. It's because investors are quite reasonably very concerned that Leavers, which will now be taking over the ruling Tories under the direction of PM Cameron, don't have a gameplan. That's where the word “uncertainty” keeps coming from.

And I suspect that these investors and bankers have very good reason to be worried. I don't think Leave actually expected to win, and I don't think they have any idea as to what the hell they're going to do. This is why a little tiny part of me is skeptical that a Brexit will actually happen, and that even if it does, Leavers aren't going to get so much as a quarter of what they want.

There's no list of demands, no list of lines in the sand, no list of things Leave is willing to compromise on with the EU. They don't know what they're doing, they're clueless, and now the burden of proof is on them to prove that they have the slightest fucking clue as to what they're doing.

This sounds about right.

Even worse there's a perfect map that shows the exact towns and cities that voted leave and remain so we've got territories marked out for us for when the rioting starts.

Apparently as much as a quarter of a million Texans got inspired by Brexit and are now petitioning for the State of Texas to have a referendum to secede from the Union.

Bunch of fucking idiots.

I, for one, fully endorse Texas leaving.

I really hope they monitor the situation in the UK and seriously consider how bad an idea this is. Our economy is going through a crisis OF OUR OWN MAKING.

And what's worse is there won't be anyone to blame but the Leave campaigners for damning us and they don't have the first clue about what they want.
So all that's left is arguing and fighting over nothing the UK will simply cease to exist in a few years.

[CoraSpia]

The Leave campaign cannot make any single set of 'plans' because the Leave campaign is not putting forward, and could not execute, any domestic programme, people with ideological leanings as diverse as Nigel Farage to allegedly Jeremy Corbyn and Kate Hoey back Leave, to claim "Leave aren't giving a clear alternative" is a spurious and irrelevant point. "Leave" is not a political party, "Leave" is not right-wing, or Tory, or UKIP, Leave is just that: Leaving the European Union. Whatever happens once Britain leaves the EU is in the hands of the incumbent government, what happens to immigration levels, the NHS, the rebate, Scotland and all other things is the prerogative of that reigning government: not "the Leave campaign" (there were like, three of them).

Of course, don't expect otherwise intelligent people who backed Remain to understand this and not say "hurr durr! we left the EU and immigration hasn't even gone down! Boris jpohnson wonts to privatise the EN-HACH-ESS anyway durr!" Leaving the EU is about having the ability to do those things, it cannot perform them in itself and it is deliberate stupidity on the part of Remainians to phrase it like that. Exactly how those policies are executed depends on the UK government.

And surprise, surprise, the North London media are now turning the non-issue of Scotland into some kind of legitimate concern, they'd rather break up the UK than see it leave the Humanist superstate.

Scottish secession is a legitimate concern. You severely underestimate the desire of the Scottish people to remain in the EU (all their council areas voted "remain", total result was 62% for remain, and that's disregarding the somewhat low turnout the scots had. That and the Scots have a "fuck you" mentality towards the English, similar to how the English have a "screw Europe" mentality.

That doesn't mean they should get a second referendum so soon after the first. Otherwise, 'don't do this or referendum' is going to become the threat of choice.

[Imperializt Russia]

Farage is the person who said that it probably wouldn't be used in full for that (because the number is wrong). He probably said it himself at one point, he never spent any time in the campaign saying "yo, dudez, come on" to Vote Leave.

Not really, because I imagine that most of the people who signed it already voted in the referendum for remain. If their was some massive disenfranchisement, it might happen, but their wasn't.

Of course it doesn't mean anything, but an argument for clear response could be made on the grounds that it is a symbolic opposition to such a grave course of action taken on a relatively slim majority.

You misquoted, by the way,

[Greater Mackonia]

The Leave campaign cannot make any single set of 'plans' because the Leave campaign is not putting forward, and could not execute, any domestic programme, people with ideological leanings as diverse as Nigel Farage to allegedly Jeremy Corbyn and Kate Hoey back Leave, to claim "Leave aren't giving a clear alternative" is a spurious and irrelevant point. "Leave" is not a political party, "Leave" is not right-wing, or Tory, or UKIP, Leave is just that: Leaving the European Union. Whatever happens once Britain leaves the EU is in the hands of the incumbent government, what happens to immigration levels, the NHS, the rebate, Scotland and all other things is the prerogative of that reigning government: not "the Leave campaign" (there were like, three of them).

Of course, don't expect otherwise intelligent people who backed Remain to understand this and not say "hurr durr! we left the EU and immigration hasn't even gone down! Boris jpohnson wonts to privatise the EN-HACH-ESS anyway durr!" Leaving the EU is about having the ability to do those things, it cannot perform them in itself and it is deliberate stupidity on the part of Remainians to phrase it like that. Exactly how those policies are executed depends on the UK government.

And surprise, surprise, the North London media are now turning the non-issue of Scotland into some kind of legitimate concern, they'd rather break up the UK than see it leave the Humanist superstate.

To all of this, I say, “excuses, excuses!” Which is the thrust of my entire argument.

