Transgendered Woman Sweeps Cisgendered Competitors in Sports

[Alvecia]

14-15 year old males aren't. A 14-15 year old male did compared to ciswomen. That's entirely different.

If I'm reading the NHS site correctly, a kid can start hormones as soon as they reach puberty, so it's not too late, in fact, it's right on time.

I gave you 2 examples so it is males, I could give even more. Most of the olympic athletes were outstading from early on.

Yes but you're comparing males to females, when you should be comparing males to transmales.
Your comparisons are useless.

It's too late because the change doesn't happen in 1 day but in years.

It's not too late, as I said, it's exactly on time.
The change happens as soon as the drugs start. The drugs simply stop the female hormones and replace them with male ones.
That way instead of developing like a female, they develop like a male.

And as I said only adults should actually be able to do such things.

You're free to believe so, but that doesn't change the fact that
A) the medical community disagrees
B) We aren't talking about what should be we're talking about what could be

[Alvecia]

Cause you keep asking that I'll answer. No, because we wouldn't need to.
I also feel like we're answering different questions.
Can a transmale compete, proffesionally, alongside cismales?
I say yes they can and I say they might be able to do a good job of it.
If they:
A) start relatively young. Doesn't have to be an infant. Much of a child's muscle mass is built during their teen years. I wouldn't think it out of the ordinary for a teenager to be on Hormone therapy, but then I'm not up to date on the regulations concerning such.
B) Are at the far end of the bell cruve physiologically
C) Train really fucking hard.

Plus we can't ignore the fact that hormone therapy, at any age, will reduce muscle mass in women (MtF) and increase it in men (FtM). This is especially the case if Hormone Therapy is started during or just before puberty, because this increases the treatment's effectiveness.

As for giving hormones to infants. Aside from the fact that such would likely be a violation of medical ethics, because the infant cannot give informed consent, it is also pretty pointless. The developments which are caused by hormones occur during puberty, so it would be pointless to give an infant hormones. The ideal would to be to put the child on puberty blockers if they show diagnosiable signs of Gender Dysphoria, and then if they choose to then go on to starting Hormone Replacement Therapy. The result is a man or woman who never went through the puberty of their biological sex, and instead will go through the puberty of their gender.

They'd essentially be physically the same as other individuals of their gender, so I don't think its anything we should be particularly concerned about.

All good points.

[Ualla and St Maurice]

Success in high school sports can lead to college scholarships.

This reminds me of a case in Africa where a woman had to be tested to prove she wasn't a man.

Potentially, this is the beginning of the end of sex based segregation.

Also, sports parents are crazy, do you think they would force their kids to transition in order to win? (this question isn't intended to be an argument banning transgender people, because it would be weak)

[Noraika]

The reason why asked this question is because during teenage years it is already too late as I tried to point out. And I think that sex change is something that only adults should be able to do.
But the main point is that there will probably be a scenario when women competitions are dominated by transgenders (who were born as male). If 14-15 year old men are able to beat best women in the world then this should prove my point even more.

That actually have a relatively easy solution, thanfully.

• Child goes on puberty blockers which block the onset of the changes from puberty, if they decide not to proceed further or not transition then they can stop taking them and puberty will happen normally.
• Child goes on Hormone Replacement Therapy and goes through the puberty of their gender identity, this is also pretty much reversible by just, not taking more hormones.
• Adult has surgery, which is the only part of this which is definitely permanent.

Nitpicks (as Queen of Nitpicks its my duty to correct them).

1. "...dominated by transgenders..." Grammatically speaking, 'transgender' is not a noun, it is an adjective. The correct way of saying this would be 'transgender people', or in this case 'transgender women', since MtF specifically is being discussed.
2. We've already established that the physical advantages of additional muscle comes from the hormones present in young boys. They aren't as ingrained as you think. The main reason women "look" like women and men "look" like men, is due to the dominant hormone present. You switch the dominant hormone, as Hormone Replacement Therapy does, and it causes the opposite set of characteristics to replace the current.
   
   1. This would include a loss of extra male muscle, and difficulty gaining muscle, in line with most women, in transgender women, and a gain of extra muscle mass, and easier ability in gaining muscle, in line with most men, in transgender men, if I recall correctly.

Hope that clears this up a bit.

