A Briton tries to kill Trump

[The Portland Territory]

Well think about it: They waltz in here and we don't know who the hell they are. Trump has actually advocated for legal immigration and has stated that he even considers giving some illegals amnesty. But remember, we don't know who the hell they are. They could be drug dealers, murderers, rapers, and dangerous criminals. And many of them are.

It's not racist or xenophobic, it's protection of our own nation with logic and statistics

True, they could be. I don't think anybody is claiming that illegals who have or later do commit felonies shouldn't be punished. But our legal system has the presumption of innocence, so you can't just assume an illegal picked at random is a violent criminal either. The crime we do know they are guilty of is enter the country illegally/ overstaying a legal visa, and the discussion needs to be based on the extent of the punishment that crime deserves and what we can effectively implement. Deportation is certainly one option, but its one of many we nerd to consider.

Agreed. This is why we must stop illegal immigration so that the good immigrants can come in and the bad ones stay out

Well think about it: They waltz in here and we don't know who the hell they are. Trump has actually advocated for legal immigration and has stated that he even considers giving some illegals amnesty. But remember, we don't know who the hell they are. They could be drug dealers, murderers, rapers, and dangerous criminals. And many of them are.

It's not racist or xenophobic, it's protection of our own nation with logic and statistics

This kind of "I don't know who they are, so they must be a threat" logic is ridiculous. Do you have [i]any statistics to back up your/Trump's claims that "many" undocumented immigrants are "drug dealers"/"murderers"/"rapers"/etc.

[/i]
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/ ... nts-crime/
And this is from CNN, a major Liberal outlet so don't cry about bias to me

[Freefall11111]

True, they could be. I don't think anybody is claiming that illegals who have or later do commit felonies shouldn't be punished. But our legal system has the presumption of innocence, so you can't just assume an illegal picked at random is a violent criminal either. The crime we do know they are guilty of is enter the country illegally/ overstaying a legal visa, and the discussion needs to be based on the extent of the punishment that crime deserves and what we can effectively implement. Deportation is certainly one option, but its one of many we nerd to consider.

Agreed. This is why we must stop illegal immigration so that the good immigrants can come in and the bad ones stay out

This kind of "I don't know who they are, so they must be a threat" logic is ridiculous. Do you have [i]any statistics to back up your/Trump's claims that "many" undocumented immigrants are "drug dealers"/"murderers"/"rapers"/etc.

[/i]
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/ ... nts-crime/
And this is from CNN, a major Liberal outlet so don't cry about bias to me

So you're saying 73k out of 12 million is "many" in your mind?

[Gauthier]

True, they could be. I don't think anybody is claiming that illegals who have or later do commit felonies shouldn't be punished. But our legal system has the presumption of innocence, so you can't just assume an illegal picked at random is a violent criminal either. The crime we do know they are guilty of is enter the country illegally/ overstaying a legal visa, and the discussion needs to be based on the extent of the punishment that crime deserves and what we can effectively implement. Deportation is certainly one option, but its one of many we nerd to consider.

Agreed. This is why we must stop illegal immigration so that the good immigrants can come in and the bad ones stay out

This kind of "I don't know who they are, so they must be a threat" logic is ridiculous. Do you have [i]any statistics to back up your/Trump's claims that "many" undocumented immigrants are "drug dealers"/"murderers"/"rapers"/etc.

[/i]
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/ ... nts-crime/
And this is from CNN, a major Liberal outlet so don't cry about bias to me

The same CNN that had a crew embedded with the Tea Party Express and generally kissed up to the Tea Party. Liberal indeed.

[The Portland Territory]

Well think about it: They waltz in here and we don't know who the hell they are. Trump has actually advocated for legal immigration and has stated that he even considers giving some illegals amnesty. But remember, we don't know who the hell they are. They could be drug dealers, murderers, rapers, and dangerous criminals. And many of them are.

It's not racist or xenophobic, it's protection of our own nation with logic and statistics

This kind of "I don't know who they are, so they must be a threat" logic is ridiculous. Do you have any statistics to back up your/Trump's claims that "many" undocumented immigrants are "drug dealers"/"murderers"/"rapers"/etc.

Also:
http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of ... gal-aliens

[Utceforp]

True, they could be. I don't think anybody is claiming that illegals who have or later do commit felonies shouldn't be punished. But our legal system has the presumption of innocence, so you can't just assume an illegal picked at random is a violent criminal either. The crime we do know they are guilty of is enter the country illegally/ overstaying a legal visa, and the discussion needs to be based on the extent of the punishment that crime deserves and what we can effectively implement. Deportation is certainly one option, but its one of many we nerd to consider.

