Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[United Marxist Nations]

Which is really convenient when you're looking for something, anything to legitimise the mass murder of 49 innocent people... and you're so desperate that you claim solidarity with two opposed groups.

Tbh the fact that the FBI are investigating that the perpetrator apparently actively used more than one gay hook-up/dating app and may have been a frequent patron of Pulse before the shooting seems to paint a very different picture than this one dimensional "ebul ISIS terrorist" narrative that many are trying to impose on this.

Can he not be both? There's plenty of repressed homosexuals in Islamist terrorist groups. The stories of the activities of some Taliban and IS emirs and whatever are... homoerotic to say the least. To some, openly homosexual.

I don't think that we should say that about the shooter just yet. For all we know, he was scoping the place out and finding out about local LGBT community hangout places so that he would know where his targets were.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Why do you seem to think that Islamic fundamentalists can't support terrorist groups, even ambiguously and without much care for which ones they are?

I mean, I am sure there are Irish Republicans who supported both the PIRA and the OIRA.

This guy is more like a Republican who supports the IRA and the UDF at the same time.

Or he just agrees with some of the goals of various terrorist orgabizations.

[Olerand]

I have. And what concept? The "WASP", or Anglo-Saxon as we define it? I have found American understanding of what would be termed the "Anglosphere" to be less than what we call "Anglo-Saxon".

Non-ethnic demographics. Based on "common culture and common worldview."

Perhaps. Does Anglosphere denote a system of organizing the State, the economy, society, etc?

Which at the end of the day doesn't matter. It's that Islam, in most cases, is preached and practiced along homophobic lines. This needs to be addressed since it's one of the root causes for his hatred.

I don't think that saying homosexuality and transgenderism is immoral or unnatural is homophobic.

Saying Homosexuals should be hurt is. And in America, that kind of rhetoric isn't very commonamong Muslims.. Not like it is in like...Pakistan or all of the Mid east/Arab world.

No, I think that's pretty homophobic.

[Patridam]

Which at the end of the day doesn't matter. It's that Islam, in most cases, is preached and practiced along homophobic lines. This needs to be addressed since it's one of the root causes for his hatred.

I don't think that saying homosexuality and transgenderism is immoral or unnatural is homophobic.

Saying Homosexuals should be hurt is. And in America, that kind of rhetoric isn't very commonamong Muslims.. Not like it is in like...Pakistan or all of the Mid east/Arab world.

No, I think that's pretty homophobic.[/quote]

If Christians get flack and accusations of homophobia just for disliking gay marriage, let alone homosexuality itself... then Islam is DEFINITELY homophobic.

[Jochizyd Republic]

I don't think that saying homosexuality and transgenderism is immoral or unnatural is homophobic.

Saying Homosexuals should be hurt is. And in America, that kind of rhetoric isn't very commonamong Muslims.. Not like it is in like...Pakistan or all of the Mid east/Arab world.

No, I think that's pretty homophobic.

If Christians get flack and accusations of homophobia just for disliking gay marriage, let alone homosexuality itself... then Islam is DEFINITELY homophobic.[/quote]
In America and other places, it's generally the same stance.

[Olerand]

If Christians get flack and accusations of homophobia just for disliking gay marriage, let alone homosexuality itself... then Islam is DEFINITELY homophobic.

I don't really care about Christians or their opinions, especially American ones EDIT: This sounds harsh. I don't care if they feel unjustly blamed or whatever for their opposition to something that will in no way/shape/form affect their lives. But to say that "homosexuality and transgederism (ha) is immoral or unnatural" is, without a doubt, homophobic.

[Patridam]

In America and other places, it's generally the same stance.

Pardon? Are you saying Christianity and Islam take the same stances on homosexuality, or something else?

[Jochizyd Republic]

In America and other places, it's generally the same stance.

Pardon? Are you saying Christianity and Islam take the same stances on homosexuality

Yeah. Traditionally and in modern times

[Olerand]

Pardon? Are you saying Christianity and Islam take the same stances on homosexuality

Yeah. Traditionally and in modern times

Traditionally, certainly. In modern times, most of the major branches (again American Evangelicalism excluded) have moved to "love the sinner, hate the sin". So no death, no prison, no recognition.

[Yorkers]

Pardon? Are you saying Christianity and Islam take the same stances on homosexuality

Yeah. Traditionally and in modern times

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

[Vassenor]

Yeah. Traditionally and in modern times

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

Because Christians never publicly execute homosexuals.

Oh wait.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

If Christians get flack and accusations of homophobia just for disliking gay marriage, let alone homosexuality itself... then Islam is DEFINITELY homophobic.

I don't really care about Christians or their opinions, especially American ones EDIT: This sounds harsh. I don't care if they feel unjustly blamed or whatever for their opposition to something that will in no way/shape/form affect their lives. But to say that "homosexuality and transgederism (ha) is immoral or unnatural" is, without a doubt, homophobic.

