Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[Paddy O Fernature]

Other than the guns, what do others here think would stop things like this. I would oppose any Muslim ban like trump wants. What would fight the radicalisation process though?

Better mental health services, as well as constantly improving the accuracy and reporting of NICS might help.

I can get behind this.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Exactly what ARE you trying to mean when you say "normal handguns"?

Probably not this then?

Do they even make pinfire ammunition anymore?

[Expectareaction]

I had a normal childhood, and I honestly don't know a single person in the real world who couldn't make a nailbomb, well some of the women I know. But seriously what kind of childhood did you have? You never read a book? You never bought a pack of firecrackers and cut them open, you never played with matches to see just what you could do? Every child in my neighborhood did these things...oh yeah. See when I was a child we went to this massive training camp called "outside". I'm guessing you learned how to make android apps, and wear guy fawkes masks or something.
I could change the oil in a car at 12, identify when the tires needed to be rotated, and hop a fence.

Boston bombers, Tim McVeigh, Abortion Clinic bombing, Atlanta Olympic bomb plot, Unibomber, etc etc
I'm not sure where you get that terrorists in this country prefer guns. It seems the more organized ones prefer bombs.

Sounds alot like my childhood, growing up in the mountains.

Video games and television were a special treat, as inside activities were reserved for days when the weather made it impossible to play outside.

The mountains, nice. I grew up in Detroit. Its clearly a generational thing. Television was what you did when you couldnt actually go DO something, same with video games.

[Grinning Dragon]

What kind of childhood did you have? You were making bombs as a12 year old? And still, why are guns still preferred by terrorists here in the us if bombs are so much easier and more deadly?

I had a normal childhood, and I honestly don't know a single person in the real world who couldn't make a nailbomb, well some of the women I know. But seriously what kind of childhood did you have? You never read a book? You never bought a pack of firecrackers and cut them open, you never played with matches to see just what you could do? Every child in my neighborhood did these things...oh yeah. See when I was a child we went to this massive training camp called "outside". I'm guessing you learned how to make android apps, and wear guy fawkes masks or something.
I could change the oil in a car at 12, identify when the tires needed to be rotated, and hop a fence.

Boston bombers, Tim McVeigh, Abortion Clinic bombing, Atlanta Olympic bomb plot, Unibomber, etc etc
I'm not sure where you get that terrorists in this country prefer guns. It seems the more organized ones prefer bombs.

Hey, we did the same stuff growing up, along with match guns, polish cannons, making gun powder, etc. Growing up we didn't stay indoors all that much and in fact most of us kids got kicked out of the house after supper and got called to come back home when it got dark, the weekends is when we stayed out till midnight or so.

[Jochizyd Republic]

Other than the guns, what do others here think would stop things like this. I would oppose any Muslim ban like trump wants. What would fight the radicalisation process though?

Easiest way as I have said and cited is partially reversing deinstitutionalization. Commit dangerously unstable people.

Other things. Stricter background checks and physcological checks on immigrants. Especially from terror prone countries.

Ban Saudi and Qatari funding.

Declare the Muslim brotherhood and the many other extremist groups terror orginizations.

More focus on patriotism and civic religion in schools.

Universal military service.

What do you mean by civic religion? I agree religion should be taught in schools and as Campbell put it "Initiatic" aspects of society should be reintroduced.

But what do you mean by that and what do you think?

[First Invictus Galactic Order]

Other than the guns, what do others here think would stop things like this. I would oppose any Muslim ban like trump wants. What would fight the radicalisation process though?

A totally overhauled mental health system to recognize people like this earlier, a wholesale annihilation the Daesh to stop their propoganda/recruiting, and greater integration and assimilation of muslim populations in developed countries to help them reject the regressive parts of their faith, as well as to help make radicalization processes as well as general criminal acts and mental instability among muslims to be more visible to authorities (for one, because more integrated muslims will be more likely to report these things when they see them in friends and family, rather than keeping to themselves like the Italians did with the mafia).

All very logical. But you know, Americans are strange. They will spend a million dollars on a fancy car, but not a dime on mental health.
I guess I will stand bye and await the day the non-disabled overcome there almost pornographic lust for guns, and awake to finally realize they too are in a sense mentally I'll.

