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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:56 pm

Gauthier wrote:From 2004 to 2014, over 2,000 terror suspects legally purchased guns in the United States

"Membership in a terrorist organization does not prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives under current federal law," the Government Accountability Office concluded in 2010. The law prohibits felons, fugitives, drug addicts and domestic abusers from purchasing a firearm in the United States. But people on the FBI's consolidated terrorist watchlist — typically placed there when there is "reasonable suspicion" that they are a known or suspected terrorist — can freely purchase handguns or assault-style rifles.

And, as the GAO found, a number of them do: Between 2004 and 2014, suspected terrorists attempted to purchase guns from American dealers at least 2,233 times. And in 2,043 of those cases — 91 percent of the time — they succeeded. There are about 700,000 people on the watch-list — a point that civil libertarians have made to underscore that many on the list may be family members or acquaintances of people with potential terrorist connections.


Lawmakers have tried to stop this from happening. Bills have been introduced in Congress to do just that, going as far back as 2007 at the behest of then-Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.) introduced a bill to do that earlier this year. The "Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2015" would prevent several hundred gun purchases by suspected terrorists each year, and it includes provisions to let people challenge a denial if they believe they were placed on the watchlist in error.

But these bills have rarely made it out of committee, in part due to vehement opposition from the National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress. The NRA objected to earlier versions of the bill, saying they were "aimed primarily at law-abiding American gun owners," that "prohibiting the possession of firearms doesn’t stop criminals from illegally acquiring them," and that the bills were "sponsored by gun control extremists."


So back in 2015, Senator Dianne Feinstein and Representative Peter King- he of the Muslim Inquisition- proposed a bill that would have prevented terror suspects like Omar Mateen from being able to legally purchase guns and included an appeals system for people who thought they were being wrongly barred. However the bill did not pass, which is not hard to figure due to the harsh lobbying efforts of the National Rifle Association which argues that a bill like that would only target lawful gun owners as part of a massive gun control agenda. So does this mean according to the NRA, that Omar Mateen is in fact a Second Amendment rights triumph?


Why should that bill not pass.

1. It is likely unconstitutional, Reasonable suspicion is a laughably low standard and only used when a police officer wants to briefly detain you (like a traffic stop and typically for less than 15 minutes).

2. The purpose of the terror watch list is to have a secret list of people who you are investigating, if you can go and figure out if you are being secretly investigated by trying to buy a firearm that is not going to be a very secret list. In fact whomever leaked the shooter was on the list almost certainly broke the law to do so and may have endangered ongoing investigations into people affiliated with the shooter.

3. It would give people the means to challenge the constitutionality of the list or subsets of the list (those Fisa courts and secret warrants for instance), which is only a bad thing if you think this things should exist.
Last edited by Greed and Death on Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:09 am

Sharania wrote:On various news sites there surfaced the list of people identified so far as the victims of the 6/12 shooter. Am I the only one to notice an elephant in the room? Most of them were either Latin or Afro American. So it's important to recognize this not only as a homophobic attack and a terrorist act - but also as a hate crime, an act of a racist.

Also, I have a friend who is NRA member. He explained something to me. You see, before buying any gun you must fill ATF form 4473. Look at points e, f, h and i. According to them this Omar could not legally buy his guns because:

- He had substance abuse problem (steroids).
- He had a history of domestic violence.
- He was bi-polar.

How did this happened?!

But wait - that's not all! It turns out that this Omar has been employed as a security guard at a courthouse, an armed security officer for the UK company G$S and as a state prison guard. Each of these jobs would have required a security investigation and, obviously, not a single one of them found out that he was clearly a sociopath and a ticking timebomb.

I ask again - how did this happened? Who were the people (either state of the federal employees) responsible for that?

This is the first I've heard of a "substance abuse problem", his domestic violence was never reported, and I've never heard it suggested he was bipolar, unless we're seeing that he was clearly upset after his wife, y'know, up and left and eventually snapped and shot a hundred people and out-of-hand saying "huh, must have been bipolar".
Expectareaction wrote:
Socialist Nordia wrote:Swiss military rifles are given because pretty much everyone has to join a militia in case self defence is needed. They have no standing army. Also, ammo is highly restricted to ensure nothing bad happens with the guns. Our culture is a problem. Our culture clings to these inanimate objects so fiercely. People are unwilling to make any compromise for safety. I understand if my proposals go too far, but I would gladly compromise for just a few added regulations. This isn't an all or nothing issue.

The fact remains, the Swiss have guns as readily available as the US, and ammunition is not that hard to get at all over there.
Especially if you were inclined to be a criminal.
Youre blaming for the object for the thought process and not the thought process.
If I want to kill 100 people in an evening, I absolutely don't need a gun.

