Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[Gauthier]

Muslims are like Gambit, anything they touch turns explosive.

Like Leftists with everything they try to defend.

Including Islam. Please stop ignoring the gravity of the fundamentalist problem.

Omar Mateen was an unstable rageaholic who claimed to be a jihadi for attention and self-rationalization despite the fact he got piss drunk at the nightclub over 3 years and pledged allegiance to jihadi groups that specifically hate each other. I'll worry about fundamentalism when an actual fundamentalist makes a move against the country rather than some angry nutcake who gave Islamaphobes an ideal strawman.

[Freefall11111]

Trump is in no way homophobic, unless you're one of those folks who decide anyone who isn't constantly and actively fighting for not only LGBT rights but also all of the leftist policies that are expected to go along with them is homophobic. He's indifferent at worst.

Except for that one part where he promised to overturn Obergefell v Hodges.

[Jochizyd Republic]

SJW is the new communism. Call someone you can't stand an SJW and watch the public swarm over them like zombies.

Where? Where does this happen? I want to move there. Because where I am, at a university campus, that sort of thing happens, but only when someone calls you.... a... a.... trump supporter. Or any number of insults (founded or not),e.g. a racist, homophobe, sexist, et cetera.

Actually. It does happen whenever support non extreme forms of Islam and many ethnicities living in the same country.

Fair point with the college campuses.

[Patridam]

Like Leftists with everything they try to defend.

Including Islam. Please stop ignoring the gravity of the fundamentalist problem.

Omar Mateen was an unstable rageaholic who claimed to be a jihadi for attention and self-rationalization despite the fact he got piss drunk at the nightclub over 3 years and pledged allegiance to jihadi groups that specifically hate each other. I'll worry about fundamentalism when an actual fundamentalist makes a move against the country rather than some angry nutcake who gave Islamaphobes an ideal strawman.

It seems like people like yourself are literally doing EVERYTHING they possibly can, all sorts of mental acrobatics and blame shifting, to avoid holding this man's religion and his interpretation thereof accountable in any way whatsoever with regards to this attack. I will agree there are aggravating factors that had nothing to do with Islam, but the mental maneuvers necessary to hold all of Islam, radical and otherwise, totally innocent is too much for me.

[Asloiji]

Does love really win in the end?

Through the bickering and the anger and the politics, yes. A group of people standing together and loving each other through hard times is always stronger than hatred.

This type of love will continue... only to fight for a short-lived glory on earth until her last breath. What becomes of it afterwards?

[Minzerland]

No. To the contrary actually.

Do you live in some kind of liberal bastion? Such people exist in many places in the West, usually in the lower class.

I live in Australia.

[Camicon]

That's not what happened. The Sky News anchors were trying to claim that this was an attack against, essentially, "freedom", and not against LGBT people in particular. And Jones didn't "[run] off in disgust" when the anchors didn't agree with him, he walked away from an "interview" where they repeatedly shouted him down and refused to let him explain his position.

This wasn't a case of "liberal and LGBT politics" not engaging with an opposing view because it is an opposing view; this was a man walking away from an attempt by two individuals to use him as a prop in their transparent attempt to manipulate the narrative around a truly horrific event so that it reinforces their objectively incorrect worldview.

You can disagree with his walking off, but at least don't lie about why he walked off.

Anyone should be prepared for an interview to become a debate when they go on TV if they have an opinion different from the talking head of the station. It happens when liberals go on conservative stations, and when conservative stations. He had a point and they weren't exactly making it easy for him to explain it, but he respected their point even less then they did his - "YOU JUST DON'T GET IT."

It wasn't a debate, it was a PR stunt by Sky News. Jones wasn't being allowed to speak; he was constantly talked over and shouted at. What goes on in the media, when left-wing guests show up on right-wing shows and vice versa, is irrelevant to the analysis of this particular event.

Jones refused to be used by Sky News to manipulate coverage of what was, as he noted, "the worst targeted mass killing of LGBT people in the western world since the Holocaust". Disagree with that if you want, but don't lie about what happened; that's what Sky News tried to do, and it's just as bullshit when you do it.