[Expectareaction]

A totally overhauled mental health system to recognize people like this earlier, a wholesale annihilation the Daesh to stop their propoganda/recruiting, and greater integration and assimilation of muslim populations in developed countries to help them reject the regressive parts of their faith, as well as to help make radicalization processes as well as general criminal acts and mental instability among muslims to be more visible to authorities (for one, because more integrated muslims will be more likely to report these things when they see them in friends and family, rather than keeping to themselves like the Italians did with the mafia).

All very logical. But you know, Americans are strange. They will spend a million dollars on a fancy car, but not a dime on mental health.
I guess I will stand bye and await the day the non-disabled overcome there almost pornographic list for guns, and awake to finally realize they too are in a sense mentally I'll.

https://throwflame.com/ no registration required completely legal.

[Grinning Dragon]

Probably not this then?

Do they even make pinfire ammunition anymore?

One could reload

[Gun Manufacturers]

Unless he firebombed the place. Nightclub fires can be DEVASTATING. In The Station nightclub fire (West Warwick, Rhode Island), 100 people died and 230 people were injured when, during a Great White concert, outdoor pyrotechnics (gerbs, which produce showers of sparks for 15-60 seconds) were used indoors and ignited the soundproof foam insulation around the stage. Despite there being 4 exits out of the club, the majority of the people that died did so at or near the main entrance when they got logjammed in the mad dash to get away.

Again, nightclub firebombings COULD kill as many as or more people, but would they? The implication seems to be that if firearms were unavailable, people would turn towards explosives, often easily constructed with some basic household items. Can you show an increase of such bombings in nations that enacted gun restrictions?

If an attacker planned it out, possibly. I'm merely pointing out that Socialist Nordia's claim that it would have been less casualties without firearms isn't necessarily true, it could be more depending on the method. I'm not claiming that in the absence of firearms, that bombings will increase.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Oh look. The conversation has circled around again, and the same goram arguments and threadjackings are being used that were hashed and rehashed earlier.

I don't suppose there have been any updates that folks could contribute with on the status of the wounded, or further background info on the shooter that we might have a better picture of wtf was going on in that wingnuts head? Any more proof of him questioning his own sexuality? More proof of him using that front to scope out locations? What about the wife - there had been rumors of her being held accountable for what she did know and didn't report, what with her being present for some of the scouting missions, and hearing him talk about a 'terrorist action'.

For the rest, pretty sure there's a gun discussion thread open and active. There always is, or seems to be. Or an anti-gun discussion thread. Or both. With the same tired arguments and points being brought up, and bitched about, with the same misinformation or disinformation being spread, or the same facts being tossed about - usually depending on which pov you have as to which is which, unfortunately, including assumptions that gun owners are all paranoiacs who need psychiatric assistance, or that implementing more laws on already law-abiding citizens will make a real and lasting difference, or how this that or the other country has done this, so the US ought to as well, because all nations are totally the same, with similar backgrounds, histories, tendencies, laws, and problems so why not ... and it all just goes on, endlessly circling, til the plug is finally pulled by the mods, and it all gets shut down until the next one crops up. Ad infinitum.

(Yes, tired and sarcastic because that's me now and then. No, not pointing a finger at any one person, player, or post, nor intending mortal insult - just blathering on after having scanned back a few pages and come away disappointed. No mod action real or implied ought to be taken from any of that - no threats thereof, no playing mod, no 'if y'all don't stop I'ma report and then you'll be sorry' bullshit, just simple observations of how it all tends to go down eventually over time. They can't seem to keep up with their reporting forum anyhoo, and I tend to take note of only the more egregious complaints. Which this here isn't. Egregious, that is. Hope that sufficiently explains, pardon the size, but I've been Told Officially that I Cannot Small-Text Any Longer, <<unlike the rest of you fine folks, yay special rulez>> for fear that I might be intentionally using it to try and insult, rule-break, or some other nefarious deed under cover of tinyness, and my minders dislike being arsed to expand-a-text, just in case I am Naughty. Because I've always done that kind of thing, so it's to be expected. Or something. Shading it instead to at least try not to be as visually irritating to the rest of you. Disclaimer complete, thank you for bearing with me whilst I continue to try and cover my grumpy ass lest I be taken out of context or have moderators make unfortunate suppositions about my intent again.)

[Expectareaction]

snip

My bad.

The flow of the conversation.