Agreed. This is why we must stop illegal immigration so that the good immigrants can come in and the bad ones stay out

This kind of "I don't know who they are, so they must be a threat" logic is ridiculous. Do you have [i]any statistics to back up your/Trump's claims that "many" undocumented immigrants are "drug dealers"/"murderers"/"rapers"/etc.

[/i]
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/ ... nts-crime/
And this is from CNN, a major Liberal outlet so don't cry about bias to me

Immigrant advocates say that's far from the truth, adding that it's important to look at how the term ICE uses when it talks about convicted criminals -- "criminal alien" -- is defined.

"Government statistics on who is being removed from the country can be somewhat deceptive," says Walter Ewing, a senior researcher for the American Immigration Council who helped author a report released this week that argues immigrants are less likely to be criminals than native-born U.S. citizens.

"Immigrants who experience even the slightest brush with the criminal justice system, such as being convicted of a misdemeanor, can find themselves subject to detention for an undetermined period, after which they are expelled from the country and barred from returning," the report says. "In other words, for years the government has been redefining what it means to be a 'criminal alien,' using increasingly stringent definitions and standards of 'criminality' that do not apply to U.S. citizens."


121

The number of people released from immigration custody who were later charged with murder between 2010 and 2014, according to figures from the Department of Homeland Security cited in a recent letter from two U.S. senators. That's about a thousandth of a percent of the total estimated number of unauthorized immigrants in the United States.

Thanks, man, you've provided me with some more evidence for my position.

[The Portland Territory]

Agreed. This is why we must stop illegal immigration so that the good immigrants can come in and the bad ones stay out
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/ ... nts-crime/
And this is from CNN, a major Liberal outlet so don't cry about bias to me

So you're saying 73k out of 12 million is "many" in your mind?

Yes. Go to a crowd of 73k people and come back to me.

But seriously, listen to me and Trump's statement. We advocate for legal immigration. We understand that they have very hard lies and come to America to live a better life. If this is the case, then they can come in legally so they can be screened properly and enter the US and live a better life. Now, the reason for tighter border security and the wall is to keep the bad illegals out. And what is bad about that?

Agreed. This is why we must stop illegal immigration so that the good immigrants can come in and the bad ones stay out
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/ ... nts-crime/
And this is from CNN, a major Liberal outlet so don't cry about bias to me

The same CNN that had a crew embedded with the Tea Party Express and generally kissed up to the Tea Party. Liberal indeed.

Well, it's the same one who would love to see Trump in the grave rather than the oval office.

Though, Trump does make them a lot of money via media coverage......

[New Granadeseret]

No matter which century you are in if you march people over a long distance without sufficient food and shelter many of them will die.

You're assuming the plan (if it even exists, which it almost assuredly doesn't given that it's Trump we're talking about) would involve marching anyone anywhere. Deportations aren't done that way nowadays.

In practical terms, you'd probably need to develop a new branch of Federal law enforcement (Since international borders are a federal responsibility, and you'd need to have a uniform standard to avoid asylum or horribly unethical areas forming in violation of the law), who would put most of their resources into investigation; since racial profiling is illegal and just randomly pulling people over is too police-statish. Then those they do find would have to be tried before being sentenced to derportion. Its not going to be lynch mobs just pushing the brown people to the borders at gunpoint: not only is that unethical and likely unconstitutional: it'd also be ineffective and hit WAY too many legal residents to survive the litigation

[Freefall11111]

Yes. Go to a crowd of 73k people and come back to me.

I don't think you understand how relativity works.

Not that 73k is an accurate number. The majority of crimes aren't rape or murder.

[The Portland Territory]

Agreed. This is why we must stop illegal immigration so that the good immigrants can come in and the bad ones stay out
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politics/ ... nts-crime/
And this is from CNN, a major Liberal outlet so don't cry about bias to me

Immigrant advocates say that's far from the truth, adding that it's important to look at how the term ICE uses when it talks about convicted criminals -- "criminal alien" -- is defined.

"Government statistics on who is being removed from the country can be somewhat deceptive," says Walter Ewing, a senior researcher for the American Immigration Council who helped author a report released this week that argues immigrants are less likely to be criminals than native-born U.S. citizens.

"Immigrants who experience even the slightest brush with the criminal justice system, such as being convicted of a misdemeanor, can find themselves subject to detention for an undetermined period, after which they are expelled from the country and barred from returning," the report says. "In other words, for years the government has been redefining what it means to be a 'criminal alien,' using increasingly stringent definitions and standards of 'criminality' that do not apply to U.S. citizens."