[Minzerland]

SJW is the new communism. Call someone you can't stand an SJW and watch the public swarm over them like zombies.

There is truth in that. Absolutely. "Bigotry/Racism" acts this way as well.

Everyone else reasonable person* is caught between the Tumblrina and the Alt Rightist. Smooshed between the love handles of two landwhales.

[Patridam]

It's opportunism at its finest. The only thing they hate more than LGBTs are Muslims so when this happened they got to act like they were on the side of LGBTs all along and wailing crocodile tears while bemoaning how the country is too SJW to crack down on the Muslim Menace.

I literally had to turn off my computer and go do something calming after reading that Ted Cruz released a statement calling for Democrats to "stand up" for LGBT people by supporting a full-on shooting war with Daesh... when in November he and Jindal had no problem sharing a stage with a pastor who, merely moments before introducing Cruz, said that gay people were "deserving of death".

Here's hoping that event does to homophobia what the holocaust did to antisemitism.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Omar Mateen was an unstable rageaholic who claimed to be a jihadi for attention and self-rationalization despite the fact he got piss drunk at the nightclub over 3 years and pledged allegiance to jihadi groups that specifically hate each other. I'll worry about fundamentalism when an actual fundamentalist makes a move against the country rather than some angry nutcake who gave Islamaphobes an ideal strawman.

It seems like people like yourself are literally doing EVERYTHING they possibly can, all sorts of mental acrobatics and blame shifting, to avoid holding this man's religion and his interpretation thereof accountable in any way whatsoever with regards to this attack. I will agree there are aggravating factors that had nothing to do with Islam, but the mental maneuvers necessary to hold all of Islam, radical and otherwise, totally innocent is too much for me.

The man was drinking at a gay club on a regular basis for quite some time before he took this action.

How serious a Muslim could he have possibly been?

I mean, I have no doubt that his religion played a part, but when you consider that there isn't much of a history of American Muslims targeting the LGBT community, and that by pledging allegiance to Daeash AND Hezbollah he was doing the equivalent of claming membership in the Bloods AND the Crips, what we have is a picture of a self-hating closet case who used his religion as an excuse to take out his rage on the gay community, and who obviously had no previous association with (or, for that matter, accurate information regarding) the groups he claimed to be doing this on behalf of.

[Patridam]

How serious a Muslim could he have possibly been?

If we accept the unconfirmed premise that he was a closeted homosexual?

A very very serious but very very self-loathing one. A man who, yes, had existential hatred towards gays, both because his religion encouraged it and because he couldn't come to grips with his own sexuality, and a man who tried to do everything he could to atone for his homosexuality to his god by bringing down judgement upon other gays, and by advancing the political cause of radical Islam globally.

[Luminesa]

Through the bickering and the anger and the politics, yes. A group of people standing together and loving each other through hard times is always stronger than hatred.

This type of love will continue... only to fight for a short-lived glory on earth until her last breath. What becomes of it afterwards?

It continues, in the hearts of the people who truly want to keep it alive.

[Gauthier]

How serious a Muslim could he have possibly been?

If we accept the unconfirmed premise that he was a closeted homosexual?

A very very serious but very very self-loathing one. A man who, yes, had existential hatred towards gays, both because his religion encouraged it and because he couldn't come to grips with his own sexuality, and a man who tried to do everything he could to atone for his homosexuality to his god by bringing down judgement upon other gays, and by advancing the political cause of radical Islam globally.

Drinking at a gay nightclub over 3 years.

Devout Muslim indeed.

[Oneracon]

I literally had to turn off my computer and go do something calming after reading that Ted Cruz released a statement calling for Democrats to "stand up" for LGBT people by supporting a full-on shooting war with Daesh... when in November he and Jindal had no problem sharing a stage with a pastor who, merely moments before introducing Cruz, said that gay people were "deserving of death".

Oh shit. Who was that?

Kevin Swanson, at the National Religious Liberties Conference.

[Asloiji]

This type of love will continue... only to fight for a short-lived glory on earth until her last breath. What becomes of it afterwards?

