Orlando Nightclub Shooting

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Preaching the word of Allah to the Sodomites in a gay bar for 3 years while getting piss drunk and using Grindr. Yeah, right. Plus the Pulse regulars interviewed never once mentioned Mateen ever having preached to them.

They also did not mention him ever leaving with someone.
Three years of frequenting a gay bar and having quick-hookup apps on your phone - but never actually hooking up. Odd, innit.

Jim Van Horn, a regular customer at the LGBT nightclub, told the Associated Press that Mateen often visited the club to meet men.

“He was trying to pick up people, men. He’s a homosexual and he was trying to pick up men,” Van Horn said. “That’s what people do at gay bars.”

Source.

[The Alma Mater]

They also did not mention him ever leaving with someone.
Three years of frequenting a gay bar and having quick-hookup apps on your phone - but never actually hooking up. Odd, innit.

Jim Van Horn, a regular customer at the LGBT nightclub, told the Associated Press that Mateen often visited the club to meet men.

“He was trying to pick up people, men. He’s a homosexual and he was trying to pick up men,” Van Horn said. “That’s what people do at gay bars.”

Source.

And yet no mention of him actually hooking up. The guy was reasonably goodlooking - in 3 years he should have had hundreds of successful pickups.
Number we know of sofar: 0.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

With all that on his plate, browsing jihadi websites and pledging to groups that hate each other makes Mateen a sorry ass scrabbling for attention and excuse rather than some holy jihadi warrior like a few people are trying to make him out to be.

He disagreed.

Orlando Police Dispatcher (OD): Emergency 911, this is being recorded.

Shooter (OM): In the name of God the Merciful, the beneficial [in Arabic]

OD: What?

OM: Praise be to God, and prayers as well as peace be upon the prophet of God [in Arabic]. I let you know, I'm in Orlando and I did the shootings.

OD: What's your name?

OM: My name is I pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

OD: Ok, What's your name?

OM: I pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, may God protect him [in Arabic], on behalf of the Islamic State.

OD: Alright, where are you at?

OM: In Orlando.

OD: Where in Orlando?

[End of call.]

OFC he was brown so we need some white leftists to explain what he REALLY was doing, he obviously didn't have a clue.

Dude, calling 911 before you murder someone is, like, right up there with stealing a bank with a kitchen knife.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Source.

And yet no mention of him actually hooking up. The guy was reasonably goodlooking - in 3 years he should have had hundreds of successful pickups.
Number we know of sofar: 0.

Okay. If he hung out there for three years, tried to hook up with numerous men, and ended up not doing so (whether this was due to him chickening out or men simply finding him creepy), then that actually supports the idea that this had to do with the club and his own issues with his sexuality, and not any political or religious agenda.

[The Alma Mater]

And yet no mention of him actually hooking up. The guy was reasonably goodlooking - in 3 years he should have had hundreds of successful pickups.
Number we know of sofar: 0.

Okay. If he hung out there for three years, tried to hook up with numerous men, and ended up not doing so (whether this was due to him chickening out or men simply finding him creepy), then that actually supports the idea that this had to do with the club and his own issues with his sexuality, and not any political or religious agenda.

True that. Or maybe the victims were the people he DID hook up with - and killing them felt as purification.
We shall never know.

[The Black Forrest]

With all that on his plate, browsing jihadi websites and pledging to groups that hate each other makes Mateen a sorry ass scrabbling for attention and excuse rather than some holy jihadi warrior like a few people are trying to make him out to be.

He disagreed.

Orlando Police Dispatcher (OD): Emergency 911, this is being recorded.

Shooter (OM): In the name of God the Merciful, the beneficial [in Arabic]

OD: What?

OM: Praise be to God, and prayers as well as peace be upon the prophet of God [in Arabic]. I let you know, I'm in Orlando and I did the shootings.

OD: What's your name?

OM: My name is I pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

OD: Ok, What's your name?

OM: I pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, may God protect him [in Arabic], on behalf of the Islamic State.

OD: Alright, where are you at?

OM: In Orlando.

OD: Where in Orlando?

[End of call.]

OFC he was brown so we need some white leftists to explain what he REALLY was doing, he obviously didn't have a clue.

And that means what exactly?

