Presumtion of 'Heaven'

[Dushan]

Myeh... that's just getting worked up over nothing.

Heh... works on multiple levels again.

I forgot to ask. but how does it work out on multiple levels again? ^^

[Arach-Naga Combine]

I offer you comfort in knowledge: once you die, it won't bother you at all.

I go with two possibilities.

One: I'm right that there is nothing post-mortem, in which case I'll be too dead to give a fuck.

Two: I'm wrong, and there is something after-death, in which case I'll probably say 'WELP! Guess its time for a pop tart.'

And in either case: better when buttered.

[The Isles of Lux]

I believe he is bothered by the very fact that he won't be bothered.

Then maybe he should use that meta-anxiety time doing almost anything instead. Like community service, or learning a language, or organizing a multinational robo-wrestling league that renders obsolete most combat sports.

Doing something like that to distract oneself from the reality of the situation you have found yourself in via meta-anxious ponderings is not a satisfying solution. Now that I have realized, accepted, and almost come to terms with the despair provided to me by the infiniteness of reality and the finiteness of my own consciousness, I find myself unwilling to let go to the existential depression that has consumed me. This is explained very well in Kierkegaard's "Levels of Despair", especially in the fourth one. At this stage of existential despair, you have embraced the meaninglessness of your own life so fully that nothing could ever take this realization from you. Even if the Almighty Creator himself came to you and offered you deliverance from the despair, you would refuse.

As I said earlier, once you have recognized the reality of the human condition, it is quite difficult to bring yourself to distract yourself from it.

[Killdash]

I believe he is bothered by the very fact that he won't be bothered.

Then maybe he should use that meta-anxiety time doing almost anything instead. Like community service, or learning a language, or organizing a multinational robo-wrestling league that renders obsolete most combat sports.

Lux has it point on. I know I won't know, but for the world to lose all that seems a despicable sham, so I'll continue to fight on.

Lose all of what? Nothing important dies with a person. If the end of your life is the end of your worth, it had none. Do something worthwhile or enjoyable, stop worrying about not existing. It'll happen and you won't exist to care.

I AM doing just that. It motivates me to do my best. It's why I take 8 languages, it's why I work hard for the best opportunity. It's why I hone the relevant skills to make my dream possible.

[Godular]

Myeh... that's just getting worked up over nothing.

Heh... works on multiple levels again.

I forgot to ask. but how does it work out on multiple levels again? ^^

Well, you're getting worked up over something that really won't be a concern when the time comes... And that something will be 'nothing'.

I go with two possibilities.

One: I'm right that there is nothing post-mortem, in which case I'll be too dead to give a fuck.

Two: I'm wrong, and there is something after-death, in which case I'll probably say 'WELP! Guess its time for a pop tart.'

And in either case: better when buttered.

Darn tootin'.

[Ayaroko]

Then maybe he should use that meta-anxiety time doing almost anything instead. Like community service, or learning a language, or organizing a multinational robo-wrestling league that renders obsolete most combat sports.

Doing something like that to distract oneself from the reality of the situation you have found yourself in via meta-anxious ponderings is not a satisfying solution. Now that I have realized, accepted, and almost come to terms with the despair provided to me by the infiniteness of reality and the finiteness of my own consciousness, I find myself unwilling to let go to the existential depression that has consumed me. This is explained very well in Kierkegaard's "Levels of Despair", especially in the fourth one. At this stage of existential despair, you have embraced the meaninglessness of your own life so fully that nothing could ever take this realization from you. Even if the Almighty Creator himself came to you and offered you deliverance from the despair, you would refuse.

As I said earlier, once you have recognized the reality of the human condition, it is quite difficult to bring yourself to distract yourself from it.

No offense, but Kierkegaard sounds like a moron.

"I have found out a fact. It makes me very sad."

Evidence is presented against that fact.

"I refuse the irrefutable evidence, and am still sad."

That goes against all logic and rational thinking.

