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Gauthier
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52887
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Postby Gauthier » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:01 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Novus America wrote:
True. Which raises the immigration issue. We need stricter background checks and psychological tests. The guys father is an extremist and appears quite possibly unstable. Why was his father let in?


Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?


Clearly Mateen's parents need to be deported for his crime. *nod*
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
Where is your God-Emperor now?

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Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:01 pm

Novus America wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?


Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.


How? Do you understand the process through which every immigrant visa has to go through in USCIS?

It's not as easy as applying for it, you know.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:01 pm

Pantuxia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
This will ruffle a few feathers but we need to treat Wahhabism and Salafism somewhat like we treated Communism.

Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!


Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Esternial
Technical Moderator
 
Posts: 54369
Founded: May 09, 2009
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Esternial » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:01 pm

Olerand wrote:
Esternial wrote:Sorry, haven't been paying much attention to this thread. Could you elaborate on that?

An argument that I had earlier in which I argued that Muslims are not victims of, or in, the West, and that that victimizing rhetoric only creates a false and dangerous sense of us vs. them amongst Muslims here and worldwide.

I'm not sure if we can paint all Muslims with the same colour. Especially young muslims can grow up feeling isolated in the West and may be more easily swayed towards a radical ideology.

Though this only applies to events leading up to radicalisation.
Last edited by Esternial on Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:01 pm

Novus America wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?


Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Expectareaction
Envoy
 
Posts: 248
Founded: Jun 11, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Expectareaction » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:03 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Expectareaction wrote:Argumentum ad Logicam


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Since the post I quoted contained ONLY a logical fallacy, what else would you have had me say?
Or
Argumentum ad Logicam, it literally applies to every single citing of logical fallacies on this forum, including my own.

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Esternial
Technical Moderator
 
Posts: 54369
Founded: May 09, 2009
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Esternial » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:04 pm

Novus America wrote:
Pantuxia wrote:Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!


Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

"It worked"

Kind of ignoring the side-effects of such actions. They might have even contributed to Daesh's rise to infamy.

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Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:04 pm

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.


How? Do you understand the process through which every immigrant visa has to go through in USCIS?

It's not as easy as applying for it, you know.


Yes, it is not easy. But not effective either. You have to jump through a ton of red tape that does nothing to stop the wrong people getting in.

One way to start is requiring psychological evaluations, like they do for the military. As well as background checks and a stricter loyalty oath. The guy praises the Taliban. There is no way that guy could pass a military background check and get a security clearance.
Last edited by Novus America on Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Expectareaction
Envoy
 
Posts: 248
Founded: Jun 11, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Expectareaction » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:04 pm

Gauthier wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?


Clearly Mateen's parents need to be deported for his crime. *nod*

They live in Afghanistan, and have for quite some time.

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PaNTuXIa
Senator
 
Posts: 3538
Founded: Feb 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby PaNTuXIa » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:04 pm

Novus America wrote:
Pantuxia wrote:Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!


Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

Well, Radical Islam is much smaller than Communism, we won't need to do as much. Plus, there are now the threats of hackers such as Anonymous and WikiLeaks.
I support Open Borders for Israel.
United Marxist Nations wrote:Anime has ruined my life.

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
PaNTuXIa wrote:>swedish
>conservatism

Islamic nations tend to be right wing.

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:05 pm

Novus America wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:If people hear assault rifle and genuinely think that fully-automatic weapons were used or are widely available to criminals?
That's when the "not an assault rifle" correction needs trotting out.

When you're describing a semi-automatic long arm that everyone will recognise? Assault rifle is a fine shorthand, until the point people think a fully-automatic weapon is referred to.
But they don't so it doesn't matter here.


A lot of people do not understand the difference between automatic and semi automatic. Automatic is also used a short hand for semi automatic. It is still wrong.

And, unless someone genuinely is misled into thinking that an automatic weapon is being referred to it does not matter so get the fuck over it.

I did, after like three years of it.
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PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:06 pm

Grinning Dragon wrote:
Frank Zipper wrote:
I would have thought a police officer would know what they were talking about when it came to weapons.