Not all of us feel that way, so please, don't lump us in with the bigots and haters. There are plenty of us who disagree with our various official church statements or standings, and have vocally and otherwise stood up and told them so. There are a number of support groups with Christians actively working to help people in the LGBT community to work through hurt and harm that's been caused by those statements, or the actions of some churches or officials in them. Not everyone who has a religious bent is an awful human being. Its unfortunate that the loud minority - and yes, I do believe it is a minority, or at least bloody well hope so - paints the rest of us with such a horrid reputation.

I'm just horrified that this happened, that hate was behind it, that a group of people who already have had to deal with the sort of shit they have now have to deal with such a goram awful invasion of a place where they gathered to have fun, and get away from all the bullshit. This is what hate brings us, folks. I don't care what one's beliefs are, if they direct one to hate, to harm, to kill someone else because you don't agree with who they are? Those beliefs are wrong. If an expression of love causes a person to hate? That person is the one with the problem. My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by this unnecessary tragedy.

[Colbert Super PAC]

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

Because Christians never publicly execute homosexuals.

Oh wait.

That's Africa, that doesn't count.

[Vassenor]

Because Christians never publicly execute homosexuals.

Oh wait.

That's Africa, that doesn't count.

Why not?

[Yorkers]

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

Because Christians never publicly execute homosexuals.

Oh wait.

One Christian country (in Africa no less) vs. how many Islamic countries? Stop with the apologetic. Islam has some very disturbing tenets to it, and trying to stop people from shining a spotlight on these so you can talk about isolated examples of Christians doing similar things, strikes as suspicious.

People just died, and you're not willing to actually blame the people responsible.

[Olerand]

I don't really care about Christians or their opinions, especially American ones EDIT: This sounds harsh. I don't care if they feel unjustly blamed or whatever for their opposition to something that will in no way/shape/form affect their lives. But to say that "homosexuality and transgederism (ha) is immoral or unnatural" is, without a doubt, homophobic.

Not all of us feel that way, so please, don't lump us in with the bigots and haters. There are plenty of us who disagree with our various official church statements or standings, and have vocally and otherwise stood up and told them so. There are a number of support groups with Christians actively working to help people in the LGBT community to work through hurt and harm that's been caused by those statements, or the actions of some churches or officials in them. Not everyone who has a religious bent is an awful human being. Its unfortunate that the loud minority - and yes, I do believe it is a minority, or at least bloody well hope so - paints the rest of us with such a horrid reputation.

I'm just horrified that this happened, that hate was behind it, that a group of people who already have had to deal with the sort of shit they have now have to deal with such a goram awful invasion of a place where they gathered to have fun, and get away from all the bullshit. This is what hate brings us, folks. I don't care what one's beliefs are, if they direct one to hate, to harm, to kill someone else because you don't agree with who they are? Those beliefs are wrong. If an expression of love causes a person to hate? That person is the one with the problem. My heart goes out to everyone who has been affected by this unnecessary tragedy.

I am aware that not all Christians are like that. I believe a majority of non-Evangelical Christians in America are accepting of homosexuality and everything. I also know of the liberal bent of many Christian Protestant denominations (the United Protestant Church of France is open for same-sex marriages). I should not have generalized. I meant Christians who... Well victimize themselves as Christians in the West, as if they are the victims when a homosexual is mentioned, or when the gay couple down the street gets married.

[Vassenor]

Because Christians never publicly execute homosexuals.

Oh wait.

One Christian country (in Africa no less) vs. how many Islamic countries? Stop with the apologetic. Islam has some very disturbing tenets to it, and trying to stop people from shining a spotlight on these so you can talk about isolated examples of Christians doing similar things, strikes as suspicious.

People just died, and you're not willing to actually blame the people responsible.

"Will not blame a billion people for the actions of one person" = "not willing to actually blame the people responsible"?

[Yorkers]

That's Africa, that doesn't count.

Why not?

Because it has more to do with cultural issues amongst Africans, not explicit Christianity. The bill doesn't even mention Christianity, unlike the several Islamic laws in the Middle East.

Muslims are committing atrocities specifically for their religion here.

[Olerand]

One Christian country (in Africa no less) vs. how many Islamic countries? Stop with the apologetic. Islam has some very disturbing tenets to it, and trying to stop people from shining a spotlight on these so you can talk about isolated examples of Christians doing similar things, strikes as suspicious.

People just died, and you're not willing to actually blame the people responsible.

"Will not blame a billion people for the actions of one person" = "not willing to actually blame the people responsible"?

Well... The polls. And if you look, proportionately, at the amount of Christian majority countries with anti-homosexual laws, and Muslim ones, the comparison doesn't really stand. Let alone same-sex marriage.

[Yorkers]

One Christian country (in Africa no less) vs. how many Islamic countries? Stop with the apologetic. Islam has some very disturbing tenets to it, and trying to stop people from shining a spotlight on these so you can talk about isolated examples of Christians doing similar things, strikes as suspicious.

People just died, and you're not willing to actually blame the people responsible.

"Will not blame a billion people for the actions of one person" = "not willing to actually blame the people responsible"?