[Great Feng]

thing about heaven:
As a Christian, I recognize it is improvable and cannot be traveled to while alive.
Why so?
Well one, if it is provable, it means you don't need to have faith and take the risk of believing in God, and thus the Bible would be a moot point if we knew God existed and the entire reason for the Bible, Revelations, and well, everything we do following the bible would be pointless. If we knew that God existed, we wouldn't need Revelations, we wouldn't need to watch out for the antichrist, we wouldn't need to really preach at all. It's complicated to explain and I'm sure someone can explain it better than me, but I'll try to sum it up: If God made it so we could prove his existence then our reasons for studying the Bible, having faith, and doing a lot of what he tells us to do is kinda pointless, as we would be doing it knowing that he and heaven exists, which defeats the entire purpose of the Bible and the Christian religion. And Heaven is where God is, so thus, he hid heaven from us in a way that we cannot find it. Why exactly? It defeats the purpose of creating the Bible and all the stuff we are taught.

Now, Heaven cannot be traveled to because dying would then be unnecessary and we could instead work on technology to one day travel there, and thus, we wouldn't need to follow his religion. So he also made it be unable to be traveled to while alive and unable to be found, detected, and followed by the living and all humanmade technology. As such, we cannot find or go to it, we have to wait and follow the Bible, that's why Heaven is unprovable and unable to be traveled to by mortal beings.

[The Isles of Lux]

Lose all of what? Nothing important dies with a person. If the end of your life is the end of your worth, it had none. Do something worthwhile or enjoyable, stop worrying about not existing. It'll happen and you won't exist to care.

The cause of the pain here is not that he has done nothing in his life. It is that everything he has done has absolutely no worth. It isn't that he is worried that once he is gone the Universe will be robbed of his magnificence, it is that no matter what anyone does there is no true magnificence for the Universe to be robbed of. Well, at least, that is how I have interpreted it. I'm very possibly wrong.

[Dushan]

Well, you're getting worked up over something that really won't be a concern when the time comes... And that something will be 'nothing'.

Makes sense. Well the basic idea there was that there comes that "WELP! OH SNAP!" moment.

[Valaran]

Not something I would claim to know much about.

I do hope there is something better than the void, however.

[Godular]

thing about heaven:
As a Christian, I recognize it is improvable and cannot be traveled to while alive.
Why so?
Well one, if it is provable, it means you don't need to have faith and take the risk of believing in God, and thus the Bible would be a moot point if we knew God existed and the entire reason for the Bible, Revelations, and well, everything we do following the bible would be pointless. If we knew that God existed, we wouldn't need Revelations, we wouldn't need to watch out for the antichrist, we wouldn't need to really preach at all. It's complicated to explain and I'm sure someone can explain it better than me, but I'll try to sum it up: If God made it so we could prove his existence then our reasons for studying the Bible, having faith, and doing a lot of what he tells us to do is kinda pointless, as we would be doing it knowing that he and heaven exists, which defeats the entire purpose of the Bible and the Christian religion. And Heaven is where God is, so thus, he hid heaven from us in a way that we cannot find it. Why exactly? It defeats the purpose of creating the Bible and all the stuff we are taught.

Now, Heaven cannot be traveled to because dying would then be unnecessary and we could instead work on technology to one day travel there, and thus, we wouldn't need to follow his religion. So he also made it be unable to be traveled to while alive and unable to be found, detected, and followed by the living and all humanmade technology. As such, we cannot find or go to it, we have to wait and follow the Bible, that's why Heaven is unprovable and unable to be traveled to by mortal beings.

Which really just brings the whole thing down to 'Whatever helps you sleep at night'.

[Jolet]

You seem to be missing the point, my friend, nevermind the absurdity of "getting lucky" simply by existing. If there is nothing at the end of the road, anything and everything you've done with your life simply does not matter. Death is the ultimate equalizer- and eraser of great things. If there is nothing beyond the point of death, you could be the worst possible person, and still end up with the same net result as the best possible person- zilch. Absolutely no benefit or repercussions for your actions on the whole.

Therefore, why bother being good, if you're going to end up being dead anyway? Why not act in the way that makes you the happiest, rather than benefiting everyone around you at your own cost? Because, I can guarantee, you will not be remembered even half a century after you kicked the bucket. Unless you're Napoleon, which I sincerely doubt you are. Without an afterlife of some kind, nothing matters, and there is no ultimate purpose to life.

Oh no, I'm eminently aware of the point. By 'you got lucky' I mean, you happened to be the first spermatozoa to meet that ovum after the people who would come to be your parents engaged in a process refined over millions of years, on a planet refined over billions of years to support your existence (maybe not perfectly, but enough so in the cosmic scheme of things), in a universe based on incredibly simple rules that come together to produce a phenomenally complex universe that we are but an infinitesimal component of.