Just because one is a police officer doesn't automatically make them an expert on firearms in fact a lot of them are quite ignorant on firearms, I still hear officers refer to magazines as clips.

Which matters even less than "assault rifle", you have problems if you can't get over this.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:07 pm

Liriena wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.


I never said to ban all Muslims. But we do not need keep out Salafi and Wahhabi extremists.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13169
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Olerand » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:07 pm

Pantuxia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
This will ruffle a few feathers but we need to treat Wahhabism and Salafism somewhat like we treated Communism.

Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!

Baby steps. If America adopts containment instead of suckling on the Saudi oil teat, then that's already a good thing.

Esternial wrote:
Olerand wrote:An argument that I had earlier in which I argued that Muslims are not victims of, or in, the West, and that that victimizing rhetoric only creates a false and dangerous sense of us vs. them amongst Muslims here and worldwide.

I'm not sure if we can paint all Muslims with the same colour. Especially young muslims can grow up feeling isolated in the West and may be more easily swayed towards a radical ideology.

Though this only applies to events leading up to radicalisation.

No, we should still not call them victims nor consider them as such. Plenty of Westerners grow up in poverty, plenty more grow up in material deprivation, even more feel societally alienated. Victimhood is not the answer. Telling them they are victims is not the answer.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member. Ségolène Royal 2019, I guess Actually I might vote la France Insoumise.

Qui suis-je?:
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Gauthier
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52887
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Gauthier » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:07 pm

Liriena wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.


But Mateen lapsing on Islamic faith until the last second should not be taken into consideration one bit apparently.
Crimes committed by Muslims will be a pan-Islamic plot and proof of Islam's inherent evil. On the other hand crimes committed by non-Muslims will merely be the acts of loners who do not represent their belief system at all.
The probability of one's participation in homosexual acts is directly proportional to one's public disdain and disgust for homosexuals.
If a political figure makes an accusation of wrongdoing without evidence, odds are probable that the accuser or an associate thereof has in fact committed the very same act, possibly to a worse degree.
Where is your God-Emperor now?

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:07 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Novus America wrote:
And now we have thrned this into a generic gun control thread.


It was going to happen either way, it's easier to attack the tool than the reasons.

Because availability of a tool is nothing to do with that tool being used :roll:
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PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:08 pm

Pantuxia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

Well, Radical Islam is much smaller than Communism, we won't need to do as much. Plus, there are now the threats of hackers such as Anonymous and WikiLeaks.


Sure, it should be quicker and easier than defeating Communism then. Communism was a threat, and we treated it like one. Now it no longer is a real threat.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:08 pm

Novus America wrote:
Soldati senza confini wrote:
How? Do you understand the process through which every immigrant visa has to go through in USCIS?

It's not as easy as applying for it, you know.


Yes, it is not easy. But not effective either. You have to jump through a ton of red tape that does nothing to stop the wrong people getting in.

One way to start is requiring psychological evaluations, like they do for the military. As well as background checks and a stricter loyalty oath. The guy praises the Taliban. There is no way that guy could pass a military background check and get a security clearance.


The Oath really doesn't solve much. I mean, the U.S. still respects dual citizenship. It's one of the few countries who are blatantly respectful of it.

I would, however, say that people who come from dangerous grounds (think the current situation in Syria for instance), upon becoming citizens, we should not honor dual citizenship to those countries until they get their shit together.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:09 pm

Patridam wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Yeah, people forget that Daesh and Hezbollah are actively fighting each other.


He's doing in the name of (rather than being directly affiliated with, or getting material support from) radical Islam. But radical Islam itself is hardly one contiguous group. That's not to say that it wasn't propoganda efforts from the Daesh that converted him, they're especially trying to convert first gen muslims in the US.

"Hardly"

Just say "not".
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PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38385
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:10 pm

Esternial wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

"It worked"

Kind of ignoring the side-effects of such actions. They might have even contributed to Daesh's rise to infamy.