Ok I pledge allegiance to the Winged Hussars of Old Poland! It sounds cool but it doesn't mean much.

From the descriptions; this guy was bipolar; lived and angry existence and wanted fame.

The funny thing? He got it thanks to people wanting to know.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Okay. If he hung out there for three years, tried to hook up with numerous men, and ended up not doing so (whether this was due to him chickening out or men simply finding him creepy), then that actually supports the idea that this had to do with the club and his own issues with his sexuality, and not any political or religious agenda.

True that. Or maybe the victims were the people he DID hook up with - and killing them felt as purification.
We shall never know.

Either way, it seems that conflict about his own sexual identity may have played no small part in this.

[Grenartia]

He disagreed.



OFC he was brown so we need some white leftists to explain what he REALLY was doing, he obviously didn't have a clue.

Dude, calling 911 before you murder someone is, like, right up there with stealing a bank with a kitchen knife.

Lets not forget he's also expressed support for groups like Al-Nusra. You know, that other group of terrorists, but who also hate Daesh? Really, all the evidence reeks of him being something in between "maybe if I die as a terrorist, nobody will know I'm secretly gay, so I'll just express support for every terrorist ever" and "I hate gays so much I'm going to shoot up a gay nightclub, and I'm of middle eastern descent, so I might as well pretend to be a terrorist".

Or, for a more European equivalent, for those who cannot grasp the concept, its like somebody in 1944 expressing support for both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, purely because they both stood opposed to Western democracies. Despite the fact that they were in a brutal war with each other.

[Grenartia]

Okay. If he hung out there for three years, tried to hook up with numerous men, and ended up not doing so (whether this was due to him chickening out or men simply finding him creepy), then that actually supports the idea that this had to do with the club and his own issues with his sexuality, and not any political or religious agenda.

True that. Or maybe the victims were the people he DID hook up with - and killing them felt as purification.
We shall never know.

I'm highly skeptical of that. For one, how would he know if they were actually going to be at the club that night? Secondly, how would he where they were to specifically target them? Thirdly, even if he knew they were there, and where exactly they were, all of that info goes out the window as soon as he started shooting and people realized it. Nightclubs are already chaotic. The music itself was so chaotic, it took a while for people to realize what was going on. As soon as they did, it became even more chaotic. I don't care how good of a marksman you are, you can't single out specific people to kill in that kind of environment.

[Patridam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTFmZteROas

[Oneracon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTFmZteROas

Are you going to add some context or something? Because we don't all have 27 minutes

[Patridam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTFmZteROas

Are you going to add some context or something? Because we don't all have 27 minutes

I'm not a terrible debater, but I'm sure Sargon can articulate arguments better than I. Or at least, he has better preparation for his. Also I'm not so sure you don't have 27 minutes to spare. Two or three post-and-response cycles in a thread like this is probably 30 minutes.

But that video goes toward cultural relativsm and regressive leftists who refuse to ackowledge that islamic culture, as it currently stands, is inferior to western culture. Western culture is far from perfect, but it has, legally and socially (as a whole) rejected the intense bigotry and discrimination that still plagues middle eastern islamic culture. It was through pressure from progressives against Christianity that got western Christians and the rest of western society to totally change (again it has not reached a wholly perfect endgame but the progress has been massive) the legal and social views of homosexuality and LGBTQ as a whole. But those very same progressives outright refuse to pressure Islam and islamic culture for the same things - hell, worse things. Regressive leftists love to complain about christians and conservatives in the first world for not supporting gay marriage but refuse to pressure and discuss muslims - those in muslim countries as well as immigrants to the first world/west - who by and large believe homosexuality should not only be illegal but should be punishable by death; these people would rather tolerate intolerance than admit in some places that western culture has objective moral superiority to Islamic culture.

And this obviously relates to the orlando shooting in that no shortage of people will find anything BUT islam to blame - from guns to donald trump - for Omar's actions. Other things contributed, yes, but the primary motivation was that the man was taught to hate himself and his homosexuality because of his religious beliefs.

[Gauthier]

Are you going to add some context or something? Because we don't all have 27 minutes

I'm not a terrible debater, but I'm sure Sargon can articulate arguments better than I. Or at least, he has better preparation for his. Also I'm not so sure you don't have 27 minutes to spare. Two or three post-and-response cycles in a thread like this is probably 30 minutes.