Me? I want me some of that. Know how I would least take advantage of a big honking planet with a big honking plethora of experiences to experience? By getting myself thrown in jail and spending the remainder of my life staring at concrete walls. It is in a person's self-interest to be a team player, and one can find greater fulfillment in life by interacting with others and working for mutual benefit than one would find while only operating in accordance with personal self-interest. A person might not last long, but communities can change greatly, and it is a disservice to assume that the things that you do will be forgotten so easily.

Your actions cause impressions upon other people, and those impressions influence how those other people behave to still more people. Maybe you wouldn't care if those impressions are positive or negative, so long as you get yours. That is your choice, and your burden. Me, I choose to build foundations of knowledge that those who follow me can act upon. That is the purpose I have taken upon myself.

Is there an 'ultimate purpose' to life? Aside from 'Keep the ball rolling as long as you can', probably not. Instead of lamenting the lack of purpose... make your own.

I don't like the numbers game. Simply saying, "Well, you're unique because the stars aligned on the day you were conceived and then nine months later you were born on the night of a blue moon" does not make it so. Everybody else is special too- some more special than others, whether that be exceptional or aberrant- but in the end, without an afterlife, it all becomes moot. Doesn't matter- we all end up dead.

That is the short view. Communities generally don't last longer than 40 or 50 years- the most exceptional ones have never lasted longer than a millenium, and we're talking about the Holy Roman Empire at that point. In the end, time levels any and all marks you attempt to make on history- unless you're Jesus. He's sort of the exception to the rule, which is a little odd. At least, right now, anyway. Who knows if that'll continue. But I digress.

On the small scale, a community will not remember you after you're gone for good. Give it a few years- maybe ten, twenty- and then if you were to come back you'd find that you'd been forgotten. That's how life works- ever chugging forward, writing the future over the memories of the past.

The argument that people matter also doesn't hold water. Believe it or not, they're going to be dead too. That happens enough times and any impact that you goes up in smoke, eventually. Therefore, your contributions, in the long run, do. Not. Matter. At least, not without an afterlife or something along those lines that makes it worth remembering.

[Godular]

Well, you're getting worked up over something that really won't be a concern when the time comes... And that something will be 'nothing'.

Makes sense. Well the basic idea there was that there comes that "WELP! OH SNAP!" moment.

You won't even get that. You'll rather literally be too dead to care. In that way, there is mercy.

Fretting over it only serves to get your heart rate up without cause. Don't do dat. Zen, man. Zen.

[The Isles of Lux]

Doing something like that to distract oneself from the reality of the situation you have found yourself in via meta-anxious ponderings is not a satisfying solution. Now that I have realized, accepted, and almost come to terms with the despair provided to me by the infiniteness of reality and the finiteness of my own consciousness, I find myself unwilling to let go to the existential depression that has consumed me. This is explained very well in Kierkegaard's "Levels of Despair", especially in the fourth one. At this stage of existential despair, you have embraced the meaninglessness of your own life so fully that nothing could ever take this realization from you. Even if the Almighty Creator himself came to you and offered you deliverance from the despair, you would refuse.

As I said earlier, once you have recognized the reality of the human condition, it is quite difficult to bring yourself to distract yourself from it.

No offense, but Kierkegaard sounds like a moron.

"I have found out a fact. It makes me very sad."

Evidence is presented against that fact.

"I refuse the irrefutable evidence, and am still sad."

That goes against all logic and rational thinking.

In this situation he did not refuse irrefutable evidence (God's intervention?). He merely saw no reason to see the evidence of the falsity of his realization to be noteworthy. You see, at this fourth and last level of despair he has reached the point at which he has realized that even the opinion and beliefs of the Almighty Creator mean nothing. Sort of like saying, "If there is no God to enforce morality, there is no morality. But even if there is a God, what is it that makes his 'morality' so moral after all?" God may have offered him deliverance from the pain by jumping in and saying "Hey! Guess what? There is an afterlife, and life matters after all!" And Kierkegaard responded with, "Why does the existence of you and your afterlife make reality any more meaningful?"

Of course, Kierkegaard eventually decided that he could never reach this stage of existential despair and that he had to settle for the "leap of faith" where he blindly put his trust in the existence of some kind of supernaturally-imposed meaning.

