Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[Novus America]

Yes, it is not easy. But not effective either. You have to jump through a ton of red tape that does nothing to stop the wrong people getting in.

One way to start is requiring psychological evaluations, like they do for the military. As well as background checks and a stricter loyalty oath. The guy praises the Taliban. There is no way that guy could pass a military background check and get a security clearance.

The Oath really doesn't solve much. I mean, the U.S. still respects dual citizenship. It's one of the few countries who are blatantly respectful of it.

I would, however, do say that people who come from dangerous grounds (think the current situation in Syria for instance), upon becoming citizens, we should not honor dual citizenship to those countries.

Well if the truly believe relgious law should overide other laws they hopefully will not take the oath.
I agree with that on dual citizenship. Which we might want to limit only to allies or prohibit altogether.

[Olerand]

No, we should still not call them victims nor consider them as such. Plenty of Westerners grow up in poverty, plenty more grow up in material deprivation, even more feel societally alienated. Victimhood is not the answer. Telling them they are victims is not the answer.

It depends whether you find this social isolation enough to consider them victims. Perhaps some are, to a degree, victims of recruiters and radical instigators. These youngsters could be considered victims in the same way child soldiers are victims. They're not victims in the classical definition of the word, no.

Not just muslim kids are drawn to radical islam. Social isolation and the wrong influence can push any kid towards radicalisation.

I agree they can be considered victims of radical preachers and recruiters, but even then, I wouldn't indulge in too much victimhood, lest it become de-responsiblization.

Certainly. But we should be careful with our victimhood labels. Being told Muslims are victims of the West who is out to get them is a primary talking point of Jihadi recruiters. Let's not allow ourselves to mimic them either.

[Imperializt Russia]

Have you ever considered using the proper English term when using the English language?

Anglosphere? But the Anglosphere, as far as I understand, is only a catch-all term to refer to countries where English is an official language. Anglo-Saxon is more than that, it is a form of organizing the State (particularly based on common law), an economic system (liberal capitalism), a societal system (multiculturalism) etc.
Does Anglosphere mean that?

"Anglo-Saxon" doesn't meant that either. Not in any sense that "Anglo-Saxons" have been told about.
-an "Anglo-Saxon"

[Novus America]

Sadly, I feel like the least likely to happen at of all of those is breaking ties with the Saudi oil barons. Don't forget, they fund terrorism.

It won't happen, certainly. But one can analyze.

Well yes, I am offering actual policies. Potential solutions. Neither policies nor solutions will actually ever happen. But yes we should be treating Saudi Arabia like the Soviet Union. Not like a friend. Because they are not.

[Gauthier]

My my, you really went digging here, didn't you? This was pages and pages ago. Well, no point in letting a dead horse lie- lemme go grab my stick...

Some of us work.

You're right, he'd been going there for three years. Getting to know the place, know the people, pick out who was gay and who was not, getting to know the layout of the structure, lines of fire, the whole nine yards. I'm very, very aware that he was a regular there. It's for that reason that the casing theory makes sense.

If it had been, say, the three months immediately prior maybe. Three weeks? Absolutely.

Three fucking years. That's not casing, that's "I'm going to snap and I'm going to do it in that place I always go".
He'd been taking people home from the place, supposedly.

Casing "theory" makes no sense.

He went Deep Cover Takfiri for Allah obviously!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The Oath really doesn't solve much. I mean, the U.S. still respects dual citizenship. It's one of the few countries who are blatantly respectful of it.

I would, however, do say that people who come from dangerous grounds (think the current situation in Syria for instance), upon becoming citizens, we should not honor dual citizenship to those countries.

Well if the truly believe relgious law should overide other laws they hopefully will not take the oath.
I agree with that on dual citizenship. Which we might want to limit only to allies or prohibit altogether.

I'm of the stance of "loyalty has a price", so I would be for limiting it to allies, but not prohibiting it altogether.

If they're allies to us, then they should enjoy benefits for being our allies.

[Olerand]

Anglosphere? But the Anglosphere, as far as I understand, is only a catch-all term to refer to countries where English is an official language. Anglo-Saxon is more than that, it is a form of organizing the State (particularly based on common law), an economic system (liberal capitalism), a societal system (multiculturalism) etc.
Does Anglosphere mean that?

"Anglo-Saxon" doesn't meant that either. Not in any sense that "Anglo-Saxons" have been told about.
-an "Anglo-Saxon"

In a Francophone and Continental understanding, it does. There is Anglo-Saxon liberalism, Anglo-Saxon democracy, Anglo-Saxon multiculturalism etc.