121

The number of people released from immigration custody who were later charged with murder between 2010 and 2014, according to figures from the Department of Homeland Security cited in a recent letter from two U.S. senators. That's about a thousandth of a percent of the total estimated number of unauthorized immigrants in the United States.

Thanks, man, you've provided me with some more evidence for my position.

A thousandth is still a lot in the number of 11 Million+

[The Portland Territory]

Yes. Go to a crowd of 73k people and come back to me.

I don't think you understand how relativity works.

Not that 73k is an accurate number. The majority of crimes aren't rape or murder.

Hey, theres a jar of one thousand jelly beans but one of them is poisonous and will kill you. Go, eat it.

All I'm saying is that we must take better precautions to protect our own citizens before we take in more

[Freefall11111]

Hey, theres a jar of one thousand jelly beans but one of them is poisonous and will kill you. Go, eat it.

I would, because, unlike you, I've actually studied statistics and understand that 0.1% is a very small chance.

All I'm saying is that we must take better precautions to protect our own citizens before we take in more

Which has nothing to do with Trump's rhetoric being objectively wrong.

[Utceforp]

This kind of "I don't know who they are, so they must be a threat" logic is ridiculous. Do you have any statistics to back up your/Trump's claims that "many" undocumented immigrants are "drug dealers"/"murderers"/"rapers"/etc.

Also:
http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of ... gal-aliens

*Disregarding Portland's previous instruction and cries "BIAS" as loudly as possible*

Yeah, I did a bit of research, and FAIR has been called a hate group in the past and has ties with a couple unambiguously racist organizations like the Pioneer Fund.

[The Portland Territory]

Also:
http://www.fairus.org/issue/examples-of ... gal-aliens

*Disregarding Portland's previous instruction and cries "BIAS" as loudly as possible*

Yeah, I did a bit of research, and FAIR has been called a hate group in the past and has ties with a couple unambiguously racist organizations like the Pioneer Fund.

That's........ Not an article. That's a list of crimes committed by illegals. It's not false statistics, it's fact that is registered at the federal level

[The Portland Territory]

Hey, theres a jar of one thousand jelly beans but one of them is poisonous and will kill you. Go, eat it.

I would, because, unlike you, I've actually studied statistics and understand that 0.1% is a very small chance.

All I'm saying is that we must take better precautions to protect our own citizens before we take in more

Which has nothing to do with Trump's rhetoric being objectively wrong.

Ok then, have fun

Define "objectively wrong" please. Would it be "trying to defend the lives of many Americans by advocating of legal immigration"?

[Freefall11111]

Define "objectively wrong" please.

Objective. Wrong.

Would it be "trying to defend the lives of many Americans by advocating of legal immigration"?

None of this relates to claiming that "many" illegal immigrants (specifically Mexicans, Trump seems to ignore all the other ones in this context) are rapists and murderers, a claim which is, again, objectively wrong.

[Utceforp]

*Disregarding Portland's previous instruction and cries "BIAS" as loudly as possible*

Yeah, I did a bit of research, and FAIR has been called a hate group in the past and has ties with a couple unambiguously racist organizations like the Pioneer Fund.

That's........ Not an article. That's a list of crimes committed by illegals. It's not false statistics, it's fact that is registered at the federal level

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I counted 42 people in that list. I don't think 42 people can be used to generalize any reasonably-sized population, especially if those 42 people are cherry-picked by an organization with an obvious bias like FAIR.

[The Portland Territory]

And yes, I know that it is a post from the Constitution Party, but it gives credible citations and live accounts from border guards, officials, and people

http://www.constitutionparty.com/illega ... ims/#_ftn4

[New Granadeseret]

I don't think you understand how relativity works.

Not that 73k is an accurate number. The majority of crimes aren't rape or murder.

Hey, theres a jar of one thousand jelly beans but one of them is poisonous and will kill you. Go, eat it.

All I'm saying is that we must take better precautions to protect our own citizens before we take in more

Yet, doesn't our own population also produce criminals? What you need is a way to sift out the poisonous jelly beans: or, in this case, background checks on perspective immigrants and no special mercy for those caught preforming these terrible crimes. A system to catch current illegal residents could also get background checks from the country of origin, and I doubt most people would complain if we expelled convicted rapists or drug lords (Though, in that case it might just be better in some instances to jail them in a U.S prison, particularly with Cartel influence is areas of Latin America).

But that crime is separate from the crime of illegal residence, which is where I think most people diverge with Trump. His opponents would say deportion is not the right punishment for illegal residence. There is room for debate here. I will, however, say that deporting children born in the U.S isen't right, as they would be citizens whose presence is not itself criminal.

[The Portland Territory]

Define "objectively wrong" please.