It continues, in the hearts of the people who truly want to keep it alive.

I hate to break it to you... but this love will not live forever.

[Occupied Deutschland]

It seems like people like yourself are literally doing EVERYTHING they possibly can, all sorts of mental acrobatics and blame shifting, to avoid holding this man's religion and his interpretation thereof accountable in any way whatsoever with regards to this attack. I will agree there are aggravating factors that had nothing to do with Islam, but the mental maneuvers necessary to hold all of Islam, radical and otherwise, totally innocent is too much for me.

The man was drinking at a gay club on a regular basis for quite some time before he took this action.

How serious a Muslim could he have possibly been?

Muslims are banned from drinking alcohol.
Despite this, consumption of alcohol in Muslim communities even within the fundamentalist sectors of the Middle East (Saudi Arabia being of some note just because its still chopping off folks' heads and such) exists with wink-and-nod acknowledgement of the religious ban. Perfectly serious Muslims can and do still drink alcohol. Islam in the US, meanwhile, has experienced a decided liberalization compared to its fundamentalist cousin in Saudi Arabia. LGBT Muslims exist, and there are strains of Islam that aren't fundamentally at odds with those individuals nature (granted, they are in conflict with many of the fundamentalist strains and, from what I've seen, about as common as unitarians at the Catholic Church, but I digress...).

Mateen easily could have been raised or flirted with liberal strains of Islam and then been radicalized or drawn in by more fundamentalist and unaccepting versions as a reaction to what he saw in himself (similar to the way some Christian gays voluntarily undergo conversion therapy or suppress their homosexual desires).

[Patridam]

If we accept the unconfirmed premise that he was a closeted homosexual?

A very very serious but very very self-loathing one. A man who, yes, had existential hatred towards gays, both because his religion encouraged it and because he couldn't come to grips with his own sexuality, and a man who tried to do everything he could to atone for his homosexuality to his god by bringing down judgement upon other gays, and by advancing the political cause of radical Islam globally.

Drinking at a gay nightclub over 3 years.

Devout Muslim indeed.

Did you not see the part about self loathing because he couldn't reconcile his homosexuality and devout religion? And about atoning for his preference?

Believe it or not there are gay muslims, plenty of them. Presumably, if the proportion of persons with a preference for homosexuality is relatively constant and it is not a conscious decision, a bit under 10% of Muslims are gay. It's an existential crisis even for the more liberal Muslims, let alone the radical ones.

[Gauthier]

Drinking at a gay nightclub over 3 years.

Devout Muslim indeed.

Did you not see the part about self loathing because he couldn't reconcile his homosexuality and devout religion? And about atoning for his preference?

Believe it or not there are gay muslims, plenty of them. Presumably, if the preference for homosexuality is relatively constant and not a concious decision, a bit under 10% of Muslims are gay. It's an existential crisis even for the more liberal Muslims, let alone the radical ones.

I presume most of those gay Muslims don't get piss drunk either.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Like Leftists with everything they try to defend.

Including Islam. Please stop ignoring the gravity of the fundamentalist problem.

Omar Mateen was an unstable rageaholic who claimed to be a jihadi for attention and self-rationalization despite the fact he got piss drunk at the nightclub over 3 years and pledged allegiance to jihadi groups that specifically hate each other. I'll worry about fundamentalism when an actual fundamentalist makes a move against the country rather than some angry nutcake who gave Islamaphobes an ideal strawman.

He was a terrorist sympathizer with hateful views of homosexuals with grounding in his Takfiri upbringing.

It was the fault of radical Islam.

And also, there are/were speakers in a nearby mosque saying that Homosexuals should die. Give it up. It's a problem.
https://youtu.be/qBlwxqqAprQ

[Jochizyd Republic]

If we accept the unconfirmed premise that he was a closeted homosexual?

A very very serious but very very self-loathing one. A man who, yes, had existential hatred towards gays, both because his religion encouraged it and because he couldn't come to grips with his own sexuality, and a man who tried to do everything he could to atone for his homosexuality to his god by bringing down judgement upon other gays, and by advancing the political cause of radical Islam globally.

