Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[Expectareaction]

I know in MI his DV would've prohibited him from purchasing.

[Patridam]

Well, I can certainly agree with the cole ad on one count: the US needs to drastically overhaul and improve its system of care for the mentally ill.

[Novus America]

"All can access guns", what a crock. Mental health history shows up on NICS background checks. Had the FBI done more thorough investigations into him, or had his wife reported him for his aggressive tendencies, Omar would never have gotten approval to purchase guns legally.

Mental Illness does not show up on NICS unless you've gone through the courts because of it or been committed.
Plenty of people are diagnosed with Mental Illness and don't fit that criteria, most mentally ill people would not show up on NICS.

Which is a problem. The VT guy was even committed for a short time and that did not show up. But we need to commit people like the guy who did this shooting. We very rarely commit people anymore. We used to commit too many, but we have swung the pendulum too far the other way, and now commit too few, as evidenced by the rise of these sort of crimes.

[Novus America]

I know in MI his DV would've prohibited him from purchasing.

Domestic violence would prohibit him anywhere. His wife did not properly report him.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesti ... er_Gun_Ban

[Patridam]

Mental Illness does not show up on NICS unless you've gone through the courts because of it or been committed.
Plenty of people are diagnosed with Mental Illness and don't fit that criteria, most mentally ill people would not show up on NICS.

Which is a problem. The VT guy was even committed for a short time and that did not show up. But we need to commit people like the guy who did this shooting. We very rarely commit people anymore. We used to commit too many, but we have swung the pendulum too far the other way, and now commit too few, as evidenced by the rise of these sort of crimes.

Well, we stopped committing people in the 60s simply due to the state all our asylums were in. Arkham Asylum wasn't too far off base from what happens when you let a massive Victorian building go understaffed, unmaintained, underfunded, and overcrowded for decades.

[Expectareaction]

Mental Illness does not show up on NICS unless you've gone through the courts because of it or been committed.
Plenty of people are diagnosed with Mental Illness and don't fit that criteria, most mentally ill people would not show up on NICS.

Which is a problem. The VT guy was even committed for a short time and that did not show up. But we need to commit people like the guy who did this shooting. We very rarely commit people anymore. We used to commit too many, but we have swung the pendulum too far the other way, and now commit too few, as evidenced by the rise of these sort of crimes.

A gross lack of long term mental health facilities make commitment unlikely.
I believe there should be a measure of report discretion from mental health professionals, as in they report specific patients as being, at least temporarily not gun safe. They don't need to disclose the mental illness and thus don't violate HIPAA.

[Cerbrus87]

I live in the Orlando area and my heart hurts. I tear up seeing the victims pictures and seeing all the suffering from the families.

We must look deep down in ourselves and ask why are we killing other human beings around the world? Love and compassion are the most powerful tools we have to combat this problem.

[Novus America]

Which is a problem. The VT guy was even committed for a short time and that did not show up. But we need to commit people like the guy who did this shooting. We very rarely commit people anymore. We used to commit too many, but we have swung the pendulum too far the other way, and now commit too few, as evidenced by the rise of these sort of crimes.

Well, we stopped committing people in the 60s simply due to the state all our asylums were in. Arkham Asylum wasn't too far off base from what happens when you let a massive Victorian building go understaffed, unmaintained, underfunded, and overcrowded for decades.

Well yes, we need to have properly funded, staffed and supervised institutions. And only commit those who have violent tendencies. We need to bring the pendulum back to and stabilize it in the middle. Not go back to the old extremes, but also get away from our current extremes.

[Expectareaction]

I live in the Orlando area and my heart hurts. I tear up seeing the victims pictures and seeing all the suffering from the families.

We must look deep down in ourselves and ask why are we killing other human beings around the world? Love and compassion are the most powerful tools we have to combat this problem.

I agree.
But love and compassion will still be met with blood, for a long time.
So gut check-- can you be loving and compassionate when they still want you dead? That's what it takes.

[Olerand]

I agree they can be considered victims of radical preachers and recruiters, but even then, I wouldn't indulge in too much victimhood, lest it become de-responsiblization.

Certainly. But we should be careful with our victimhood labels. Being told Muslims are victims of the West who is out to get them is a primary talking point of Jihadi recruiters. Let's not allow ourselves to mimic them either.

Muslims are victims of fundamentalist revisionists and Arab Imperialists and if you don't recognize that as the major threat of which all others are branches of you are ignoring the problem.

But no, Muslims that say that the Scriptures are fine and the people need to change are part of the problem because conservatism makes you literally Abd al Wahhab.

What?

[Novus America]

Which is a problem. The VT guy was even committed for a short time and that did not show up. But we need to commit people like the guy who did this shooting. We very rarely commit people anymore. We used to commit too many, but we have swung the pendulum too far the other way, and now commit too few, as evidenced by the rise of these sort of crimes.

A gross lack of long term mental health facilities make commitment unlikely.
I believe there should be a measure of report discretion from mental health professionals, as in they report specific patients as being, at least temporarily not gun safe. They don't need to disclose the mental illness and thus don't violate HIPAA.

We need to rebuild our long term facilities. Just keeping the really violent away from guns is not enough.
I agree on the second part, but these people still might get guns illegally. Use a car or bomb. Stopping there access to guns is neccesary, but not enough.

[Expectareaction]

A gross lack of long term mental health facilities make commitment unlikely.
I believe there should be a measure of report discretion from mental health professionals, as in they report specific patients as being, at least temporarily not gun safe. They don't need to disclose the mental illness and thus don't violate HIPAA.