[Arach-Naga Combine]

Oh no, I'm eminently aware of the point. By 'you got lucky' I mean, you happened to be the first spermatozoa to meet that ovum after the people who would come to be your parents engaged in a process refined over millions of years, on a planet refined over billions of years to support your existence (maybe not perfectly, but enough so in the cosmic scheme of things), in a universe based on incredibly simple rules that come together to produce a phenomenally complex universe that we are but an infinitesimal component of.

Me? I want me some of that. Know how I would least take advantage of a big honking planet with a big honking plethora of experiences to experience? By getting myself thrown in jail and spending the remainder of my life staring at concrete walls. It is in a person's self-interest to be a team player, and one can find greater fulfillment in life by interacting with others and working for mutual benefit than one would find while only operating in accordance with personal self-interest. A person might not last long, but communities can change greatly, and it is a disservice to assume that the things that you do will be forgotten so easily.

Your actions cause impressions upon other people, and those impressions influence how those other people behave to still more people. Maybe you wouldn't care if those impressions are positive or negative, so long as you get yours. That is your choice, and your burden. Me, I choose to build foundations of knowledge that those who follow me can act upon. That is the purpose I have taken upon myself.

Is there an 'ultimate purpose' to life? Aside from 'Keep the ball rolling as long as you can', probably not. Instead of lamenting the lack of purpose... make your own.

I don't like the numbers game. Simply saying, "Well, you're unique because the stars aligned on the day you were conceived and then nine months later you were born on the night of a blue moon" does not make it so. Everybody else is special too- some more special than others, whether that be exceptional or aberrant- but in the end, without an afterlife, it all becomes moot. Doesn't matter- we all end up dead.

That is the short view. Communities generally don't last longer than 40 or 50 years- the most exceptional ones have never lasted longer than a millenium, and we're talking about the Holy Roman Empire at that point. In the end, time levels any and all marks you attempt to make on history- unless you're Jesus. He's sort of the exception to the rule, which is a little odd. At least, right now, anyway. Who knows if that'll continue. But I digress.

On the small scale, a community will not remember you after you're gone for good. Give it a few years- maybe ten, twenty- and then if you were to come back you'd find that you'd been forgotten. That's how life works- ever chugging forward, writing the future over the memories of the past.

The argument that people matter also doesn't hold water. Believe it or not, they're going to be dead too. That happens enough times and any impact that you goes up in smoke, eventually. Therefore, your contributions, in the long run, do. Not. Matter. At least, not without an afterlife or something along those lines that makes it worth remembering.

Why does it matter to you that anything you do is [permanent, impactful, remembered, important, etc]? You keep throwing this out like it has any relevance, so tell us why.

[Dushan]

Makes sense. Well the basic idea there was that there comes that "WELP! OH SNAP!" moment.

You won't even get that. You'll rather literally be too dead to care. In that way, there is mercy.

Fretting over it only serves to get your heart rate up without cause. Don't do dat. Zen, man. Zen.

No worries I am kinda chill. And since we're talking about it, I am actually kinda into Zen.

[Jolet]

I don't like the numbers game. Simply saying, "Well, you're unique because the stars aligned on the day you were conceived and then nine months later you were born on the night of a blue moon" does not make it so. Everybody else is special too- some more special than others, whether that be exceptional or aberrant- but in the end, without an afterlife, it all becomes moot. Doesn't matter- we all end up dead.

That is the short view. Communities generally don't last longer than 40 or 50 years- the most exceptional ones have never lasted longer than a millenium, and we're talking about the Holy Roman Empire at that point. In the end, time levels any and all marks you attempt to make on history- unless you're Jesus. He's sort of the exception to the rule, which is a little odd. At least, right now, anyway. Who knows if that'll continue. But I digress.

On the small scale, a community will not remember you after you're gone for good. Give it a few years- maybe ten, twenty- and then if you were to come back you'd find that you'd been forgotten. That's how life works- ever chugging forward, writing the future over the memories of the past.

The argument that people matter also doesn't hold water. Believe it or not, they're going to be dead too. That happens enough times and any impact that you goes up in smoke, eventually. Therefore, your contributions, in the long run, do. Not. Matter. At least, not without an afterlife or something along those lines that makes it worth remembering.

Why does it matter to you that anything you do is [permanent, impactful, remembered, important, etc]? You keep throwing this out like it has any relevance, so tell us why.