"Will not blame the ideology and background of violence and oppression and just assume this is some random act with no wider historical connotations" = "I'm too lazy to look at things that challenge my world view and assume all aberrations to it are just instances of lone wolfs going crazy".

You will never solve the problem like this. How many more terrorist attacks will it take?

[Olerand]

Why not?

Because it has more to do with cultural issues amongst Africans, not explicit Christianity. The bill doesn't even mention Christianity, unlike the several Islamic laws in the Middle East.

Muslims are committing atrocities specifically for their religion here.

No it's very much because of Christianity.

[Vassenor]

"Will not blame a billion people for the actions of one person" = "not willing to actually blame the people responsible"?

"Will not blame the ideology and background of violence and oppression and just assume this is some random act with no wider historical connotations" = "I'm too lazy to look at things that challenge my world view and assume all aberrations to it are just instances of lone wolfs going crazy".

You will never solve the problem like this. How many more terrorist attacks will it take?

I admit the ideology is the problem. But I will not hold people responsible for events they had no part in purely because they are of the same religion as the person who was responsible.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

I am aware that not all Christians are like that. I believe a majority of non-Evangelical Christians in America are accepting of homosexuality and everything. I also know of the liberal bent of many Christian Protestant denominations (the United Protestant Church of France is open for same-sex marriages). I should not have generalized. I meant Christians who... Well victimize themselves as Christians in the West, as if they are the victims when a homosexual is mentioned, or when the gay couple down the street gets married.

Might be nice to better define that then, just as a suggestion. Since we know that sort of thing is outright bullshit, it ought to be simple enough to dismiss it as such without blaming everyone in the process.

Besides - this is about the victims. The real victims here. Granted, I know there were some who were not LGBT, but that doesn't make this about them specifically. We can all see - or ought to be able to see - the cause behind the shooting. It was hate, bigotry, a refusal to accept that others have the same rights to live and believe and simply be as anyone else. It wasn't Christianity behind it. It may have been Islamic background and teachings that lead the shooter to embrace the bullshit Daesh is pushing in the name of Islam, but it certainly doesn't seem to be what his parents or mosque was teaching. And yes, I do happen to believe there are decent Islamic believers out there. I've known them personally. I've had rather deep philosophical and religious discussions with them. I can see at a glance the difference between them, and the radical animals that are slaughtering their way through the Middle East currently.

That doesn't mean that there aren't some disturbing trends and beliefs that even decent people can give a nod to - this is where both Islam and Christianity go sideways, and we end up with first the looking askance at those we think are going against our beliefs, then start grumbling when we feel we are somehow being disenfranchised on account, or that they are getting preferential treatment, then go further with the audible protesting, which tends to lend itself to that whole mob dynamic, where emotions run high, and common sense operates at an all-time low, and Bad Shit Happens. And from there, the ones who get caught up in the adrenaline of the moment, the ones who are already dealing with things in their life that make it easier to point at and blame someone else for the 'downfall of society' or whatever else they want to complain about, they get all wrapped up in the hate. They look for others who are feeling the same to get some validation, to find their 'pack' so to speak, so they are further validated and don't feel so alone. And there's your radicalization - whatever the core belief.

We need to stand up together and renounce the hate, to track down the most radical cells of it - whether it's online, or wherever, and squash it. We need to fellowship the folks teetering on the edge and help lead them to a better point, instead of that long spiral down. And we need to improve the lives and livelihood of our citizens, to help stop some of the disgruntled bullshit before it even has a chance to get started. It's all related, and it doesn't have to be based in religion - but it can sure as hell be exacerbated by it when given the wrong sort of push.

Bottom line? Hate only brings more hate. It doesn't solve anything. More misery, more fear, less freedom, less safety, and in the end it makes zero goram sense. Seeing plenty of it here, folks. In case any of you thought you were immune, or above it. That's how the 'bad guys' win - dividing us, leading us to categorize one another, compartmentalize, dehumanize. Because a whole lot of little groups too busy yelling and scratching at one another are never going to stand together and accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

And there you go, the Nathi rant of the day. I swear, I was born 30 years too late. Shoulda been a goram hippie. Peace out, folks.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Yeah. Traditionally and in modern times

Christian homophobes picket funerals.
Muslim homophobes hang them from skyscrapers.

But let's go on pretending they're the same.

No. I'm not talking about the fundamentalists. Islam today has waaaay more fundamentalists than Christianity that are a much bigger threat at this time. And must be stopped.

I'm talking about normal average conservatives in both religions. Their positions are the same.

If course, I'm talking about it considering the entire ummah. The average conservatives of Pakistan and the Arab world and Iran are Fundamentalists in the long run if you line them up with all other Muslims.

[The Black Forrest]

Don't forget we still have the guy that was picked up in Los Angeles.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/califo ... -aresenal/

We don't know his story yet. Could be simple crazy, could be Gawd told him to do it, could be his upbringing.

Point is people like to look for the sure simple answer rather then what led that person to that point.

Mental disease and or bad upbringing don't seem to be mentioned much is these events.