Everyone agrees regardless of anything else, what happened was a terrible tragedy and loss of life.
No disrespect intended.

[Patridam]

All very logical. But you know, Americans are strange. They will spend a million dollars on a fancy car, but not a dime on mental health.
I guess I will stand bye and await the day the non-disabled overcome there almost pornographic lust for guns, and awake to finally realize they too are in a sense mentally I'll.

I... I feel like you are speaking to me not knowing that I am both an American and a lover of firearms (I own five). I can assure you I am not mentally ill. I treat firearms in the same way I treat automobiles.

I feel both are necessities, ones I would never willingly give up, and while I acknowledge that they are inanimate objects, they have significant meaning on a personal level to me, sort of like a pet. And while both guns and cars can be attractive or even sexy, I wouldn't say I have pornographic lust for either.

But this is getting very much off topic. Apologies.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Again, nightclub firebombings COULD kill as many as or more people, but would they? The implication seems to be that if firearms were unavailable, people would turn towards explosives, often easily constructed with some basic household items. Can you show an increase of such bombings in nations that enacted gun restrictions?

If an attacker planned it out, possibly. I'm merely pointing out that Socialist Nordia's claim that it would have been less casualties without firearms isn't necessarily true, it could be more depending on the method. I'm not claiming that in the absence of firearms, that bombings will increase.

Then it's irrelevant. It's like saying that he could have crashed a plane into the building and killed just as many people. Fact is, even though bombings (and hijacked plane crashings) do happen, they're not common methods of dealing out death on a massive scale in this country, and there's no indication that bombings would become a preferred alternative for people who would otherwise be mass shooters.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

My bad.

The flow of the conversation.

Everyone agrees regardless of anything else, what happened was a terrible tragedy and loss of life.
No disrespect intended.

One hopes, at least - there have been a few, who may or may not have felt the stinging lash of modly wrath, who've tapdanced along the line of acceptability, but it seems like we always get one or two of those, regardless of who is affected by the incident in question. Unfortunate, but jerks will jerk, one supposes. *shrugs* I wasn't suggesting anyone was attempting to be disrespectful, all the same - apologies if it came across that way. I know everyone on either side of the gun argument is rather fervent in their beliefs that they are doing it for the right reasons, and to in the end, uphold the safety of good peeps. Disrespect, I don't think, is an end-game there for any of them really.

[Patrick OConner]

All very logical. But you know, Americans are strange. They will spend a million dollars on a fancy car, but not a dime on mental health.
I guess I will stand bye and await the day the non-disabled overcome there almost pornographic lust for guns, and awake to finally realize they too are in a sense mentally I'll.

I see we probably have someone from europe or Australia in the thread. Nice to meet you by the way.

I would like to point out several things.
Vilent crime still seems to be a thing in Europe and even rising.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12112024/Violent-crime-jumps-27-in-new-figures.html

Guns are not the most common things used to murder people. Cars and hammers are higher last time i checked.
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/the-10-most-common-murder-weapons-in-the-united-states/

Banning automatic weapons will not do a thing. A shotgun is still a gun though range limited, it is a gun. A hunting rifle with a scope is a sniper rifle.

The piont raised about bombs and explosives is very very valid. One can even get manuals on how to do this stuff online. A bomb in a crowed building is very nasty. Also why do you think that the american armed forses have such problems with IEDs?

Banning guns period will not work out either. you can 3d print them up. And a person with basic fabrication skills can make them. Oh, and let us not forget the black market and smugglers.
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mhl45ediih/the-liberator/ https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

[Soldati Senza Confini]

All very logical. But you know, Americans are strange. They will spend a million dollars on a fancy car, but not a dime on mental health.
I guess I will stand bye and await the day the non-disabled overcome there almost pornographic lust for guns, and awake to finally realize they too are in a sense mentally I'll.

I see we probably have someone from europe or Australia in the thread. Nice to meet you by the way.

I would like to point out several things.
Vilent crime still seems to be a thing in europe and even rising.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12112024/Violent-crime-jumps-27-in-new-figures.html

Guns are not the most common things used to murder people. Cars and hammers are higher last time i checked.
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/the-10-most-common-murder-weapons-in-the-united-states/

Banning automatic weapons will not do a thing. A shotgun is still a gun though range limited, it is a gun. A hunting rifle with a scope is a sniper rifle.