Well I said not go to the same extremes. Take the good parts and leave out the less effective ones. But these things are not always pretty.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

User avatar
PaNTuXIa
Senator
 
Posts: 3538
Founded: Feb 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby PaNTuXIa » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:10 pm

Olerand wrote:
Pantuxia wrote:Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!

Baby steps. If America adopts containment instead of suckling on the Saudi oil teat, then that's already a good thing.

Sadly, I feel like the least likely to happen at of all of those is breaking ties with the Saudi oil barons. Don't forget, they fund terrorism.
I support Open Borders for Israel.
United Marxist Nations wrote:Anime has ruined my life.

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
PaNTuXIa wrote:>swedish
>conservatism

Islamic nations tend to be right wing.

User avatar
Olerand
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13169
Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Olerand » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:11 pm

Pantuxia wrote:
Olerand wrote:Baby steps. If America adopts containment instead of suckling on the Saudi oil teat, then that's already a good thing.

Sadly, I feel like the least likely to happen at of all of those is breaking ties with the Saudi oil barons. Don't forget, they fund terrorism.

It won't happen, certainly. But one can analyze.
Last edited by Olerand on Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
French citizen. Still a Socialist Party member. Ségolène Royal 2019, I guess Actually I might vote la France Insoumise.

Qui suis-je?:
Free Rhenish States wrote:You're French, without faith, probably godless, liberal without any traditional values or respect for any faith whatsoever

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:12 pm

Novus America wrote:
Liriena wrote:The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.


I never said to ban all Muslims. But we do not need keep out Salafi and Wahhabi extremists.

And I do not disagree with you there. I just added that for the sake of clarity, not in response to you in particular.

Extremists should not go unchecked... regardless of faith.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Esternial
Technical Moderator
 
Posts: 54369
Founded: May 09, 2009
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Esternial » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:12 pm

Olerand wrote:
Esternial wrote:I'm not sure if we can paint all Muslims with the same colour. Especially young muslims can grow up feeling isolated in the West and may be more easily swayed towards a radical ideology.

Though this only applies to events leading up to radicalisation.

No, we should still not call them victims nor consider them as such. Plenty of Westerners grow up in poverty, plenty more grow up in material deprivation, even more feel societally alienated. Victimhood is not the answer. Telling them they are victims is not the answer.

It depends whether you find this social isolation enough to consider them victims. Perhaps some are, to a degree, victims of recruiters and radical instigators. These youngsters could be considered victims in the same way child soldiers are victims. They're not victims in the classical definition of the word, no.

Not just muslim kids are drawn to radical islam. Social isolation and the wrong influence can push any kid towards radicalisation.

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:13 pm

Jolet wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:He'd been going there for three years. He didn't pop in three years ago.

Your suggestion is not reasonable.
If there is nothing to pull him up on because nothing exists at that time, then no-one bears responsibility for declaring him no risk.

He snapped and within days embarked on his massacre. This is nothing to do with whatever happened in 2013.
Not sure how you can go somewhere for three years and not notice it's a gay bar. There's... usually signs. Not just things you can pick up on, but, signs.

If this is your suggestion, it's a rather bollocks application of Hanlon's razor.


My my, you really went digging here, didn't you? This was pages and pages ago. Well, no point in letting a dead horse lie- lemme go grab my stick...

Some of us work.
Jolet wrote:
He'd been going there for three years. He didn't pop in three years ago.

Your suggestion is not reasonable.


You're right, he'd been going there for three years. Getting to know the place, know the people, pick out who was gay and who was not, getting to know the layout of the structure, lines of fire, the whole nine yards. I'm very, very aware that he was a regular there. It's for that reason that the casing theory makes sense.

If it had been, say, the three months immediately prior maybe. Three weeks? Absolutely.

Three fucking years. That's not casing, that's "I'm going to snap and I'm going to do it in that place I always go".
He'd been taking people home from the place, supposedly.

Casing "theory" makes no sense.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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