We need to rebuild our long term facilities. Just keeping the really violent away from guns is not enough.
I agree on the second part, but these people still might get guns illegally. Use a car or bomb. Stopping there access to guns is neccesary, but not enough.

The United States should always be very careful about removing rights form people based merely on what they might do, forced commitment is incarceration, doing that just because maybe someone might--leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I realize Orlando is the topic and 99 people brutalized leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. But ive been incarcerated, its no Bueno.

[Novus America]

We need to rebuild our long term facilities. Just keeping the really violent away from guns is not enough.
I agree on the second part, but these people still might get guns illegally. Use a car or bomb. Stopping there access to guns is neccesary, but not enough.

The United States should always be very careful about removing rights form people based merely on what they might do, forced commitment is incarceration, doing that just because maybe someone might--leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I realize Orlando is the topic and 99 people brutalized leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. But ive been incarcerated, its no Bueno.

Well there is a trade off. Forced commitment is the only way to stop these things. We did not have theses things before we shut down our mental health facilities. Yes it should be used carefully, but cleary this guy should have been commited.

[Expectareaction]

The United States should always be very careful about removing rights form people based merely on what they might do, forced commitment is incarceration, doing that just because maybe someone might--leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I realize Orlando is the topic and 99 people brutalized leaves a bad taste in my mouth too. But ive been incarcerated, its no Bueno.

Well there is a trade off. Forced commitment is the only way to stop these things. We did not have theses things before we shut down our mental health facilities. Yes it should be used carefully, but cleary this guy should have been commited.

I don't think it would have caught him.
I will say years ago I went to get a job as a nursing assistant, and I had a Domestic Violence ARREST, not conviction, and I couldn't get the job until I got that arrest cleared off my record.
Did his ex ever even call the police?

[Novus America]

Well there is a trade off. Forced commitment is the only way to stop these things. We did not have theses things before we shut down our mental health facilities. Yes it should be used carefully, but cleary this guy should have been commited.

I don't think it would have caught him.
I will say years ago I went to get a job as a nursing assistant, and I had a Domestic Violence ARREST, not conviction, and I couldn't get the job until I got that arrest cleared off my record.
Did his ex ever even call the police?

I do not think his ex ever called the police. It does not appear so.

But we can catch at least some. Band this guy had a history of issues. Again these things simply did not occur on this scale before deinstitutionalization. So cleary it can be done.

[Patridam]

Well, I'm almost tempted to get mad at his wife for failing to report him. But, had he not had access to guns legally he likely could have gotten them some other way or made a bomb, and possibly killed even more...

[Gauthier]

The wife is definitely going to do time.

[Galloism]

The wife is definitely going to do time.

If Donald Trump were president, he'd take her out in a drone strike.

[Gauthier]

The wife is definitely going to do time.

If Donald Trump were president, he'd take her out in a drone strike.

And then order Special Forces to kill Mateen's parents slowly.

[Luminesa]

I live in the Orlando area and my heart hurts. I tear up seeing the victims pictures and seeing all the suffering from the families.

We must look deep down in ourselves and ask why are we killing other human beings around the world? Love and compassion are the most powerful tools we have to combat this problem.

Faith, hope, and love are some good things He gave us.

And the greatest is love.

[Imperializt Russia]

Well, I'm almost tempted to get mad at his wife for failing to report him. But, had he not had access to guns legally he likely could have gotten them some other way or made a bomb, and possibly killed even more...

No, that's not likely.
If he'd bombed the place, he'd also probably have killed less.

[Calimera II]

Everything on the shooting to come out has come out, so I'm not sure what's left here, but the aftermath.

One example - Owen Jones, a gay writer and left-wing columnist appeared on Sky News (right-wing TV news channel - think as British Fox but less overt if that helps you), and walked off in disgust over what he felt was a whitewash of the nature of the attack - an attack against an LGBT venue, against its largely LGBT patrons.
He wrote an article on what he felt.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -sexuality

It was an attack against LGTB people and against human beings and the freedom of all people to try to enjoy themselves. I watched it, and to be honest, I think it's ridiculous to claim that what happened was an attempt to "ignore homophobia."

[Urran]

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/ ... food-bloo/


Apparently Chic Fil-A opened on Sunday to give free food to those giving blood and to first responders. So do you think this is a clever business ploy or do they actually care?

[Patridam]

Well, I'm almost tempted to get mad at his wife for failing to report him. But, had he not had access to guns legally he likely could have gotten them some other way or made a bomb, and possibly killed even more...

No, that's not likely.

Him accessing illegal guns? Any evidence behind why that' "not likely"?

If he'd bombed the place, he'd also probably have killed less.

Depends on how big the bomb was. Damn near 500 people were in the building overall...

[Utceforp]

Everything on the shooting to come out has come out, so I'm not sure what's left here, but the aftermath.

One example - Owen Jones, a gay writer and left-wing columnist appeared on Sky News (right-wing TV news channel - think as British Fox but less overt if that helps you), and walked off in disgust over what he felt was a whitewash of the nature of the attack - an attack against an LGBT venue, against its largely LGBT patrons.
He wrote an article on what he felt.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -sexuality

It was an attack against LGTB people and against human beings and the freedom of all people to try to enjoy themselves. I watched it, and to be honest, I think it's ridiculous to claim that what happened was an attempt to "ignore homophobia."

For your first point, I think the article agrees with you.

It is possible for an atrocity to be more than one thing at the same time. You are not compelled to select one option or the other.