The piont raised about bombs and explosives is very very valid. One can even get manuals on how to do this stuff online. A bomb in a crowed building is very nasty. Also why do you tthink that the american armed forses have such problems with IEDs?

What does that have to do with mental health?

[Novus America]

Easiest way as I have said and cited is partially reversing deinstitutionalization. Commit dangerously unstable people.

Other things. Stricter background checks and physcological checks on immigrants. Especially from terror prone countries.

Ban Saudi and Qatari funding.

Declare the Muslim brotherhood and the many other extremist groups terror orginizations.

More focus on patriotism and civic religion in schools.

Universal military service.

What do you mean by civic religion? I agree religion should be taught in schools and as Campbell put it "Initiatic" aspects of society should be reintroduced.

But what do you mean by that and what do you think?

This.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion

[Patrick OConner]

I see we probably have someone from europe or Australia in the thread. Nice to meet you by the way.

I would like to point out several things.
Vilent crime still seems to be a thing in europe and even rising.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12112024/Violent-crime-jumps-27-in-new-figures.html

Guns are not the most common things used to murder people. Cars and hammers are higher last time i checked.
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/the-10-most-common-murder-weapons-in-the-united-states/

Banning automatic weapons will not do a thing. A shotgun is still a gun though range limited, it is a gun. A hunting rifle with a scope is a sniper rifle.

The piont raised about bombs and explosives is very very valid. One can even get manuals on how to do this stuff online. A bomb in a crowed building is very nasty. Also why do you tthink that the american armed forses have such problems with IEDs?

What does that have to do with mental health?

All the pionts about mental health had already been made. I could not think of something else to say on it. And I knew that this was the next step in the oppenets attack plan so i decided to preempt it.

[NERVUN]

Apparently I need to post this again:

viewtopic.php?p=29067220#p29067220

Let's take a coffee break.

Re-open in 5.

Alright, let's try this again. Orlando. Orlando. Orlando.

Why does it sound like I'm trying to summon a pirate elf?

[Gauthier]

From 2004 to 2014, over 2,000 terror suspects legally purchased guns in the United States

"Membership in a terrorist organization does not prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives under current federal law," the Government Accountability Office concluded in 2010. The law prohibits felons, fugitives, drug addicts and domestic abusers from purchasing a firearm in the United States. But people on the FBI's consolidated terrorist watchlist — typically placed there when there is "reasonable suspicion" that they are a known or suspected terrorist — can freely purchase handguns or assault-style rifles.

And, as the GAO found, a number of them do: Between 2004 and 2014, suspected terrorists attempted to purchase guns from American dealers at least 2,233 times. And in 2,043 of those cases — 91 percent of the time — they succeeded. There are about 700,000 people on the watch-list — a point that civil libertarians have made to underscore that many on the list may be family members or acquaintances of people with potential terrorist connections.

Lawmakers have tried to stop this from happening. Bills have been introduced in Congress to do just that, going as far back as 2007 at the behest of then-Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.) introduced a bill to do that earlier this year. The "Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2015" would prevent several hundred gun purchases by suspected terrorists each year, and it includes provisions to let people challenge a denial if they believe they were placed on the watchlist in error.

But these bills have rarely made it out of committee, in part due to vehement opposition from the National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress. The NRA objected to earlier versions of the bill, saying they were "aimed primarily at law-abiding American gun owners," that "prohibiting the possession of firearms doesn’t stop criminals from illegally acquiring them," and that the bills were "sponsored by gun control extremists."

So back in 2015, Senator Dianne Feinstein and Representative Peter King- he of the Muslim Inquisition- proposed a bill that would have prevented terror suspects like Omar Mateen from being able to legally purchase guns and included an appeals system for people who thought they were being wrongly barred. However the bill did not pass, which is not hard to figure due to the harsh lobbying efforts of the National Rifle Association which argues that a bill like that would only target lawful gun owners as part of a massive gun control agenda. So does this mean according to the NRA, that Omar Mateen is in fact a Second Amendment rights triumph?

[Geilinor]

So back in 2015, Senator Dianne Feinstein and Representative Peter King- he of the Muslim Inquisition- proposed a bill that would have prevented terror suspects like Omar Mateen from being able to legally purchase guns and included an appeals system for people who thought they were being wrongly barred. However the bill did not pass, which is not hard to figure due to the harsh lobbying efforts of the National Rifle Association which argues that a bill like that would only target lawful gun owners as part of a massive gun control agenda. So does this mean according to the NRA, that Omar Mateen is in fact a Second Amendment rights triumph?