[Novus America]

I never said to ban all Muslims. But we do not need keep out Salafi and Wahhabi extremists.

And I do not disagree with you there. I just added that for the sake of clarity, not in response to you in particular.

Extremists should not go unchecked... regardless of faith.

Very true. We should not be letting in Lord's Resistance Army supporters either.

[Novus America]

Well if the truly believe relgious law should overide other laws they hopefully will not take the oath.
I agree with that on dual citizenship. Which we might want to limit only to allies or prohibit altogether.

I'm of the stance of "loyalty has a price", so I would be for limiting it to allies, but
not prohibiting it altogether.

If they're allies to us, then they should enjoy benefits for being our allies.

Fair enough. Limiting to allies only should be fine. And it is not like dual American Canadians are causing many problems either.

[Esternial]

It depends whether you find this social isolation enough to consider them victims. Perhaps some are, to a degree, victims of recruiters and radical instigators. These youngsters could be considered victims in the same way child soldiers are victims. They're not victims in the classical definition of the word, no.

Not just muslim kids are drawn to radical islam. Social isolation and the wrong influence can push any kid towards radicalisation.

I agree they can be considered victims of radical preachers and recruiters, but even then, I wouldn't indulge in too much victimhood, lest it become de-responsiblization.

Certainly. But we should be careful with our victimhood labels. Being told Muslims are victims of the West who is out to get them is a primary talking point of Jihadi recruiters. Let's not allow ourselves to mimic them either.

Oh, they're not victims of the West, that much is true.

[Imperializt Russia]

"Anglo-Saxon" doesn't meant that either. Not in any sense that "Anglo-Saxons" have been told about.
-an "Anglo-Saxon"

In a Francophone and Continental understanding, it does. There is Anglo-Saxon liberalism, Anglo-Saxon democracy, Anglo-Saxon multiculturalism etc.

No-one ever told us that.

Anglo-Saxon is a demographic group based on the ethnicity of, you guess it, a mix between the Angle people and the Saxon people. It's where we get the (largely pejorative) term, "WASP" for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, which is typically used to describe American Christians descended from British colonials, and much less Brits.

[Olerand]

In a Francophone and Continental understanding, it does. There is Anglo-Saxon liberalism, Anglo-Saxon democracy, Anglo-Saxon multiculturalism etc.

No-one ever told us that.

Anglo-Saxon is a demographic group based on the ethnicity of, you guess it, a mix between the Angle people and the Saxon people. It's where we get the (largely pejorative) term, "WASP" for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, which is typically used to describe American Christians descended from British colonials, and much less Brits.

I know of WASPs, but I don't understand how Anglo-Saxon can be an ethnicity. Who is ethnically Anglo-Saxon anymore? Where are the ethnic Franks? The Visigoths? The Burgundians?

Anglo-Saxon, in a Continental European understanding, refers to England and its descendant countries, and their way of running the State, the economy, society etc.

Either way, I believe we are moving away from the subject.

[The Black Forrest]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

Yes, sadly mental health is not brought up.
This is a very interesting article. Written before this shooting but no less relevant.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/det ... ion-murder

Indeed.

Kenneth Cole posts controversial billboard on guns and mental health.

http://themighty.com/2015/09/kenneth-co ... l-illness/

[Gauthier]

Yes, sadly mental health is not brought up.
This is a very interesting article. Written before this shooting but no less relevant.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/det ... ion-murder

Indeed.

Kenneth Cole posts controversial billboard on guns and mental health.

http://themighty.com/2015/09/kenneth-co ... l-illness/

The mentally ill being violent is denounced as a stereotype but Muslims being violently intolerant is mostly not.

[Expectareaction]

Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.

Not sure how the general Islamic faith can be criticized based on Mateen.

[Novus America]

Indeed.

Kenneth Cole posts controversial billboard on guns and mental health.

http://themighty.com/2015/09/kenneth-co ... l-illness/

The mentally ill being violent is denounced as a stereotype but Muslims being violently intolerant is mostly not.

Mental illness is so broad you can say little about it that applies to the whole thing. Most people who are mentally ill are not a threat to others. But some are, and those who are need to be treated properly.

The fact is the majority of these mass murders had a history of mental illness.

And the mentally ill should be given real care, not just given drugs and dumped in the streets.

[Gauthier]

The mentally ill being violent is denounced as a stereotype but Muslims being violently intolerant is mostly not.

