Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[The Black Forrest]

Yeah. Traditionally and in modern times

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

Christian homophobes also fag bash, burn, and drag behind trucks.

If Christian countries had more of a theocracy in place, we would probably do much of the same.

[The Alma Mater]

"Will not blame the ideology and background of violence and oppression and just assume this is some random act with no wider historical connotations" = "I'm too lazy to look at things that challenge my world view and assume all aberrations to it are just instances of lone wolfs going crazy".

You will never solve the problem like this. How many more terrorist attacks will it take?

I admit the ideology is the problem. But I will not hold people responsible for events they had no part in purely because they are of the same religion as the person who was responsible.

Why not ? If you were a member of the nazi party or the Klan, would you also consider it unfair if people held you partially responsible for crimes explicitly glorified by said organisations ?

[Jochizyd Republic]

Because Christians never publicly execute homosexuals.

Oh wait.

One Christian country (in Africa no less) vs. how many Islamic countries? Stop with the apologetic. Islam has some very disturbing tenets to it, and trying to stop people from shining a spotlight on these so you can talk about isolated examples of Christians doing similar things, strikes as suspicious.

People just died, and you're not willing to actually blame the people responsible.

Because blaming Islam as an entire religion for promoting the killing and abuse of gays is impractical.

Disapproving of Homosexuality on Moral grounds without wanting to kill and abuse them all is technically the majority in Islam.

Nothing regressive or even leftist about that sentiment. It

Now if you want to hold the disapproval of homosexuality as responsible, You'd have a few more religions to account for as well.

[Jochizyd Republic]

I admit the ideology is the problem. But I will not hold people responsible for events they had no part in purely because they are of the same religion as the person who was responsible.

Why not ? If you were a member of the nazi party or the Klan, would you also consider it unfair if people held you partially responsible for crimes explicitly glorified by said organisations ?

Godwins law and fedora porn wrapped into one. Not that I am surprised.

A better analogy is holding all right wingers responsible for far rightists.

[Vassenor]

That depends. Are we using guilt-by-association as an excuse to justify bigotry?

[Patridam]

Pardon? Are you saying Christianity and Islam take the same stances on homosexuality

Yeah. Traditionally....

Muhammed said: "If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did [being homosexual], kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done," with the preferred methods of death being either stoning or being thrown from a minaret.

Jesus said... well... this is the closest he ever said to anything about homosexuality: ‘Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning “made them male and female” [Genesis 1:27], and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh” [Genesis 2:24]? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.’

Both the Quran and the New testament have other passages, but the former surmises to "kill those homosexual abominiations", the latter "they ain't going to heaven." Certainly not the same traditionally.

... and in modern times.

Lets take a look at a modern, developed country then.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/br ... ms-survey/
http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-repo ... ality.aspx
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may ... osexuality

52% of Muslims in Britain - in a developed western country - think homosexuality should be illegal. Effectively 100% find it morally objectionable.
19% of British Catholics think homosexuality should be illegal. Only 35% find it morally objectionable.

[The Alma Mater]

Why not ? If you were a member of the nazi party or the Klan, would you also consider it unfair if people held you partially responsible for crimes explicitly glorified by said organisations ?

Godwins law and fedora porn wrapped into one. Not that I am surprised.

A better analogy is holding all right wingers responsible for far rightists.

As soon as prominent muslims start making clear, scripturally supported statements, that letting gays be gay is a-ok and not an atrocious sin you would be right. Sofar they are not. They condemn the attack, certainly - but they do not deny that his actions have a solid basis in the Qu'rans teachings and the will of Allah.

which means my analogy is better - organisations filled with decent people, but with teachings that promote violence.
Solution: give the clerics that promote more peaceful interpretations of the texts a megaphone. And be certain their interpretations are not farfetched nonsense, but can actually convince people.

[Gauthier]

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

Christian homophobes also fag bash, burn, and drag behind trucks.

If Christian countries had more of a theocracy in place, we would probably do much of the same.