I'm pretty sure Swiss militia are no longer issued their rifles. Partly in response to issues such as, for example, the Zug parliament massacre.
Patridam wrote:
The balkens wrote:
That woman wouldnt know a "assault weapon" if she was holding one with her finger on the trigger, displaying a lack of regard for others nearby.....


They also described what the Colorado shooter wore as "assault clothing".

A military plate carrier, a combat helmet, gas mask and tactical webbing?
Gee I wonder why.
Paddy O Fernature wrote:
Socialist Nordia wrote:If it's so damn easy as you claim, why isn't it being done? Nothing similar happened since the 90s. Guns are clearly the preferred option for terrorists.


You want the honest truth?

WE... HAVE....BEEN... LUCKY.

It's only a matter of time.

What bizarre doublethink.

America has a mass shooting every week. There's a reason it doesn't have a mass bombing every week.
Occupied Deutschland wrote:
Socialist Nordia wrote:Other than the guns, what do others here think would stop things like this. I would oppose any Muslim ban like trump wants. What would fight the radicalisation process though?

Imprison all the Muslims on the no-fly list (and keep 24/7 surveillance on and curtail all constitutional rights of anyone else on the list), ban internet sites about ISIS, jihad or fundamentalist Islam, and pass the 'USA PATRIOT II: Patriot Harder' act.

Weren't you crying about due process and constitutional rights a few pages ago?
Last edited by Imperializt Russia on Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Osfjoll
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Postby Osfjoll » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:39 am

A part of me died inside.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:40 am

Novus America wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:The only purpose of gun control in this matter would be to make sure certain mental diseases are denied access. But I suspect the gun fanatics and the NRA would fight that.

I would rather see a discussion about mental disease and treating these people who can't get the proper help.


I posted sources about an discussed mental health several times. But it got lost in the gun control debate. Mental hospitals should have been reformed, not eliminated.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/det ... ion-murder


The more time goes on the more I find myself agreeing with that.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:57 am

Apparently conspiracies are already circling, over the amount of ammunition allegedly expended, claiming that he fired a thousand rounds, shot most victims multiple times and shot some "as many as 12 times" and that this should not be possible. And pointing out, or claiming, there was a three hour gap followed by a one hour firefight.

So far as I can work out, you can only get to "a thousand rounds" by assuming that almost all victims were shot 12 times.
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Veceria
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Postby Veceria » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:02 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Apparently conspiracies are already circling, over the amount of ammunition allegedly expended, claiming that he fired a thousand rounds, shot most victims multiple times and shot some "as many as 12 times" and that this should not be possible. And pointing out, or claiming, there was a three hour gap followed by a one hour firefight.

So far as I can work out, you can only get to "a thousand rounds" by assuming that almost all victims were shot 12 times.

They were counting holes in walls and ceiling as well.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:04 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Apparently conspiracies are already circling, over the amount of ammunition allegedly expended, claiming that he fired a thousand rounds, shot most victims multiple times and shot some "as many as 12 times" and that this should not be possible. And pointing out, or claiming, there was a three hour gap followed by a one hour firefight.

So far as I can work out, you can only get to "a thousand rounds" by assuming that almost all victims were shot 12 times.


From what I heard they were counting missed shots as well, and if you totaled it all up it came out to a copious amount of ammunition. Like 50 PMAG's worth or some nonsense.
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Dakini
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Postby Dakini » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:35 am

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Gun Manufacturers wrote:
If an attacker planned it out, possibly. I'm merely pointing out that Socialist Nordia's claim that it would have been less casualties without firearms isn't necessarily true, it could be more depending on the method. I'm not claiming that in the absence of firearms, that bombings will increase.


Then it's irrelevant. It's like saying that he could have crashed a plane into the building and killed just as many people. Fact is, even though bombings (and hijacked plane crashings) do happen, they're not common methods of dealing out death on a massive scale in this country, and there's no indication that bombings would become a preferred alternative for people who would otherwise be mass shooters.

Seriously, making bombs and learning how to fly planes are things that take skill and patience to learn. From what's coming out about this dude he probably wouldn't have bothered if those were his only options.

I mean, maybe he'd have tried a knife and got one or two people before being subdued.

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Christiaanistan
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Postby Christiaanistan » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:53 am

Look, the Islamic State in Iraq and Levant is in a death spiral, right now. This shooting might have just been a symptom of their decline:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... lamic-sta/

This person was probably frustrated that the "Islamic State Caliphate" didn't march heroically over the world painted in holy Islamic glory, he had Gay Day in Orlando going on around him, and he was in a state of despair, he saw people celebrating something that he saw as a symbol of "western decadence." He might have been suicidal anyway due to internal conflict if that has any bearing.