Drinking at a gay nightclub over 3 years.

Devout Muslim indeed.

Could have just been singling out targets.

[Patridam]

Did you not see the part about self loathing because he couldn't reconcile his homosexuality and devout religion? And about atoning for his preference?

Believe it or not there are gay muslims, plenty of them. Presumably, if the preference for homosexuality is relatively constant and not a concious decision, a bit under 10% of Muslims are gay. It's an existential crisis even for the more liberal Muslims, let alone the radical ones.

I presume most of those gay Muslims don't get piss drunk either.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

How serious a Muslim could he have possibly been?

If we accept the unconfirmed premise that he was a closeted homosexual?

A very very serious but very very self-loathing one. A man who, yes, had existential hatred towards gays, both because his religion encouraged it and because he couldn't come to grips with his own sexuality, and a man who tried to do everything he could to atone for his homosexuality to his god by bringing down judgement upon other gays, and by advancing the political cause of radical Islam globally.

It's not just the gay sex. It's also the drinking. He wore his religion like an accessory, using it as an excuse for his awful behavior, just like fanatics of any religion throughout history. I don't blame the religion for that. I blame the people who use it in that manner.

[Patridam]

If we accept the unconfirmed premise that he was a closeted homosexual?

A very very serious but very very self-loathing one. A man who, yes, had existential hatred towards gays, both because his religion encouraged it and because he couldn't come to grips with his own sexuality, and a man who tried to do everything he could to atone for his homosexuality to his god by bringing down judgement upon other gays, and by advancing the political cause of radical Islam globally.

It's not just the gay sex. It's also the drinking. He wore his religion like an accessory, using it as an excuse for his awful behavior, just like fanatics of any religion throughout history. I don't blame the religion for that. I blame the people who use it in that manner.

And you would lump ISIS the Daesh and other radical islamic terror organizations in that group of people who use religion as an excuse?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The man was drinking at a gay club on a regular basis for quite some time before he took this action.

How serious a Muslim could he have possibly been?

Muslims are banned from drinking alcohol.
Despite this, consumption of alcohol in Muslim communities even within the fundamentalist sectors of the Middle East (Saudi Arabia being of some note just because its still chopping off folks' heads and such) exists with wink-and-nod acknowledgement of the religious ban. Perfectly serious Muslims can and do still drink alcohol. Islam in the US, meanwhile, has experienced a decided liberalization compared to its fundamentalist cousin in Saudi Arabia. LGBT Muslims exist, and there are strains of Islam that aren't fundamentally at odds with those individuals nature (granted, they are in conflict with many of the fundamentalist strains and, from what I've seen, about as common as unitarians at the Catholic Church, but I digress...).

Mateen easily could have been raised or flirted with liberal strains of Islam and then been radicalized or drawn in by more fundamentalist and unaccepting versions as a reaction to what he saw in himself (similar to the way some Christian gays voluntarily undergo conversion therapy or suppress their homosexual desires).

I'm aware that Muslims do drink despite the ban (As do many Mormons, Baptists , and others from religions that frown upon drinking), but the fact that he was drinking, using gay dating apps, and hanging out in a gay club while being in abusive relationships with two women would seem to indicate that this was more about self-hatred than attempting to strike a blow for any particular ideology, though I'm sure that it was some comfort to use Islam as an excuse so that he didn't have to face up to his real reasons for doing so.

[Oneracon]

Trump is in no way homophobic, unless you're one of those folks who decide anyone who isn't constantly and actively fighting for not only LGBT rights but also all of the leftist policies that are expected to go along with them is homophobic. He's indifferent at worst.

Except for that one part where he promised to overturn Obergefell v Hodges.

And when he told the Faith and Freedom Coalition's Road to Majority conference that he was "with [them] 100 percent"... and when he pledged to support the so-called First Amendment Defense Act which would allow anyone (including federal government agencies and employees) to deny services to LGBT people if it "conflicts with their religious belief"...