But that video goes toward cultural relativsm and regressive leftists who refuse to ackowledge that islamic culture, as it currently stands, is inferior to western culture. Western culture is far from perfect, but it has, legally and socially (as a whole) rejected the intense bigotry and discrimination that still plagues middle eastern islamic culture. It was through pressure from progressives against Christianity that got western Christians and the rest of western society to totally change (again it has not reached a wholly perfect endgame but the progress has been massive) the legal and social views of homosexuality and LGBTQ as a whole. But those very same progressives outright refuse to pressure Islam and islamic culture for the same things - hell, worse things. Regressive leftists love to complain about christians and conservatives in the first world for not supporting gay marriage but refuse to pressure and discuss muslims - those in muslim countries as well as immigrants to the first world/west - who by and large believe homosexuality should not only be illegal but should be punishable by death; these people would rather tolerate intolerance than admit in some places that western culture has objective moral superiority to Islamic culture.

And this obviously relates to the orlando shooting in that no shortage of people will find anything BUT islam to blame - from guns to donald trump - for Omar's actions. Other things contributed, yes, but the primary motivation was that the man was taught to hate himself and his homosexuality because of his religious beliefs.

So you've latched onto the culture war screed of some YouTube manbaby because you like the sound of how progressives supposedly appease Islam and Muslims at every turn.

Nobody here has actually fucking insisted that Islam has absolutely no factor at all in Omar Mateen snapping.

What is being pointed out is that it's pure Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad bullshit to treat Mateen like some pious holy warrior who was dedicated to the cause from Day One when his documented history shows he was nowhere near observant of Islam and that he didn't know jack shit about terror groups or had any actual connections to them. Mateen's 911 "pledges" were nothing more than attention-whoring validation of his self-hatred and projection of it onto the Pulse patrons.

Also, the culture war bullshit is an attempt to dismiss and downplay the role that Christianity has played in the oppression of LGBTs in the United States.

Was it Muslims who forced Bill Clinton to compromise on LGBTs in the military with Don't Ask Don't Tell? Was it Muslims who pushed for the Defense of Marriage Act? Was it Muslims who pushed through Proposition 8 in Caifornia? And was it Muslims in North Carolina and Oklahoma that enacted bathroom bills?

It's rather tempting to act like it's Not So Bad just because they don't throw LGBTs off rooftops now isn't it? Much more convenient and lazy to point the finger at some foreign religion that has little to no power here and some foreign powers that nobody here has a realistic chance to change much less overthrow because The Muslim Menace is a convenient scapegoat to distract from how it's Christians that have the real power here and insured the inequality for decades.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

And yet no mention of him actually hooking up. The guy was reasonably goodlooking - in 3 years he should have had hundreds of successful pickups.
Number we know of sofar: 0.

Okay. If he hung out there for three years, tried to hook up with numerous men, and ended up not doing so (whether this was due to him chickening out or men simply finding him creepy), then that actually supports the idea that this had to do with the club and his own issues with his sexuality, and not any political or religious agenda.

Or maybe he was casing the place. Wanted to be a familiar face so he wouldn't draw unnecessary attention when he came by the day he wanted to kill them. Blend in with them.

Of course it is irrelevant, anyways. He shot up the club because it was an LGBT club. He shot up the people because they where LGBT people. ISIS, no ISIS (which is a hard thing to claim considering the 911 transcript), he hated LGBT people, even if he hated himself as well.

[Gauthier]

Okay. If he hung out there for three years, tried to hook up with numerous men, and ended up not doing so (whether this was due to him chickening out or men simply finding him creepy), then that actually supports the idea that this had to do with the club and his own issues with his sexuality, and not any political or religious agenda.

Or maybe he was casing the place. Wanted to be a familiar face so he wouldn't draw unnecessary attention when he came by the day he wanted to kill them. Blend in with them.

Of course it is irrelevant, anyways. He shot up the club because it was an LGBT club. He shot up the people because they where LGBT people. ISIS, no ISIS (which is a hard thing to claim considering the 911 transcript), he hated LGBT people, even if he hated himself as well.