I get that there's an ideological spectrum in the Leave camp (as with the Remain camp), but they couldn't agree on anything in terms of what they wanted out of the EU divorce? Seriously? If that's the case, why have the referendum? If you have no endgame in mind, your fight is already lost. Has nobody in the Leave camp ever read Sun Tzu? It's basically required reading for politics and government just as much as fighting wars.

And, none of your post addresses another critical problem, which is the Leave camp denying reality and saying that everything is fine as the house burns down around them, like so:

Its not that people did not have an endgame, they just had lots of different endgames and no way to execute them. I can only repeat my point, how sovereignty is exercised is the decision of the UK government. I can already see how the High Church will use this arrangement to pursue deliberately bad policies (like whipping up the non-issue of Scotland) in their freedom and then use the consequences as a front to re-enter the EU when the least-critical generation come of age.

The Leave campaign are not issuing a positive domestic platform, they do not need to, it would be meaningless for them to do so. What do they agree on? They agree on Leaving the EU. Why have the referendum? To leave the EU. The issue is sovereignty, from which all alternative political projects spring. This is not a hard issue to understand.

Everything is fine, the Metropolitan media and drooling negative-IQ twitter crowd are stirring hysteria. But nobody ever claimed this would be an easy process. Any major change in the political arrangements of a state will cause some level of instability. But in our short-term world this will easily be exploited. What we need is for pragmatic Cameron to calm the waters and begin driving a hard-bargain to Brussels.

[Imperializt Russia]

Scottish secession is a legitimate concern. You severely underestimate the desire of the Scottish people to remain in the EU (all their council areas voted "remain", total result was 62% for remain, and that's disregarding the somewhat low turnout the scots had. That and the Scots have a "fuck you" mentality towards the English, similar to how the English have a "screw Europe" mentality.

That doesn't mean they should get a second referendum so soon after the first. Otherwise, 'don't do this or referendum' is going to become the threat of choice.

England has fundamentally changed the situation for Scotland. Many Scots will have been motivated to vote to remain within the UK because of the EU. The EU said there was no guarantee of any membership fasttrack for Scotland, and no "assumed" EU membership on secession either.

Our government told them that if Scotland wanted to stay in the EU, they'd be best staying in the UK.
People voted for that.

England has fucked them.
If we've pushed them to leave? Let them.
Said as someone vehemently opposed to the breakup of the UK.

[CoraSpia]

Not really, because I imagine that most of the people who signed it already voted in the referendum for remain. If their was some massive disenfranchisement, it might happen, but their wasn't.

Of course it doesn't mean anything, but an argument for clear response could be made on the grounds that it is a symbolic opposition to such a grave course of action taken on a relatively slim majority.

You misquoted, by the way,

Sorry, I do that a lot when using a phone. Blind person. IPhone. Problems happen.

As symbolic as it is, I don't think it's as symbolic as the 16 million votes were. We already know a large amount of people oppose it. They voted a certain way.

[Souseiseki]

well mackonia what is your plan? what is UKIPs plan? boris plan? leave as a while might have one big plan, but sruely they all have working ideas of what they want? right?

[Greater Mackonia]

The Leave campaign cannot make any single set of 'plans' because the Leave campaign is not putting forward, and could not execute, any domestic programme, people with ideological leanings as diverse as Nigel Farage to allegedly Jeremy Corbyn and Kate Hoey back Leave, to claim "Leave aren't giving a clear alternative" is a spurious and irrelevant point. "Leave" is not a political party, "Leave" is not right-wing, or Tory, or UKIP, Leave is just that: Leaving the European Union. Whatever happens once Britain leaves the EU is in the hands of the incumbent government, what happens to immigration levels, the NHS, the rebate, Scotland and all other things is the prerogative of that reigning government: not "the Leave campaign" (there were like, three of them).

Of course, don't expect otherwise intelligent people who backed Remain to understand this and not say "hurr durr! we left the EU and immigration hasn't even gone down! Boris jpohnson wonts to privatise the EN-HACH-ESS anyway durr!" Leaving the EU is about having the ability to do those things, it cannot perform them in itself and it is deliberate stupidity on the part of Remainians to phrase it like that. Exactly how those policies are executed depends on the UK government.

And surprise, surprise, the North London media are now turning the non-issue of Scotland into some kind of legitimate concern, they'd rather break up the UK than see it leave the Humanist superstate.

Scottish secession is a legitimate concern. You severely underestimate the desire of the Scottish people to remain in the EU (all their council areas voted "remain", total result was 62% for remain, and that's disregarding the somewhat low turnout the scots had. That and the Scots have a "fuck you" mentality towards the English, similar to how the English have a "screw Europe" mentality.

Whether its a legitimate concern is utterly irrelevant. I'm well aware of the attitudes of the Scottish people, their attitudes are irrelevant. The Westminster Parliament decides whether a referendum can be held. A sensible government would just say "no" and carry on. This is not some inevitable process, a Scottish referendum happens when the London government is incompetent enough to allow one to happen. Which, no doubt, it will do out of spite.