Fallacy of Relative Bodycounts used to gloat about the savagery of an entire religious demographic while downplaying and dismissing the savagery of another.

Gotta love it.

[Gauthier]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

Why obviously that one is a mentally troubled individual who was not ingrained by a Christian upbringing that homosexuality is a sin and even if he was it doesn't mean Christianity is to blame for his actions whatsoever.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Godwins law and fedora porn wrapped into one. Not that I am surprised.

A better analogy is holding all right wingers responsible for far rightists.

As soon as prominent muslims start making clear, scripturally supported statements, that letting gays be gay is a-ok and not an atrocious sin you would be right. Sofar they are not. They condemn the attack, certainly - but they do not deny that his actions have a solid basis in the Qu'rans teachings and the will of Allah.

which means my analogy is better - organisations filled with decent people, but with teachings that promote violence.
Solution: give the clerics that promote more peaceful interpretations of the texts a megaphone. And be certain their interpretations are not farfetched nonsense, but can actually convince people.

Actually they do. They do condemn that he killed them. You admitted it and then went back on it. What the fuck.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Yeah. Traditionally....

Muhammed said: "If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did [being homosexual], kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done," with the preferred methods of death being either stoning or being thrown from a minaret.

Jesus said... well... this is the closest he ever said to anything about homosexuality: ‘Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning “made them male and female” [Genesis 1:27], and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh” [Genesis 2:24]? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.’

Both the Quran and the New testament have other passages, but the former surmises to "kill those homosexual abominiations", the latter "they ain't going to heaven." Certainly not the same traditionally.

... and in modern times.

Lets take a look at a modern, developed country then.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/11/europe/br ... ms-survey/
http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-repo ... ality.aspx
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may ... osexuality

52% of Muslims in Britain - in a developed western country - think homosexuality should be illegal. Effectively 100% find it morally objectionable.
19% of British Catholics think homosexuality should be illegal. Only 35% find it morally objectionable.

Ah. Quoting a non sahih, in fact, da'if saying. Classy.

And so, I was wrong. But that still is britain. Which is crawling with Takfiris.
But no matter.
One day, the moderates eill realize standing around "fighting with words" will not work. And they can, and will rise up against the fundamentalists. And it's gonna be absolutely glorious when we do.

El Sisi and Assad's actions are a weak and short sample of the times to come. And they will come.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Because Christians never publicly execute homosexuals.

Oh wait.

One Christian country (in Africa no less) vs. how many Islamic countries? Stop with the apologetic. Islam has some very disturbing tenets to it, and trying to stop people from shining a spotlight on these so you can talk about isolated examples of Christians doing similar things, strikes as suspicious.

People just died, and you're not willing to actually blame the people responsible.

So the idea is to blame all muslims?

What.

[Oneracon]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

Well according to his ex-boyfriend, Howell was angry and abusive... and has a record with the local police for threatening people with guns.

[Freefall11111]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

Well according to his ex-boyfriend, Howell was angry and abusive... and has a record with the local police for threatening people with guns.

In other words: Mentally ill, to the surprise of absolutely nobody who pays attention to how primitive and insufficient mental healthcare is.

[Gauthier]

Well according to his ex-boyfriend, Howell was angry and abusive... and has a record with the local police for threatening people with guns.

In other words: Mentally ill, to the surprise of absolutely nobody who pays attention to how primitive and insufficient mental healthcare is.

Thus completely absolving Christianity for ingraining a homophobic mindset. *nod*

[Freefall11111]

In other words: Mentally ill, to the surprise of absolutely nobody who pays attention to how primitive and insufficient mental healthcare is.

Thus completely absolving Christianity for ingraining a homophobic mindset. *nod*

I'd expand on how the two are linked, but I suspect that would count as flaming on this forum.

[Novus America]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

Yes, sadly mental health is not brought up.
This is a very interesting article. Written before this shooting but no less relevant.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/det ... ion-murder

[Olerand]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

I'm pretty sure we've mentioned both. But the thing is, how many people have mental issues? How many grow up in bad homes? How many of them then turn out to be mass murderers?

