Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[Gauthier]

True. Which raises the immigration issue. We need stricter background checks and psychological tests. The guys father is an extremist and appears quite possibly unstable. Why was his father let in?

Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?

Clearly Mateen's parents need to be deported for his crime. *nod*

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?

Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

How? Do you understand the process through which every immigrant visa has to go through in USCIS?

It's not as easy as applying for it, you know.

[Novus America]

This will ruffle a few feathers but we need to treat Wahhabism and Salafism somewhat like we treated Communism.

Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!

Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

[Esternial]

Sorry, haven't been paying much attention to this thread. Could you elaborate on that?

An argument that I had earlier in which I argued that Muslims are not victims of, or in, the West, and that that victimizing rhetoric only creates a false and dangerous sense of us vs. them amongst Muslims here and worldwide.

I'm not sure if we can paint all Muslims with the same colour. Especially young muslims can grow up feeling isolated in the West and may be more easily swayed towards a radical ideology.

Though this only applies to events leading up to radicalisation.

[Liriena]

Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?

Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.

[Expectareaction]

Argumentum ad Logicam

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Since the post I quoted contained ONLY a logical fallacy, what else would you have had me say?
Or
Argumentum ad Logicam, it literally applies to every single citing of logical fallacies on this forum, including my own.

[Esternial]

Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!

Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

"It worked"

Kind of ignoring the side-effects of such actions. They might have even contributed to Daesh's rise to infamy.

[Novus America]

Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

How? Do you understand the process through which every immigrant visa has to go through in USCIS?

It's not as easy as applying for it, you know.

Yes, it is not easy. But not effective either. You have to jump through a ton of red tape that does nothing to stop the wrong people getting in.

One way to start is requiring psychological evaluations, like they do for the military. As well as background checks and a stricter loyalty oath. The guy praises the Taliban. There is no way that guy could pass a military background check and get a security clearance.

[Expectareaction]

Aren't they settled immigrants for quite some time already?

Clearly Mateen's parents need to be deported for his crime. *nod*

They live in Afghanistan, and have for quite some time.

[PaNTuXIa]

Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!

Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

Well, Radical Islam is much smaller than Communism, we won't need to do as much. Plus, there are now the threats of hackers such as Anonymous and WikiLeaks.

[Imperializt Russia]

If people hear assault rifle and genuinely think that fully-automatic weapons were used or are widely available to criminals?
That's when the "not an assault rifle" correction needs trotting out.

When you're describing a semi-automatic long arm that everyone will recognise? Assault rifle is a fine shorthand, until the point people think a fully-automatic weapon is referred to.
But they don't so it doesn't matter here.

A lot of people do not understand the difference between automatic and semi automatic. Automatic is also used a short hand for semi automatic. It is still wrong.

And, unless someone genuinely is misled into thinking that an automatic weapon is being referred to it does not matter so get the fuck over it.

I did, after like three years of it.

[Imperializt Russia]

I would have thought a police officer would know what they were talking about when it came to weapons.

Just because one is a police officer doesn't automatically make them an expert on firearms in fact a lot of them are quite ignorant on firearms, I still hear officers refer to magazines as clips.

Which matters even less than "assault rifle", you have problems if you can't get over this.

[Novus America]

Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.

I never said to ban all Muslims. But we do not need keep out Salafi and Wahhabi extremists.

[Olerand]

This will ruffle a few feathers but we need to treat Wahhabism and Salafism somewhat like we treated Communism.

Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!

Baby steps. If America adopts containment instead of suckling on the Saudi oil teat, then that's already a good thing.

An argument that I had earlier in which I argued that Muslims are not victims of, or in, the West, and that that victimizing rhetoric only creates a false and dangerous sense of us vs. them amongst Muslims here and worldwide.

I'm not sure if we can paint all Muslims with the same colour. Especially young muslims can grow up feeling isolated in the West and may be more easily swayed towards a radical ideology.

Though this only applies to events leading up to radicalisation.

No, we should still not call them victims nor consider them as such. Plenty of Westerners grow up in poverty, plenty more grow up in material deprivation, even more feel societally alienated. Victimhood is not the answer. Telling them they are victims is not the answer.

[Gauthier]

Yes. But the father is still crazy. When we let them in we cleary made a mistake.

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.

But Mateen lapsing on Islamic faith until the last second should not be taken into consideration one bit apparently.

[Imperializt Russia]

And now we have thrned this into a generic gun control thread.

It was going to happen either way, it's easier to attack the tool than the reasons.

Because availability of a tool is nothing to do with that tool being used

[Novus America]

Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

Well, Radical Islam is much smaller than Communism, we won't need to do as much. Plus, there are now the threats of hackers such as Anonymous and WikiLeaks.