Valid question. Simple answer. I am arguing that having an afterlife puts life itself in a frame that makes your existence meaningful, and therefore permanent and impactful and worthy of being remembered. Remove that frame (there is no afterlife) and all that goes away. Whether or not that's a good thing, I dunno. Up to you to figure that one out. But the point stands.

[The Isles of Lux]

I don't like the numbers game. Simply saying, "Well, you're unique because the stars aligned on the day you were conceived and then nine months later you were born on the night of a blue moon" does not make it so. Everybody else is special too- some more special than others, whether that be exceptional or aberrant- but in the end, without an afterlife, it all becomes moot. Doesn't matter- we all end up dead.

That is the short view. Communities generally don't last longer than 40 or 50 years- the most exceptional ones have never lasted longer than a millenium, and we're talking about the Holy Roman Empire at that point. In the end, time levels any and all marks you attempt to make on history- unless you're Jesus. He's sort of the exception to the rule, which is a little odd. At least, right now, anyway. Who knows if that'll continue. But I digress.

On the small scale, a community will not remember you after you're gone for good. Give it a few years- maybe ten, twenty- and then if you were to come back you'd find that you'd been forgotten. That's how life works- ever chugging forward, writing the future over the memories of the past.

The argument that people matter also doesn't hold water. Believe it or not, they're going to be dead too. That happens enough times and any impact that you goes up in smoke, eventually. Therefore, your contributions, in the long run, do. Not. Matter. At least, not without an afterlife or something along those lines that makes it worth remembering.

Why does it matter to you that anything you do is [permanent, impactful, remembered, important, etc]? You keep throwing this out like it has any relevance, so tell us why.

My point is that even if something you do is remembered for thousands of years, and does impact every human in existence- so what?

In addition- we have spent all this time arguing about whether or not our existence and mark on reality is of any importance, but how do we even know that reality is, well, real? This gives me two thoughts.
A: Taking for granted that reality is actually what I think, and does actually exist, why does it matter? And why does it matter whatever the fuck happens in this reality, especially in relation to me?
B: How do I even know that the reality which I perceive is in fact reality? Because if it isn't, it adds an entirely new layer of consideration into this conversation.

[Arach-Naga Combine]

Why does it matter to you that anything you do is [permanent, impactful, remembered, important, etc]? You keep throwing this out like it has any relevance, so tell us why.

Valid question. Simple answer. I am arguing that having an afterlife puts life itself in a frame that makes your existence meaningful, and therefore permanent and impactful and worthy of being remembered. Remove that frame (there is no afterlife) and all that goes away. Whether or not that's a good thing, I dunno. Up to you to figure that one out. But the point stands.

No, it doesn't. You did absolutely nothing to answer the question. You merely asserted that an afterlife made life so - an assertion which I wholeheartedly reject. Try again?



@isles of lux
I don't think "reality being real" is important in any discussion. It can never inform any decision, be used to gain knowledge, or be arrived at through any form of argument. It's a nonsense premise AND conclusion.

[Jolet]

You seem to be missing the point, my friend, nevermind the absurdity of "getting lucky" simply by existing. If there is nothing at the end of the road, anything and everything you've done with your life simply does not matter. Death is the ultimate equalizer- and eraser of great things. If there is nothing beyond the point of death, you could be the worst possible person, and still end up with the same net result as the best possible person- zilch. Absolutely no benefit or repercussions for your actions on the whole.

Therefore, why bother being good, if you're going to end up being dead anyway? Why not act in the way that makes you the happiest, rather than benefiting everyone around you at your own cost? Because, I can guarantee, you will not be remembered even half a century after you kicked the bucket. Unless you're Napoleon, which I sincerely doubt you are. Without an afterlife of some kind, nothing matters, and there is no ultimate purpose to life.

I hear this argument often, and I always think the same response. We cannot believe in something simply because the alternative is distasteful. We cannot believe that there is no war, that there is no genocide, that there is no racism, just because we find it unpalatable. We must go throughout our lives completely objectively, or as close as we can. If there is an afterlife, then your objective philanthropy will be noted. If there is not, you have left the world a kinder place, for future generations. Many people are not remembered, but their effects are still felt in the world.