Also, I have read that his current wife drove him to the club to "scout", so it seems that he indeed was scouting up the enemy. For 3 years...(?)

In addition, the nutjob in California is probably either an Aryan supremacist or a Christian terrorist.

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

Christian homophobes also fag bash, burn, and drag behind trucks.

If Christian countries had more of a theocracy in place, we would probably do much of the same.

But we don't. And a majority of our inhabitants don't want one.

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

Well according to his ex-boyfriend, Howell was angry and abusive... and has a record with the local police for threatening people with guns.

Well damn!

[PaNTuXIa]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

I'm pretty sure we've mentioned both. But the thing is, how many people have mental issues? How many grow up in bad homes? How many of them then turn out to be mass murderers?

Also, I have read that his current wife drove him to the club to "scout", so it seems that he indeed was scouting up the enemy. For 3 years...(?)

In addition, the nutjob in California is probably either an Aryan supremacist or a Christian terrorist.

Christian homophobes also fag bash, burn, and drag behind trucks.

If Christian countries had more of a theocracy in place, we would probably do much of the same.

But we don't. And a majority of our inhabitants don't want one.

Exactly. While the radical Christian may act stupid and make empty threats, and occasionally make homophobic remarks, the radical Muslim will blow up a building, or, as we saw here, kill gays in the name of their imaginary god.

[Expectareaction]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.

Why obviously that one is a mentally troubled individual who was not ingrained by a Christian upbringing that homosexuality is a sin and even if he was it doesn't mean Christianity is to blame for his actions whatsoever.

Since Christianity does not prescribe execution of homosexuals by its adherents, and in fact directly advises against such behavior, no Christianity isn't to blame for his behavior.

[Gauthier]

I'm pretty sure we've mentioned both. But the thing is, how many people have mental issues? How many grow up in bad homes? How many of them then turn out to be mass murderers?

Also, I have read that his current wife drove him to the club to "scout", so it seems that he indeed was scouting up the enemy. For 3 years...(?)

In addition, the nutjob in California is probably either an Aryan supremacist or a Christian terrorist.


But we don't. And a majority of our inhabitants don't want one.

Exactly. While the radical Christian may act stupid and make empty threats, the radical Muslim will blow up a building.

Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim now?

[Olerand]

I'm pretty sure we've mentioned both. But the thing is, how many people have mental issues? How many grow up in bad homes? How many of them then turn out to be mass murderers?

Also, I have read that his current wife drove him to the club to "scout", so it seems that he indeed was scouting up the enemy. For 3 years...(?)

In addition, the nutjob in California is probably either an Aryan supremacist or a Christian terrorist.


But we don't. And a majority of our inhabitants don't want one.

Exactly. While the radical Christian may act stupid and make empty threats, the radical Muslim will blow up a building.

... My words should not be a taken as an absolution of Christian crimes. Particularly Evangelicals. I will have nothing to do with that mess.

[PaNTuXIa]

Exactly. While the radical Christian may act stupid and make empty threats, the radical Muslim will blow up a building.

Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim now?

No, certainly not. But the amount of modern Islamic terrorists dwarfs the number of modern Christian terrorists. While I would argue that the total death toll of the War on Terror is much greater than the total amount killed in 1980s- terrorist attacks, the majority of Muslims feel entitled to kill the godless heathens. While GW Bush and BH Obama may have killed in the name of US "security" ISIS kills in the name of its fictional god. The underlying reason greatly differs between the two.

[Olerand]

Exactly. While the radical Christian may act stupid and make empty threats, the radical Muslim will blow up a building.

Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim now?

Did he kill anyone for Christ?

[Expectareaction]

Exactly. While the radical Christian may act stupid and make empty threats, the radical Muslim will blow up a building.

Timothy McVeigh was a Muslim now?

He named himself as a Christian Warrior and claimed the lives he took were for his God now? Well the story sure has changed since his racist turner diaries inspiration days...could you source this?