Transgendered Woman Sweeps Cisgendered Competitors in Sports

[Liriena]

This was incredibly unfair to the other competitors in the race. Feelings aside, he was a male, thus possessing a massive advantage over his female competitors.

Which is why she didn't win. Because of her massive advantage.

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I don't see how feminists and LGBT rights advocates who believe we are all "equal" are able to reconcile the fact that the genders have differences physically, mentally, and emotionally. This only further proves that.

It's easy when we have a more advanced understanding of equality than "BUT DIFFERENCES!"

Annorax seems to be under the impression that, when we advocate for equality, we are advocating for erasing the differences between people's identities rather than... you know... the unfair differences in their circumstances.

[Noraika]

In my humble opinion, the answer's no. It seems unfair to give transgendered woman specifically, physical advantages against their competitors. It is a biological fact of life that men have larger amounts of muscle mass, and when committed to the exact same sport, event, or workout as a woman, will perform better in it. That's why we have divided up men's and women's in the first place. Having a man, presently or former, participate in a sporting event filled with women is unfair to the other competitors and potentially dangerous, in the case of something like boxing or UFC.

Well that depends on if this transgender woman was on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) or not. Among one of the many effects of Male-to-Female (MtF) HRT is that it reduces the extra muscle mass present in the male body, and even over time reduces bone density, to match that of a cisgender woman's. If she was on hormones then it is pretty much a biological fact that her physical advantage is pretty much gone.

[Annorax]

Which is why she didn't win. Because of her massive advantage.

---

It's easy when we have a more advanced understanding of equality than "BUT DIFFERENCES!"

Annorax seems to be under the impression that, when we advocate for equality, we are advocating for erasing the differences between people's identities rather than... you know... the unfair differences in their circumstances.

It was unfair that the "cisgendered" whatever pronoun you use was born male? If this person feels they are female they have the right to be one yes? So by that logic they have the right to compete in women's sports.

[Rhodevus]

In my humble opinion, the answer's no. It seems unfair to give transgendered woman specifically, physical advantages against their competitors. It is a biological fact of life that men have larger amounts of muscle mass, and when committed to the exact same sport, event, or workout as a woman, will perform better in it. That's why we have divided up men's and women's in the first place. Having a man, presently or former, participate in a sporting event filled with women is unfair to the other competitors and potentially dangerous, in the case of something like boxing or UFC.

Well that depends on if this transgender woman was on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) or not. Among one of the many effects of Male-to-Female (MtF) HRT is that it reduces the extra muscle mass present in the male body, and even over time reduces bone density, to match that of a cisgender woman's. If she was on hormones then it is pretty much a biological fact that her biological advantage is pretty much gone.

a question about the flip side of that: if a female to male transgender had hormone replacement therapy, would they end up with extra muscle mass and all that stuff? Or does it just grow facial hair...

[Liriena]

I am an honest believer that there are only two genders. He was born as a male, and thus is a male.

Misgendering is bad, mmkay?

That asides... there aren't only two genders. This is something that can be observed. Which means your belief is not "honest" so much as it is... well... you know...

Furthermore, the assertion that "there are only two genders" doesn't really dispute the legitimacy of trans people's genders. Your first sentence doesn't really substantiate the conclusion in the second, so you probably should have polished the writing to make your argument a bit more clear. Trans women are women, and trans men are men, so we're still speaking within the boundaries of the gender binary you have established. Your actual argument seems to be, not that there are only two genders, but rather that one cannot be any gender other than the one they were assigned at birth... which is false.

[Ifreann]

Of course it's not, because she's really a man and men are always better at sports than women. Right?

No, not always. There are women, especially at the high school level that are better than the boys. But that is small minority. If for example holly mangold (she has a wiki page) came at me in a high school football game (she did play high school football). I would be a .... well. Pancake. But she couldn't compete at a professional level with the men.

Edit: and you have turned it around. This issue isn't is it fair for women to try and compete with men. (and I would say the answer is yes).
But is it fair for men to compete with women. (and I would say no).

The issue is that some people, yourself included apparently, won't accept that trans women are women and trans men are men. The issue is that some people, again apparently including you, cannot get over gender stereotypes and want to protect the poor little women from losing to this big mean "man".

[Rhodevus]

Annorax seems to be under the impression that, when we advocate for equality, we are advocating for erasing the differences between people's identities rather than... you know... the unfair differences in their circumstances.

It was unfair that the "cisgendered" whatever pronoun you use was born male? If this person feels they are female they have the right to be one yes? So by that logic they have the right to compete in women's sports.

But they still have the unfair advantage of having biologically male advantages, such as extra muscle mass. This all comes down to whether sports are based on biological gender or preferenced gender. If it is preferenced gender, then sports should be skill based instead of divided by men and women (non-biologically speaking).