Sure, it should be quicker and easier than defeating Communism then. Communism was a threat, and we treated it like one. Now it no longer is a real threat.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

How? Do you understand the process through which every immigrant visa has to go through in USCIS?

It's not as easy as applying for it, you know.

Yes, it is not easy. But not effective either. You have to jump through a ton of red tape that does nothing to stop the wrong people getting in.

One way to start is requiring psychological evaluations, like they do for the military. As well as background checks and a stricter loyalty oath. The guy praises the Taliban. There is no way that guy could pass a military background check and get a security clearance.

The Oath really doesn't solve much. I mean, the U.S. still respects dual citizenship. It's one of the few countries who are blatantly respectful of it.

I would, however, say that people who come from dangerous grounds (think the current situation in Syria for instance), upon becoming citizens, we should not honor dual citizenship to those countries until they get their shit together.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yeah, people forget that Daesh and Hezbollah are actively fighting each other.

He's doing in the name of (rather than being directly affiliated with, or getting material support from) radical Islam. But radical Islam itself is hardly one contiguous group. That's not to say that it wasn't propoganda efforts from the Daesh that converted him, they're especially trying to convert first gen muslims in the US.

"Hardly"

Just say "not".

[Novus America]

Hey, it worked. We won. We do not need to go to all the same extremes, but we do need to adopt some of the tactics. The ones that worked best.

"It worked"

Kind of ignoring the side-effects of such actions. They might have even contributed to Daesh's rise to infamy.

Well I said not go to the same extremes. Take the good parts and leave out the less effective ones. But these things are not always pretty.

[PaNTuXIa]

Ah yes, scare the citizens in order to keep the military-industrial complex running. Don't forget selling weapons to enemies of the US, creating false flag attacks, and helping to aid dictators!

Baby steps. If America adopts containment instead of suckling on the Saudi oil teat, then that's already a good thing.

Sadly, I feel like the least likely to happen at of all of those is breaking ties with the Saudi oil barons. Don't forget, they fund terrorism.

[Olerand]

Baby steps. If America adopts containment instead of suckling on the Saudi oil teat, then that's already a good thing.

Sadly, I feel like the least likely to happen at of all of those is breaking ties with the Saudi oil barons. Don't forget, they fund terrorism.

It won't happen, certainly. But one can analyze.

[Liriena]

The power of hindsight... and that still would not justify outright bigotry against all Muslims. Harsh criticism of the Islamic faith itself? Sure. Harsh criticism of the father, and religious figures who might have influenced father and son alike? Sure.

I never said to ban all Muslims. But we do not need keep out Salafi and Wahhabi extremists.

And I do not disagree with you there. I just added that for the sake of clarity, not in response to you in particular.

Extremists should not go unchecked... regardless of faith.

[Esternial]

I'm not sure if we can paint all Muslims with the same colour. Especially young muslims can grow up feeling isolated in the West and may be more easily swayed towards a radical ideology.

Though this only applies to events leading up to radicalisation.

No, we should still not call them victims nor consider them as such. Plenty of Westerners grow up in poverty, plenty more grow up in material deprivation, even more feel societally alienated. Victimhood is not the answer. Telling them they are victims is not the answer.

It depends whether you find this social isolation enough to consider them victims. Perhaps some are, to a degree, victims of recruiters and radical instigators. These youngsters could be considered victims in the same way child soldiers are victims. They're not victims in the classical definition of the word, no.

Not just muslim kids are drawn to radical islam. Social isolation and the wrong influence can push any kid towards radicalisation.

[Imperializt Russia]

He'd been going there for three years. He didn't pop in three years ago.

Your suggestion is not reasonable.
If there is nothing to pull him up on because nothing exists at that time, then no-one bears responsibility for declaring him no risk.

He snapped and within days embarked on his massacre. This is nothing to do with whatever happened in 2013.
Not sure how you can go somewhere for three years and not notice it's a gay bar. There's... usually signs. Not just things you can pick up on, but, signs.

If this is your suggestion, it's a rather bollocks application of Hanlon's razor.

My my, you really went digging here, didn't you? This was pages and pages ago. Well, no point in letting a dead horse lie- lemme go grab my stick...

Some of us work.

He'd been going there for three years. He didn't pop in three years ago.

Your suggestion is not reasonable.

You're right, he'd been going there for three years. Getting to know the place, know the people, pick out who was gay and who was not, getting to know the layout of the structure, lines of fire, the whole nine yards. I'm very, very aware that he was a regular there. It's for that reason that the casing theory makes sense.

If it had been, say, the three months immediately prior maybe. Three weeks? Absolutely.

Three fucking years. That's not casing, that's "I'm going to snap and I'm going to do it in that place I always go".
He'd been taking people home from the place, supposedly.

Casing "theory" makes no sense.