[Ualla and St Maurice]

Correct me if I am wrong, but hormone therapy is basically steroids. If a male athlete took the same chemicals it would be illegal. There already exists the concept of a doctor's note exception, but I imagine this will be very controversial. It is probably a very narrow loop hole, and there are probably ways to make sure not too many people are going to take advantage of it. Still, it raises questions. These questions might be depended on how well transgender athletes compete. If the Men's Olympic medals are dominated by people born female using testosterone and the Women's events are likewise dominated by athletes born male, I find it hard to believe anybody will be completely happy with that.

[Noraika]

Correct me if I am wrong, but hormone therapy is basically steroids. If a male athlete took the same chemicals it would be illegal. There already exists the concept of a doctor's note exception, but I imagine this will be very controversial. It is probably a very narrow loop hole, and there are probably ways to make sure not too many people are going to take advantage of it. Still, it raises questions. These questions might be depended on how well transgender athletes compete. If the Men's Olympic medals are dominated by people born female using testosterone and the Women's events are likewise dominated by athletes born male, I find it hard to believe anybody will be completely happy with that.

That depends on the 'type' of Hormone therapy. In this case, its male-to-female, which is pretty much literally the opposite of a steroid. In the case of female-to-male, it will not boost their muscle mass, or ability to build muscle, past that of other men.

Testosterone, if I recall correctly, is already used in some groups, or rather has been used. I'll admit that I'm not entirely familiar with this topic, but I recall hearing about with athletes caught doing it. That, to me, is the bigger concern than the idea that someone would pretend to be transgender to get treatment, which is a long, inconvenient, and complicated process, with multiple checks and rechecks, rather than simply buying the testosterone itself, as is already done.

A simply blood test could get past that, in the case of sports, since an increase in testosterone that goes well beyond female levels, and which is at a level to encourage male-style developments, would be very easily detectable.

Plus any attempt to use an official excuse, such as Hormone Replacement Therapy, would not bring any benefit. Female-to-male individuals would be placed with men, and would therefore be back on a level playing field, and male-to-female individuals would be placed with women, and would be at the same level as well. Just my thoughts on that.

[The Serbian Empire]

Correct me if I am wrong, but hormone therapy is basically steroids. If a male athlete took the same chemicals it would be illegal. There already exists the concept of a doctor's note exception, but I imagine this will be very controversial. It is probably a very narrow loop hole, and there are probably ways to make sure not too many people are going to take advantage of it. Still, it raises questions. These questions might be depended on how well transgender athletes compete. If the Men's Olympic medals are dominated by people born female using testosterone and the Women's events are likewise dominated by athletes born male, I find it hard to believe anybody will be completely happy with that.

Estrogen and anti-androgens are quite the opposite of a PED. The only PED is testosterone, and the rate of transgender individuals is so low that dominance would unlikely. There is a known window with HRT that produces a gray area where a transgender woman will look like a woman enough that the public will call her "miss or ma'am" but still potentially have the extra muscle mass. However, that is before the two year mark of proper HRT levels.

[Ifreann]

Correct me if I am wrong, but hormone therapy is basically steroids. If a male athlete took the same chemicals it would be illegal. There already exists the concept of a doctor's note exception, but I imagine this will be very controversial. It is probably a very narrow loop hole, and there are probably ways to make sure not too many people are going to take advantage of it. Still, it raises questions. These questions might be depended on how well transgender athletes compete. If the Men's Olympic medals are dominated by people born female using testosterone and the Women's events are likewise dominated by athletes born male, I find it hard to believe anybody will be completely happy with that.

Estrogen and anti-androgens are quite the opposite of a PED. The only PED is testosterone, and the rate of transgender individuals is so low that dominance would unlikely. There is a known window with HRT that produces a gray area where a transgender woman will look like a woman enough that the public will call her "miss or ma'am" but still potentially have the extra muscle mass. However, that is before the two year mark of proper HRT levels.

But will oestrogen remove the will of the warrior? For if not, the Olympics are already over, and Ice Wangyot has already won every medal.

[Zeinbrad]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/sp ... inish.html

Should this lady be banned from running do her illness making her unable to feel pain during long-distance running?

[Ifreann]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/sports/for-runner-with-ms-no-pain-while-racing-no-feeling-at-the-finish.html

Should this lady be banned from running do her illness making her unable to feel pain during long-distance running?

Fascinating case. I wonder if it will be considered that it's perfectly fair for her to compete, because she's a cis girl racing against other cis girls, or if it will be considered unfair, because she has a biological capacity to do something no competitor of hers can.

[Des-Bal]

Fascinating case. I wonder if it will be considered that it's perfectly fair for her to compete, because she's a cis girl racing against other cis girls, or if it will be considered unfair, because she has a biological capacity to do something no competitor of hers can.