[Noraika]

Well that depends on if this transgender woman was on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) or not. Among one of the many effects of Male-to-Female (MtF) HRT is that it reduces the extra muscle mass present in the male body, and even over time reduces bone density, to match that of a cisgender woman's. If she was on hormones then it is pretty much a biological fact that her biological advantage is pretty much gone.

a question about the flip side of that: if a female to male transgender had hormone replacement therapy, would they end up with extra muscle mass and all that stuff? Or does it just grow facial hair...

As far as I'm aware they have the reverse effect, and their muscle mass will increase to that of a typical male pattern and density. Other than physical sex organ, pretty much everything about what makes each sex "look" like that sex is based on the dominant hormone, so changing the dominant hormone causes the opposite physical developments to occur.
Though I'm no expert.

[Impireacht]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps". Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

[Rhodevus]

a question about the flip side of that: if a female to male transgender had hormone replacement therapy, would they end up with extra muscle mass and all that stuff? Or does it just grow facial hair...

As far as I'm aware they have the reverse effect, and their muscle mass will increase to that of a typical male pattern and density. Other than physical sex organ, pretty much everything about what makes each sex "look" like that sex is based on the dominant hormone, so changing the dominant hormone causes the opposite physical developments to occur.
Though I'm no expert.

that's very interesting! i did not know that. thanks!

[Liriena]

Annorax seems to be under the impression that, when we advocate for equality, we are advocating for erasing the differences between people's identities rather than... you know... the unfair differences in their circumstances.

It was unfair that the "cisgendered" whatever pronoun you use was born male?

Cisgender means "not transgender". It's not a pronoun.

If you can't be bothered to learn the bare basics of gender and trans issues, how do you expect us to take any of your assertions on the matter with a modicum of seriousness?

If this person feels they are female they have the right to be one yes? So by that logic they have the right to compete in women's sports.

If a person identifies as a woman, lives as a woman, and spends years going through the process of having a body that reflects her gender, why should they be excluded from activities that, as society has dictated, are for women only?

[Ifreann]

In my humble opinion, the answer's no. It seems unfair to give transgendered woman specifically, physical advantages against their competitors. It is a biological fact of life that men have larger amounts of muscle mass, and when committed to the exact same sport, event, or workout as a woman, will perform better in it. That's why we have divided up men's and women's in the first place. Having a man, presently or former, participate in a sporting event filled with women is unfair to the other competitors and potentially dangerous, in the case of something like boxing or UFC.

Well that depends on if this transgender woman was on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) or not. Among one of the many effects of Male-to-Female (MtF) HRT is that it reduces the extra muscle mass present in the male body, and even over time reduces bone density, to match that of a cisgender woman's. If she was on hormones then it is pretty much a biological fact that her physical advantage is pretty much gone.

She is on hormones, and testosterone blockers. But somehow she still has a huge manvantage because man!

[Noraika]

As far as I'm aware they have the reverse effect, and their muscle mass will increase to that of a typical male pattern and density. Other than physical sex organ, pretty much everything about what makes each sex "look" like that sex is based on the dominant hormone, so changing the dominant hormone causes the opposite physical developments to occur.
Though I'm no expert.

that's very interesting! i did not know that. thanks!

No problem. Glad to be of assistance!

[Rhodevus]

Well that depends on if this transgender woman was on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) or not. Among one of the many effects of Male-to-Female (MtF) HRT is that it reduces the extra muscle mass present in the male body, and even over time reduces bone density, to match that of a cisgender woman's. If she was on hormones then it is pretty much a biological fact that her physical advantage is pretty much gone.

She is on hormones, and testosterone blockers. But somehow she still has a huge manvantage because man!

1. if she is on hormones and testosterone blockers, then this is all moot and she should most definitely be allowed to compete.
2. By saying things like manvantage really takes away from your argument

[Ifreann]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps". Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

Are your feelings hurt? Would you like us to apologise for having opinions that distress you?

[Annorax]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps". Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

You know I've wondered that myself. What pronoun I am supposed to use? If you cannot use him or her because its insulting I feel like "it" is even more so, dehumanizing really. But yet I'm supposed to know somehow and get all sorts of loony-left railed if I use the wrong one. If you look like a dude I'm using a male pronoun and vice-versa. If they don't like that they can pound sand because I refuse to walk on egg shells for .0001% of the population this effects.

[Liriena]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps".

Not really. Save for a few exceptions, most people despise being referred to as "it", because "it" has traditionally been used to refer to non-human animals and inanimate objects. If you are arguing for a gender-neutral pronoun, you already have a very appropriate one, and it's "they".

Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

I am well aware that not everyone shares my views, and I am well aware that those who disagree with me have the right to express their opinion, but I personally consider them to be disqualified in terms of not understanding the topic well enough, as far as I am concerned, and thus not deserving to have their opinion on the matter treated as legitimate and worthy of serious consideration.

Also, I find it adorable that you think anything that has been said in this thread counts as "far-left". Someone has never heard of early 20th century anarchism, methinks.