The difference between an afterlife and racism is that one's properties can be observed, and the other has never been credibly, objectively observed, nor can it be. And, I hate to break it to you, but the impact of people's lives is incredibly short. Unless you're someone who goes down in history, your memory lasts for about thirty years before you're completely, totally and utterly forgotten by the "community". The written record lasts longer, certainly, but it's also for the most part ignored and eventually buried. There is simply too much information in the history of the human race for us to know and store inside of our heads, much less record. In the end, you will be forgotten, and therefore cease to matter.

[Jolet]

Valid question. Simple answer. I am arguing that having an afterlife puts life itself in a frame that makes your existence meaningful, and therefore permanent and impactful and worthy of being remembered. Remove that frame (there is no afterlife) and all that goes away. Whether or not that's a good thing, I dunno. Up to you to figure that one out. But the point stands.

No, it doesn't. You did absolutely nothing to answer the question. You merely asserted that an afterlife made life so - an assertion which I wholeheartedly reject. Try again?

Uh. Perhaps I'm being a bit thick at the moment, but your third statement- the bolded one, there- makes little sense. I'm not arguing causality here, I'm arguing whether or not it matters. And I think that, without something after it, what you do now and before you die doesn't matter, ultimately. Does that make sense?

EDIT: Okay, I think I'm understanding it now. This is a personal question, then. Well, I think everyone's goal in life- sans my own, as it happens- is to be remembered in some form. Whether that memorialization comes in the form of an awared or a trophy or a golden parachute or a statue erected in the center of the capital, we inherently want to be recognized for our achievements. People complain all the time about being passed over for a promotion, or being ignored by a friend. I would classify that as a part of that overarching drive to be remembered or acknowledged that all of us face, though to what degree and in what fashion obviously varies. Does that sufficiently answer the prompt?

[The Isles of Lux]

I hear this argument often, and I always think the same response. We cannot believe in something simply because the alternative is distasteful. We cannot believe that there is no war, that there is no genocide, that there is no racism, just because we find it unpalatable. We must go throughout our lives completely objectively, or as close as we can. If there is an afterlife, then your objective philanthropy will be noted. If there is not, you have left the world a kinder place, for future generations. Many people are not remembered, but their effects are still felt in the world.

The difference between an afterlife and racism is that one's properties can be observed, and the other has never been credibly, objectively observed, nor can it be. And, I hate to break it to you, but the impact of people's lives is incredibly short. Unless you're someone who goes down in history, your memory lasts for about thirty years before you're completely, totally and utterly forgotten by the "community". The written record lasts longer, certainly, but it's also for the most part ignored and eventually buried. There is simply too much information in the history of the human race for us to know and store inside of our heads, much less record. In the end, you will be forgotten, and therefore cease to matter.

Even if what you are someone who goes down in history, you still don't matter. The recognition of the community does not matter at all when looked at in this sense, because the community does not matter. Even something which could last for all of time and reach out across all of infinity would not matter, because all of time and all of infinity does not matter either.

[Jolet]

The difference between an afterlife and racism is that one's properties can be observed, and the other has never been credibly, objectively observed, nor can it be. And, I hate to break it to you, but the impact of people's lives is incredibly short. Unless you're someone who goes down in history, your memory lasts for about thirty years before you're completely, totally and utterly forgotten by the "community". The written record lasts longer, certainly, but it's also for the most part ignored and eventually buried. There is simply too much information in the history of the human race for us to know and store inside of our heads, much less record. In the end, you will be forgotten, and therefore cease to matter.

Even if what you are someone who goes down in history, you still don't matter. The recognition of the community does not matter at all when looked at in this sense, because the community does not matter. Even something which could last for all of time and reach out across all of infinity would not matter, because all of time and all of infinity does not matter either.

Well... *head scratch* it's a nihlistic view, certainly, but in the context of the discussion it's technically valid... Obviously, since I believe in an afterlife I don't agree that's what's going to happen, but it is the logical view of it.

[Arach-Naga Combine]

No, it doesn't. You did absolutely nothing to answer the question. You merely asserted that an afterlife made life so - an assertion which I wholeheartedly reject. Try again?

Uh. Perhaps I'm being a bit thick at the moment, but your third statement- the bolded one, there- makes little sense. I'm not arguing causality here, I'm arguing whether or not it matters. And I think that, without something after it, what you do now and before you die doesn't matter, ultimately. Does that make sense?

You assert that an afterlife is required to make life meaningful, important, etc. I say that's really idiotic and backwards. Tell me how a thing can become more valuable the more plentiful it becomes.