Oh here we go again with the Three Year Casing bullshit. If he was casing the place he would have tried to be inconspicuous as possible rather than getting piss drunk and being noticed for angry outbursts like he did.

[The Alexanderians]

Or maybe he was casing the place. Wanted to be a familiar face so he wouldn't draw unnecessary attention when he came by the day he wanted to kill them. Blend in with them.

Of course it is irrelevant, anyways. He shot up the club because it was an LGBT club. He shot up the people because they where LGBT people. ISIS, no ISIS (which is a hard thing to claim considering the 911 transcript), he hated LGBT people, even if he hated himself as well.

Oh here we go again with the Three Year Casing bullshit. If he was casing the place he would have tried to be inconspicuous as possible rather than getting piss drunk and being noticed for angry outbursts like he did.

No one ever said he had to be good at it. You know people are flawed and they make these things called "mistakes". Not all criminals are masterminds at it.

[Gauthier]

Oh here we go again with the Three Year Casing bullshit. If he was casing the place he would have tried to be inconspicuous as possible rather than getting piss drunk and being noticed for angry outbursts like he did.

No one ever said he had to be good at it. You know people are flawed and they make these things called "mistakes". Not all criminals are masterminds at it.

Forget Idris Elba or Tom Hiddleston. Omar Mateen is the next James Bond.

[Geilinor]

Or maybe he was casing the place. Wanted to be a familiar face so he wouldn't draw unnecessary attention when he came by the day he wanted to kill them. Blend in with them.

Of course it is irrelevant, anyways. He shot up the club because it was an LGBT club. He shot up the people because they where LGBT people. ISIS, no ISIS (which is a hard thing to claim considering the 911 transcript), he hated LGBT people, even if he hated himself as well.

Oh here we go again with the Three Year Casing bullshit. If he was casing the place he would have tried to be inconspicuous as possible rather than getting piss drunk and being noticed for angry outbursts like he did.

Unless we have some good evidence that he was gay and self-hating, how about we don't speculate? I don't think he deserves any of this attention.

[Gauthier]

Oh here we go again with the Three Year Casing bullshit. If he was casing the place he would have tried to be inconspicuous as possible rather than getting piss drunk and being noticed for angry outbursts like he did.

Unless we have some good evidence that he was gay and self-hating, how about we don't speculate? I don't think he deserves any of this attention.

But it's okay to assume that he was CASING a gay nightclub for three straight years like some ninja assassin when a couple of weeks would have been more than enough to scope out a good time to strike.

[Patridam]

So you've latched onto the culture war screed of some YouTube manbaby because you like the sound of how progressives supposedly appease Islam and Muslims at every turn.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you didn't even listen to any of the man's videos and are going to instead attack my less than perfect summary. Very well. But it's not one "manbaby" - an insult which I really don't understand the logic behind (what, is that just what we call males whose opinions we don't agree with now?) - it's several. Sargon and Armored Skeptic just happen to be my favorites.

Nobody here has actually fucking insisted that Islam has absolutely no factor at all in Omar Mateen snapping.

What is being pointed out is that it's pure Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad bullshit to treat Mateen like some pious holy warrior who was dedicated to the cause from Day One when his documented history shows he was nowhere near observant of Islam and that he didn't know jack shit about terror groups or had any actual connections to them. Mateen's 911 "pledges" were nothing more than attention-whoring validation of his self-hatred and projection of it onto the Pulse patrons.

Hmm....

I mean, I am not saying, by any stretch of the imagination, that Islam is at fault.

We've got outright denials...

Radical "Islam" is not islamic, it is using the name islamic in the same fucking fashion the KKK used "Christian"

False equivalancies and "no true scotsman arguments"...

I'll worry about fundamentalism when an actual fundamentalist makes a move

A lot of the no true scotsman, actually....

Calling Omar Mateen a terrorist seems to be giving a self-hating closet dwelling unstable fuck more credit than he really deserves.

And of course, willful misdirection...

Yeah, nobody on here at all denied or downplayed the involvement of islam in this incident, whatsoever.

Also, the culture war bullshit is an attempt to dismiss and downplay the role that Christianity has played in the oppression of LGBTs in the United States.