The NRA seems to think that there's a secret government plot to take away everyone's guns. But they've changed their position on this specific issue now.

[The Black Forrest]

The only purpose of gun control in this matter would be to make sure certain mental diseases are denied access. But I suspect the gun fanatics and the NRA would fight that.

I would rather see a discussion about mental disease and treating these people who can't get the proper help.

[Spirit of Hope]

From 2004 to 2014, over 2,000 terror suspects legally purchased guns in the United States

"Membership in a terrorist organization does not prohibit a person from possessing firearms or explosives under current federal law," the Government Accountability Office concluded in 2010. The law prohibits felons, fugitives, drug addicts and domestic abusers from purchasing a firearm in the United States. But people on the FBI's consolidated terrorist watchlist — typically placed there when there is "reasonable suspicion" that they are a known or suspected terrorist — can freely purchase handguns or assault-style rifles.

And, as the GAO found, a number of them do: Between 2004 and 2014, suspected terrorists attempted to purchase guns from American dealers at least 2,233 times. And in 2,043 of those cases — 91 percent of the time — they succeeded. There are about 700,000 people on the watch-list — a point that civil libertarians have made to underscore that many on the list may be family members or acquaintances of people with potential terrorist connections.

Lawmakers have tried to stop this from happening. Bills have been introduced in Congress to do just that, going as far back as 2007 at the behest of then-Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.) introduced a bill to do that earlier this year. The "Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2015" would prevent several hundred gun purchases by suspected terrorists each year, and it includes provisions to let people challenge a denial if they believe they were placed on the watchlist in error.

But these bills have rarely made it out of committee, in part due to vehement opposition from the National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress. The NRA objected to earlier versions of the bill, saying they were "aimed primarily at law-abiding American gun owners," that "prohibiting the possession of firearms doesn’t stop criminals from illegally acquiring them," and that the bills were "sponsored by gun control extremists."

So back in 2015, Senator Dianne Feinstein and Representative Peter King- he of the Muslim Inquisition- proposed a bill that would have prevented terror suspects like Omar Mateen from being able to legally purchase guns and included an appeals system for people who thought they were being wrongly barred. However the bill did not pass, which is not hard to figure due to the harsh lobbying efforts of the National Rifle Association which argues that a bill like that would only target lawful gun owners as part of a massive gun control agenda. So does this mean according to the NRA, that Omar Mateen is in fact a Second Amendment rights triumph?

Once again, Omar Mateen had been cleared by the FBI, and was no longer on any of their watch list, by the time he purchased the firearms used in the attacks.

Secondly how many of those purchases made by persons on the watch list have used their firearms in a crime, or been arrested for a crime related to their support for terrorism?

Finally I could almost support that bill, however I would require that the Attorney General must submit the name and reason to a judge who rules if the Attorney General has sufficient cause before the persons name goes on the list. This adds due process and a check against an overreach. Because the government has misused lists like this in the past, and continues to do so with the No Fly List.

[The Black Forrest]

So back in 2015, Senator Dianne Feinstein and Representative Peter King- he of the Muslim Inquisition- proposed a bill that would have prevented terror suspects like Omar Mateen from being able to legally purchase guns and included an appeals system for people who thought they were being wrongly barred. However the bill did not pass, which is not hard to figure due to the harsh lobbying efforts of the National Rifle Association which argues that a bill like that would only target lawful gun owners as part of a massive gun control agenda. So does this mean according to the NRA, that Omar Mateen is in fact a Second Amendment rights triumph?

The NRA seems to think that there's a secret government plot to take away everyone's guns. But they've changed their position on this specific issue now.

They have changed their stand before. When the darkies black panthers armed themselves; they thought gun control was a good idea.

[Novus America]

The only purpose of gun control in this matter would be to make sure certain mental diseases are denied access. But I suspect the gun fanatics and the NRA would fight that.

I would rather see a discussion about mental disease and treating these people who can't get the proper help.

I posted sources about an discussed mental health several times. But it got lost in the gun control debate. Mental hospitals should have been reformed, not eliminated.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/det ... ion-murder