In any case, you never said WHY meaninful, remembered, permanent were in any way things that measure the worth of our lives. Once again, i'm calling bullshit on your very metrics. You assert, but do not demonstrate, their relevance to the discussion.

[Godular]

Oh no, I'm eminently aware of the point. By 'you got lucky' I mean, you happened to be the first spermatozoa to meet that ovum after the people who would come to be your parents engaged in a process refined over millions of years, on a planet refined over billions of years to support your existence (maybe not perfectly, but enough so in the cosmic scheme of things), in a universe based on incredibly simple rules that come together to produce a phenomenally complex universe that we are but an infinitesimal component of.

Me? I want me some of that. Know how I would least take advantage of a big honking planet with a big honking plethora of experiences to experience? By getting myself thrown in jail and spending the remainder of my life staring at concrete walls. It is in a person's self-interest to be a team player, and one can find greater fulfillment in life by interacting with others and working for mutual benefit than one would find while only operating in accordance with personal self-interest. A person might not last long, but communities can change greatly, and it is a disservice to assume that the things that you do will be forgotten so easily.

Your actions cause impressions upon other people, and those impressions influence how those other people behave to still more people. Maybe you wouldn't care if those impressions are positive or negative, so long as you get yours. That is your choice, and your burden. Me, I choose to build foundations of knowledge that those who follow me can act upon. That is the purpose I have taken upon myself.

Is there an 'ultimate purpose' to life? Aside from 'Keep the ball rolling as long as you can', probably not. Instead of lamenting the lack of purpose... make your own.

I don't like the numbers game. Simply saying, "Well, you're unique because the stars aligned on the day you were conceived and then nine months later you were born on the night of a blue moon" does not make it so.

Except for the fact that it IS so. You are choosing the glass half-empty approach. I'm choosing the 'get a smaller glass' approach.

Everybody else is special too- some more special than others, whether that be exceptional or aberrant- but in the end, without an afterlife, it all becomes moot. Doesn't matter- we all end up dead.

Your error here is in thinking that the situation is otherwise in the event an afterlife should happen to exist. Or that the afterlife will be exactly the thing that you expect and prepare for. For all we know, the afterlife could just be... hup you got born again, damn but this game has a long tutorial stage. The fact of the matter is that your life is what you make of it. If you choose to believe that living a 'virtuous' life is a good life based on >insert reason here<, gg brah more power to ya. If you choose to be an asshole and spend the remainder of your life either having struck it rich and learning the true meaning of the phrase 'money can't buy happiness' or sitting in a jail cell staring at three concrete walls and one set of bars and some big guy named Ben, that's your risk to take.

But either way, you are the arbiter of your own destiny.

That is the short view. Communities generally don't last longer than 40 or 50 years- the most exceptional ones have never lasted longer than a millenium, and we're talking about the Holy Roman Empire at that point. In the end, time levels any and all marks you attempt to make on history- unless you're Jesus. He's sort of the exception to the rule, which is a little odd. At least, right now, anyway. Who knows if that'll continue. But I digress.

On the small scale, a community will not remember you after you're gone for good. Give it a few years- maybe ten, twenty- and then if you were to come back you'd find that you'd been forgotten. That's how life works- ever chugging forward, writing the future over the memories of the past.

The argument that people matter also doesn't hold water. Believe it or not, they're going to be dead too. That happens enough times and any impact that you goes up in smoke, eventually. Therefore, your contributions, in the long run, do. Not. Matter. At least, not without an afterlife or something along those lines that makes it worth remembering.

But the influences live on, and they DO matter. The things learned before build the foundation of what rises after. Oh sure if you want to get into it, chances are we'll be stuck in this solar system until the sun goes Red Giant and obliterates all semblance of human existence, but then that's getting worked up over nothing. Some guy named Tolkien wrote a few books. We seem to remember him pretty well. Some guy named Confucius tried his hand at self-help. We remember that guy pretty well. Some woman named Cleopatra did something involving fancy hair.

Nobody knows who the fuck came up with Egyptian culture, or who built the first boat, or who spat on a pile of leaf mulch and realized it could be flattened and written on. Those folks remain unnamed, but what they did... THAT shit lives on.

Just because that doesn't mesh with your small-minded idea of what it is to be remembered does not mean that it automatically does not matter.