Mental illness is so broad you can say little about it that applies to the whole thing. Most people who are mentally ill are not a threat to others. But some are, and those who are need to be treated properly.

And the mentally ill should be given real care, not just given drugs and dumped in the streets.

Problem being, the ones who are actually violent tend to be the ones buying guns as a few shootings in U.S. history proves.

[Liriena]

Anderson Cooper questioning Pam Bondi on her past anti-LGBT rhetoric is a small treasure.

[Novus America]

Mental illness is so broad you can say little about it that applies to the whole thing. Most people who are mentally ill are not a threat to others. But some are, and those who are need to be treated properly.

And the mentally ill should be given real care, not just given drugs and dumped in the streets.

Problem being, the ones who are actually violent tend to be the ones buying guns as a few shootings in U.S. history proves.

The ones who are violent should be kept from buying guns, and from hurting others in general. They should no be left without care and supervision.

[Expectareaction]

Mental illness is so broad you can say little about it that applies to the whole thing. Most people who are mentally ill are not a threat to others. But some are, and those who are need to be treated properly.

And the mentally ill should be given real care, not just given drugs and dumped in the streets.

Problem being, the ones who are actually violent tend to be the ones buying guns as a few shootings in U.S. history proves.

Well, to be fair, we don't know if the non-violent ones by guns.
I myself know a few PTSD guys with guns and permits. None have as of yet, gone ham.

[Patridam]

Yes, sadly mental health is not brought up.
This is a very interesting article. Written before this shooting but no less relevant.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/det ... ion-murder

Indeed.

Kenneth Cole posts controversial billboard on guns and mental health.

http://themighty.com/2015/09/kenneth-co ... l-illness/

"All can access guns", what a crock. Mental health history shows up on NICS background checks. Had the FBI done more thorough investigations into him, or had his wife reported him for his aggressive tendencies, Omar would never have gotten approval to purchase guns legally.

[Jochizyd Republic]

It depends whether you find this social isolation enough to consider them victims. Perhaps some are, to a degree, victims of recruiters and radical instigators. These youngsters could be considered victims in the same way child soldiers are victims. They're not victims in the classical definition of the word, no.

Not just muslim kids are drawn to radical islam. Social isolation and the wrong influence can push any kid towards radicalisation.

I agree they can be considered victims of radical preachers and recruiters, but even then, I wouldn't indulge in too much victimhood, lest it become de-responsiblization.

Certainly. But we should be careful with our victimhood labels. Being told Muslims are victims of the West who is out to get them is a primary talking point of Jihadi recruiters. Let's not allow ourselves to mimic them either.

Muslims are victims of fundamentalist revisionists and Arab Imperialists and if you don't recognize that as the major threat of which all others are branches of you are ignoring the problem.

But no, Muslims that say that the Scriptures are fine and the people need to change are part of the problem because conservatism makes you literally Abd al Wahhab.

[Gauthier]

Indeed.

Kenneth Cole posts controversial billboard on guns and mental health.

http://themighty.com/2015/09/kenneth-co ... l-illness/

"All can access guns", what a crock. Mental health history shows up on NICS background checks. Had the FBI done more thorough investigations into him, or had his wife reported him for his aggressive tendencies, Omar would never have gotten approval to purchase guns legally.

Which stopped Seung, Loughner and Holmes in their tracks.

[Expectareaction]

Indeed.

Kenneth Cole posts controversial billboard on guns and mental health.

http://themighty.com/2015/09/kenneth-co ... l-illness/

"All can access guns", what a crock. Mental health history shows up on NICS background checks. Had the FBI done more thorough investigations into him, or had his wife reported him for his aggressive tendencies, Omar would never have gotten approval to purchase guns legally.

Mental Illness does not show up on NICS unless you've gone through the courts because of it or been committed.
Plenty of people are diagnosed with Mental Illness and don't fit that criteria, most mentally ill people would not show up on NICS.

[Novus America]

Indeed.

Kenneth Cole posts controversial billboard on guns and mental health.

http://themighty.com/2015/09/kenneth-co ... l-illness/

"All can access guns", what a crock. Mental health history shows up on NICS background checks. Had the FBI done more thorough investigations into him, or had his wife reported him for his aggressive tendencies, Omar would never have gotten approval to purchase guns legally.

Well certainly had his wife reported him that is true. But quite often mental health is not properly reported in NICs. But the problem is not just guns. People who are a danger to others can kill with a car, a knife, any tool. They need treatment and proper supervision. Not just kept from getting guns.