Objective. Wrong.

Would it be "trying to defend the lives of many Americans by advocating of legal immigration"?

None of this relates to claiming that "many" illegal immigrants (specifically Mexicans, Trump seems to ignore all the other ones in this context) are rapists and murderers, a claim which is, again, objectively wrong.

Ah yes, I love the old smart ass response

But many of them are! Why should we risk it! I would take action if 10 Americans were murdered by illegals! We have to actually think about the American people and begin to screen all immigrants and kick all of the criminals out! What don't you bloody get?

[Greed and Death]

You're assuming the plan (if it even exists, which it almost assuredly doesn't given that it's Trump we're talking about) would involve marching anyone anywhere. Deportations aren't done that way nowadays.

In practical terms, you'd probably need to develop a new branch of Federal law enforcement (Since international borders are a federal responsibility, and you'd need to have a uniform standard to avoid asylum or horribly unethical areas forming in violation of the law), who would put most of their resources into investigation; since racial profiling is illegal and just randomly pulling people over is too police-statish. Then those they do find would have to be tried before being sentenced to derportion. Its not going to be lynch mobs just pushing the brown people to the borders at gunpoint: not only is that unethical and likely unconstitutional: it'd also be ineffective and hit WAY too many legal residents to survive the litigation

Just deputize some citizen volunteers give them guns and ammo and tell them to march all those people who do not look like them south.

[Freefall11111]

But many of them are!

Less than 73k out of 12 million is not many. You don't seem to be capable of comprehending scale, an important part of any policy creation.

and begin to screen all immigrants and kick all of the criminals out!

Immigrants are "screened". The vast majority of illegal immigrants simply don't leave after their visa expires. "Screening more" wouldn't do a thing.

What don't you bloody get?

How you're so ignorant about how scale and immigration actually work in the real world.

[Nundai]

But...guns aren't known to be too difficult to get hold of in America. Was their seriously no easier way to get hold of one?

Yeah, I heard you can just get them out of vending machines. Strange, huh.

Not quite out of vending machines, but at a gun show, you can purchase one with no background check. Not even on your age. A thirteen year old can buy a gun in the us.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/video-shows-13-year-old-buy-a-gun-on-first-try/vp-AAheIgH

[The Portland Territory]

Hey, theres a jar of one thousand jelly beans but one of them is poisonous and will kill you. Go, eat it.

All I'm saying is that we must take better precautions to protect our own citizens before we take in more

Yet, doesn't our own population also produce criminals? What you need is a way to sift out the poisonous jelly beans: or, in this case, background checks on perspective immigrants and no special mercy for those caught preforming these terrible crimes. A system to catch current illegal residents could also get background checks from the country of origin, and I doubt most people would complain if we expelled convicted rapists or drug lords (Though, in that case it might just be better in some instances to jail them in a U.S prison, particularly with Cartel influence is areas of Latin America).

Dude, that's literally what Ive been saying all along

But that crime is separate from the crime of illegal residence, which is where I think most people diverge with Trump. His opponents would say deportion is not the right punishment for illegal residence. There is room for debate here. I will, however, say that deporting children born in the U.S isen't right, as they would be citizens whose presence is not itself criminal.

I do agree with what you say, which may come out surprising. Most illegals want better lives here, and if they prove that they are good, then they should stay. Also, if an illegal comes here and has a kid, the kid should become a US citizen but the parents shouldn't until they are screened and given the O-K

[The Portland Territory]

But many of them are!

Less than 73k out of 12 million is not many. You don't seem to be capable of comprehending scale, an important part of any policy creation.

and begin to screen all immigrants and kick all of the criminals out!

Immigrants are "screened". The vast majority of illegal immigrants simply don't leave after their visa expires. "Screening more" wouldn't do a thing.

What don't you bloody get?

How you're so ignorant about how scale and immigration actually work in the real world.

Freefall, listen to me. I don't give a shit if it's 0.0000000001% of illegals that are criminals! The fact that thousands of them are criminals and most of them (criminals) are violent and have killed Americans is sickening. We need to protect the American people first instead of letting in everybody!

Also, *citation needed*

[Freefall11111]

Freefall, listen to me. I don't give a shit if it's 0.0000000001% of illegals that are criminals! The fact that thousands of them are criminals and most of them (criminals) are violent and have killed Americans is sickening. We need to protect the American people first instead of letting in everybody!

You seriously overestimate how lenient the American immigration system is if you think "everybody" is being let in. Start here. Read through that and then dare to tell me that the US immigration system is anything but strict.

Also, *citation needed*

For most illegal immigrants being overstayers? Sure.