[Rhodevus]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps". Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

You know I've wondered that myself. What pronoun I am supposed to use? If you cannot use him or her because its insulting I feel like "it" is even more so, dehumanizing really. But yet I'm supposed to know somehow and get all sorts of loony-left railed if I use the wrong one. If you look like a dude I'm using a male pronoun and vice-versa. If they don't like that they can pound sand because I refuse to walk on egg shells for .0001% of the population this effects.

what I usually do is use the pronoun that I think works, and then if they correct me, use that different pronoun. If they yell at you, then they weren't really worth getting to know in the first place

[Ifreann]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps". Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

You know I've wondered that myself. What pronoun I am supposed to use? If you cannot use him or her because its insulting I feel like "it" is even more so, dehumanizing really. But yet I'm supposed to know somehow and get all sorts of loony-left railed if I use the wrong one. If you look like a dude I'm using a male pronoun and vice-versa. If they don't like that they can pound sand because I refuse to walk on egg shells for .0001% of the population this effects.

I'm sure it's very hard for you to consider other people's wishes and feelings, and that's a shame. Personally I don't see where the difficulty lies.

[Annorax]

It was unfair that the "cisgendered" whatever pronoun you use was born male?

Cisgender means "not transgender". It's not a pronoun.

If you can't be bothered to learn the bare basics of gender and trans issues, how do you expect us to take any of your assertions on the matter with a modicum of seriousness?

If this person feels they are female they have the right to be one yes? So by that logic they have the right to compete in women's sports.

If a person identifies as a woman, lives as a woman, and spends years going through the process of having a body that reflects her gender, why should they be excluded from activities that, as society has dictated, are for women only?

I never said they should get excluded but then you have what the OP posted. You don't see cisgendered transgendred or whatever men winning a bunch of male only sports. I could be wrong about that though because I don't follow trans sport professionals in general.

[Salus Maior]

Well, if the person wasn't doing hormone treatments (which is something I'm not too knowledgeable about honestly) or anything like that, then said person was physically male. And therefore is subject to rules regarding the physical differences between men and women in competitive sports.

So, basically, it was unfair. And perhaps the way we organize said sports should be looked over considering the changes in our society.

[Noraika]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps". Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

You know I've wondered that myself. What pronoun I am supposed to use? If you cannot use him or her because its insulting I feel like "it" is even more so, dehumanizing really. But yet I'm supposed to know somehow and get all sorts of loony-left railed if I use the wrong one. If you look like a dude I'm using a male pronoun and vice-versa. If they don't like that they can pound sand because I refuse to walk on egg shells for .0001% of the population this effects.

Usually the three main pronoun groupings are he/him, she/her, they/them. They can all be used, but being respectful of people's preference to be referred to as either of these is a pretty cool thing too! If you're not sure than the most surefire way to find out is to ask!

0.5%+ (since this is thought to be underreported) of the population. Sorry, but I'm just fulfilling my duties as Queen of Nitpicks

[Annorax]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps".

Not really. Save for a few exceptions, most people despise being referred to as "it", because "it" has traditionally been used to refer to non-human animals and inanimate objects. If you are arguing for a gender-neutral pronoun, you already have a very appropriate one, and it's "they".

Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

I am well aware that not everyone shares my views, and I am well aware that those who disagree with me have the right to express their opinion, but I personally consider them to be disqualified in terms of not understanding the topic well enough, as far as I am concerned, and thus not deserving to have their opinion on the matter treated as legitimate and worthy of serious consideration.

Also, I find it adorable that you think anything that has been said in this thread counts as "far-left". Someone has never heard of early 20th century anarchism, methinks.

"They" is grammatically incorrect as a singular gender-neutral pronoun in English. Maybe we should bring back "thou" instead?

[Liriena]

Some of these living embodiments of far-leftism are pretty funny. I liked the one that used "conservative" as an insult. To the "misgender" post above me, the obvious solution is to start calling all people "it" to avoid "gender mishaps". Get over yourself, not everyone shares your shiny-happy political views, he is allowed to express his opinion and is not "disqualified" from anything.

You know I've wondered that myself. What pronoun I am supposed to use?

Whichever the person you are speaking to, or about, feels most comfortable with... unless, of course, you are a grossly impolite butthole. If you are unsure as to which pronouns the person in question prefers, and have no way of knowing their gender in any other way, I recommend using "they", which counts as a gender-neutral singular pronoun.

"It" is, indeed, dehumanizing, but you may one day encounter a person who likes that pronouns as well.

I chose to leave the rest of your post untouched. I will only comment that I find your self-victimizing over the issue of pronouns absolutely adorable.

[Ifreann]

Well, if the person wasn't doing hormone treatments (which is something I'm not too knowledgeable about honestly) or anything like that, then said person was physically male. And therefore is subject to rules regarding the physical differences between men and women in competitive sports.

So, basically, it was unfair. And perhaps the way we organize said sports should be looked over considering the changes in our society.

She is on hormones, and testosterone blockers.