It actually sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.
I just might move to Calabash and start pretending that the rest of the world sank to the bottom of the ocean.

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Veceria
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Postby Veceria » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:12 am

Christiaanistan wrote:Look, the Islamic State in Iraq and Levant is in a death spiral, right now. This shooting might have just been a symptom of their decline:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... lamic-sta/

This person was probably frustrated that the "Islamic State Caliphate" didn't march heroically over the world painted in holy Islamic glory, he had Gay Day in Orlando going on around him, and he was in a state of despair, he saw people celebrating something that he saw as a symbol of "western decadence." He might have been suicidal anyway due to internal conflict if that has any bearing.

It actually sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.

All the recent edgy news from the daesh are because they're losing ground. They want to show that they're "still strong".
But idk if that shooting was really orchestrated by them.
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Then suddenly fights broke out because hey, it's the internet.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:17 am

Veceria wrote:
Christiaanistan wrote:Look, the Islamic State in Iraq and Levant is in a death spiral, right now. This shooting might have just been a symptom of their decline:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... lamic-sta/

This person was probably frustrated that the "Islamic State Caliphate" didn't march heroically over the world painted in holy Islamic glory, he had Gay Day in Orlando going on around him, and he was in a state of despair, he saw people celebrating something that he saw as a symbol of "western decadence." He might have been suicidal anyway due to internal conflict if that has any bearing.

It actually sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.

All the recent edgy news from the daesh are because they're losing ground. They want to show that they're "still strong".
But idk if that shooting was really orchestrated by them.


Probably not orchestrated, but he obviously had some sympathy towards them.
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Christiaanistan
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Postby Christiaanistan » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:17 am

Veceria wrote:
Christiaanistan wrote:Look, the Islamic State in Iraq and Levant is in a death spiral, right now. This shooting might have just been a symptom of their decline:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... lamic-sta/

This person was probably frustrated that the "Islamic State Caliphate" didn't march heroically over the world painted in holy Islamic glory, he had Gay Day in Orlando going on around him, and he was in a state of despair, he saw people celebrating something that he saw as a symbol of "western decadence." He might have been suicidal anyway due to internal conflict if that has any bearing.

It actually sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.

All the recent edgy news from the daesh are because they're losing ground. They want to show that they're "still strong".
But idk if that shooting was really orchestrated by them.
Probably not. However, the fact that they weren't directly orchestrating it might have actually made this guy more dangerous. This guy might have had his heart set on a certain outcome. He wasn't seeing that coming to pass.
I just might move to Calabash and start pretending that the rest of the world sank to the bottom of the ocean.

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West Aurelia
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Postby West Aurelia » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:19 am

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:23 am



Only to vote it down with any luck, the nonsense about gun show sales and online sales is a myth and we don't need to do more with terror watchlists. Not in their current state.
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Jamzmania
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Postby Jamzmania » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:48 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:


Only to vote it down with any luck, the nonsense about gun show sales and online sales is a myth and we don't need to do more with terror watchlists. Not in their current state.

There would need to be a much higher standard for terror suspects to be blocked from buying firearms, yet even then sales should only be blocked for a short amount of time.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:51 am

Jamzmania wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Only to vote it down with any luck, the nonsense about gun show sales and online sales is a myth and we don't need to do more with terror watchlists. Not in their current state.

There would need to be a much higher standard for terror suspects to be blocked from buying firearms, yet even then sales should only be blocked for a short amount of time.


Interestingly enough back in December I think the Republicans came up with an idea to revamp the terror watchlist, it would essentially require a judges approval and whatnot. Strangely the Dems weren't on board with the idea.
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Big Jim P
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Postby Big Jim P » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:53 am

Jamzmania wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Only to vote it down with any luck, the nonsense about gun show sales and online sales is a myth and we don't need to do more with terror watchlists. Not in their current state.

There would need to be a much higher standard for terror suspects to be blocked from buying firearms, yet even then sales should only be blocked for a short amount of time.


People keep forgetting that the operative word is "suspects". Not "convicted terrorists". If they are too dangerous to be allowed guns, then they should not be on the streets at all.
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Jamzmania
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Postby Jamzmania » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:58 am

Big Jim P wrote:
Jamzmania wrote:There would need to be a much higher standard for terror suspects to be blocked from buying firearms, yet even then sales should only be blocked for a short amount of time.


People keep forgetting that the operative word is "suspects". Not "convicted terrorists". If they are too dangerous to be allowed guns, then they should not be on the streets at all.

I think it should only be blocked temporarily at the request of the FBI or other relevant agency. This would be in cases of ongoing investigations.

And when I say temporarily I mean like a couple days.
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Big Jim P
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Postby Big Jim P » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:01 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Jamzmania wrote:There would need to be a much higher standard for terror suspects to be blocked from buying firearms, yet even then sales should only be blocked for a short amount of time.