Was it Muslims who forced Bill Clinton to compromise on LGBTs in the military with Don't Ask Don't Tell? Was it Muslims who pushed for the Defense of Marriage Act? Was it Muslims who pushed through Proposition 8 in Caifornia? And was it Muslims in North Carolina and Oklahoma that enacted bathroom bills?

It's rather tempting to act like it's Not So Bad just because they don't throw LGBTs off rooftops now isn't it? Much more convenient and lazy to point the finger at some foreign religion that has little to no power here and some foreign powers that nobody here has a realistic chance to change much less overthrow because The Muslim Menace is a convenient scapegoat to distract from how it's Christians that have the real power here and insured the inequality for decades.

In the United States, yes Christians have more power than muslims for certain. But they are more impotent by the day, with the religion having less relevance even to the Republican party. And, hell, if you're including the old testatment in with modern Christianity, than the actual scriptures of the Christian faith are only barely more progressive and tolerant (which is to say, no much) than the Quran. The difference in the west has been that progressives, and yes, liberal and moderate christians, have sucessfully rejected the intolerant parts of the faith for a better society in the west. The west is far from being perfect, and in some ways is getting further from it thanks to the regressive left and other groups, but it's a damn sight better than the middle east THANKS TO that sucessful rejection the extremes of religions.While we have petty quibbles as the fundamentalist Christians try (and inevitably fail) to make us turn around with abortion and gay marriage, Islamic countries have majorities of fundamentalists that believe that women should not show anything but their eyes as they go outside (accompanied by a male relative) let alone get an abortion, and that gays should be put to death, if not via being thrown off buildings then by sword or stoning. Islam being eradicated in any way is an impossibility, so it must go through the same progression and revision that Christianity has gone through to make Islamic culture anywhere near the moral and objective equal to western culture.

[The Alexanderians]

No one ever said he had to be good at it. You know people are flawed and they make these things called "mistakes". Not all criminals are masterminds at it.

Forget Idris Elba or Tom Hiddleston. Omar Mateen is the next James Bond.

What the hell are you on about?

[The Alexanderians]

Unless we have some good evidence that he was gay and self-hating, how about we don't speculate? I don't think he deserves any of this attention.

But it's okay to assume that he was CASING a gay nightclub for three straight years like some ninja assassin when a couple of weeks would have been more than enough to scope out a good time to strike.

You you're self said the method was poor...why are you know calling his methods "ninja assassin"?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Hmm....

I mean, I am not saying, by any stretch of the imagination, that Islam is at fault.

We've got outright denials...

Isn't that part of my writing? Because apparently you nitpicked a sentence of my entire paragraph and decided it meant I was denying Islam had something to do with it.

I didn't. If you see what I've said it is entirely clear what I meant.

Of course, I can't really expect you to be honest about what I said, now can I?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Okay. If he hung out there for three years, tried to hook up with numerous men, and ended up not doing so (whether this was due to him chickening out or men simply finding him creepy), then that actually supports the idea that this had to do with the club and his own issues with his sexuality, and not any political or religious agenda.

Or maybe he was casing the place. Wanted to be a familiar face so he wouldn't draw unnecessary attention when he came by the day he wanted to kill them. Blend in with them.

Of course it is irrelevant, anyways. He shot up the club because it was an LGBT club. He shot up the people because they where LGBT people. ISIS, no ISIS (which is a hard thing to claim considering the 911 transcript), he hated LGBT people, even if he hated himself as well.

He cased the place for three years? Seriously? And the drinking and trying to pick up on men was part of his cover?

Look, his religion obviously had something to do with this, though as Gauth points out, he was obviously no holy warrior. Why are people having such a fucking issue with the idea that this may have had more to do with issues regarding his own sexuality than any actual sense of serious religious piety that he'd never previously shown?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Oh here we go again with the Three Year Casing bullshit. If he was casing the place he would have tried to be inconspicuous as possible rather than getting piss drunk and being noticed for angry outbursts like he did.

Unless we have some good evidence that he was gay and self-hating, how about we don't speculate? I don't think he deserves any of this attention.

He hung out at a gay club for three years, where witnesses have said that he drank and picked up on men.

He had gay hookup apps on his phone.

What else do you need? Bottled water in a bag by his corpse?