Interestingly enough back in December I think the Republicans came up with an idea to revamp the terror watchlist, it would essentially require a judges approval and whatnot. Strangely the Dems weren't on board with the idea.


As long as due process is maintained (including a mechanism to challenge being listed), then there is no problem with the watch/no-fly lists.
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Jamzmania
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Postby Jamzmania » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:02 am

Big Jim P wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Interestingly enough back in December I think the Republicans came up with an idea to revamp the terror watchlist, it would essentially require a judges approval and whatnot. Strangely the Dems weren't on board with the idea.


As long as due process is maintained (including a mechanism to challenge being listed), then there is no problem with the watch/no-fly lists.

It needs to be a speedy and efficient mechanism, as well. It shouldn't take months to get removed from the list.
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Big Jim P
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Postby Big Jim P » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:24 am

Jamzmania wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:
As long as due process is maintained (including a mechanism to challenge being listed), then there is no problem with the watch/no-fly lists.

It needs to be a speedy and efficient mechanism, as well. It shouldn't take months to get removed from the list.


Very true.
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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:42 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Apparently conspiracies are already circling, over the amount of ammunition allegedly expended, claiming that he fired a thousand rounds, shot most victims multiple times and shot some "as many as 12 times" and that this should not be possible. And pointing out, or claiming, there was a three hour gap followed by a one hour firefight.

So far as I can work out, you can only get to "a thousand rounds" by assuming that almost all victims were shot 12 times.

Has anyone seen anything further about the early witness accounts that there were at least two others in there shooting as well? I saw that in multiple places, but have never seen a confirmation of that suspicion. Granted, in such a crazy environment with bullets flying, I can believe that people might see things in the wrong light, so tend to take some of those accounts with a grain of salt, but ... with some of this here above, and paired with those claims of more than one shooter, is it possible or even probable? No idea on this end, hence asking if anyone else has heard anything further on it.

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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:47 am

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Apparently conspiracies are already circling, over the amount of ammunition allegedly expended, claiming that he fired a thousand rounds, shot most victims multiple times and shot some "as many as 12 times" and that this should not be possible. And pointing out, or claiming, there was a three hour gap followed by a one hour firefight.

So far as I can work out, you can only get to "a thousand rounds" by assuming that almost all victims were shot 12 times.

Has anyone seen anything further about the early witness accounts that there were at least two others in there shooting as well? I saw that in multiple places, but have never seen a confirmation of that suspicion. Granted, in such a crazy environment with bullets flying, I can believe that people might see things in the wrong light, so tend to take some of those accounts with a grain of salt, but ... with some of this here above, and paired with those claims of more than one shooter, is it possible or even probable? No idea on this end, hence asking if anyone else has heard anything further on it.

Well there was an off duty police officer, who was armed, who engaged the shooter almost as soon as the shooting began. From my understanding on duty police arrived rather rapidly and also engaged him, before he was cornered in the bathroom with several hostages. I wouldn't be surprised if people confused what was going on and thought that the responding police or off duty officer were taking part in the shooting instead of trying to stop it.

EDIT: The first officer to engage was not off duty, he was uniformed.
Last edited by Spirit of Hope on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:31 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Has anyone seen anything further about the early witness accounts that there were at least two others in there shooting as well? I saw that in multiple places, but have never seen a confirmation of that suspicion. Granted, in such a crazy environment with bullets flying, I can believe that people might see things in the wrong light, so tend to take some of those accounts with a grain of salt, but ... with some of this here above, and paired with those claims of more than one shooter, is it possible or even probable? No idea on this end, hence asking if anyone else has heard anything further on it.

Well there was an off duty police officer, who was armed, who engaged the shooter almost as soon as the shooting began. From my understanding on duty police arrived rather rapidly and also engaged him, before he was cornered in the bathroom with several hostages. I wouldn't be surprised if people confused what was going on and thought that the responding police or off duty officer were taking part in the shooting instead of trying to stop it.

EDIT: The first officer to engage was not off duty, he was uniformed.


Was this one of our "good guys with a gun" we keep hearing about?
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:42 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:Well there was an off duty police officer, who was armed, who engaged the shooter almost as soon as the shooting began. From my understanding on duty police arrived rather rapidly and also engaged him, before he was cornered in the bathroom with several hostages. I wouldn't be surprised if people confused what was going on and thought that the responding police or off duty officer were taking part in the shooting instead of trying to stop it.

EDIT: The first officer to engage was not off duty, he was uniformed.


Was this one of our "good guys with a gun" we keep hearing about?


And stopping the bad guy after what, 50 or so fatalities and 50 or so injuries?
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