That would be fair if we made a significant point of having separate categories of sports based on whether or not you had that illness. We separate men's and women's sports, if it's for biological reasons then why should which category a person falls into be dictated by gender rather than biological sex?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Correct me if I am wrong, but hormone therapy is basically steroids. If a male athlete took the same chemicals it would be illegal. There already exists the concept of a doctor's note exception, but I imagine this will be very controversial. It is probably a very narrow loop hole, and there are probably ways to make sure not too many people are going to take advantage of it. Still, it raises questions. These questions might be depended on how well transgender athletes compete. If the Men's Olympic medals are dominated by people born female using testosterone and the Women's events are likewise dominated by athletes born male, I find it hard to believe anybody will be completely happy with that.

That heavily depends on the chemical. It also depends on the type of steroid.

[Chessmistress]

Those girls faced unfair competition, and I think that's a breaching of women's rights though, really, that's just a minor issue, and I can understand that banning the winner from participating to such competition could have been very hurting due the personal situation of such person. It's a complex issue.

English is not my native language, but I think there's an error in the title: "cisgendered" - declining the word to the past presuppones a transition from another state, a transition happened in the past, but in the case of "cisgender" that isn't the case, so it's "cisgender" not "cisgendered".

[Ifreann]

Those girls faced unfair competition, and I think that's a breaching of women's rights though, really, that's just a minor issue, and I can understand that banning the winner from participating to such competition could have been very hurting due the personal situation of such person. It's a complex issue.

She didn't win. She came third in one race and fifth in another.

[MERIZoC]

....so what? Should we also ban cis women who are born with genes that give them denser muscle tissue?

[Noraika]

Those girls faced unfair competition, and I think that's a breaching of women's rights though, really, that's just a minor issue, and I can understand that banning the winner from participating to such competition could have been very hurting due the personal situation of such person. It's a complex issue.

Assuming this girl had been on hormones, as has been established previously, and she's been so since early puberty, or even later, there would be no unfair circumstances, since her muscle mass, and skeletal developments (at this age), would be the same as the other women.

In all honesty, I feel sorry for the girl. She's being blamed, and denied her own ability, for something which just isn't true and is based off ignorance or misunderstanding of the facts. All for coming in 5th place.

[Scarlet Tides]

....so what? Should we also ban cis women who are born with genes that give them denser muscle tissue?

That's probably a bit too nuanced for people who think every cis woman has the exact same chemical make-up in their body.

[MERIZoC]

....so what? Should we also ban cis women who are born with genes that give them denser muscle tissue?

That's probably a bit too nuanced for people who think every cis woman has the exact same chemical make-up in their body.

Like shit, do we ban everyone who has any sort of genetic advantage from sports? Will we have an even playing field then? Fuck, I'm all for commie talk, but when it comes to sports that's pretty ridiculous.

[Scarlet Tides]

That's probably a bit too nuanced for people who think every cis woman has the exact same chemical make-up in their body.

Like shit, do we ban everyone who has any sort of genetic advantage from sports? Will we have an even playing field then? Fuck, I'm all for commie talk, but when it comes to sports that's pretty ridiculous.

I dunno lets ask these people what the threshold is for acceptable testosterone production for women. I'll bet they won't even know or can't agree.

[Ifreann]

....so what? Should we also ban cis women who are born with genes that give them denser muscle tissue?

Maybe we should establish an office of Handicapper General, whose duties shall be to ensure that all athletes have the exact same physical capabilities.

[Zeinbrad]

....so what? Should we also ban cis women who are born with genes that give them denser muscle tissue?

Maybe we should establish an office of Handicapper General, whose duties shall be to ensure that all athletes have the exact same physical capabilities.

Clones.

[Ifreann]

Maybe we should establish an office of Handicapper General, whose duties shall be to ensure that all athletes have the exact same physical capabilities.

Clones.

But of who?

[Zeinbrad]

Clones.

But of who?

True females and males (tm)

[Ifreann]

But of who?

True females and males (tm)

I have a plan. We get a DNA sample from every cis man and woman on Earth. We put them in two big blenders, and we create the Truest Man and Woman. Then we'll have them compete against each other in every sport, with additional clones for team sports. We'll finally make sports fair and solve the battle of the sexes, thus ushering in world peace.

[King Nephmir II]

Wait wait wait... so separating restrooms as male/female is considered by many to be discrimination, but separating sports in the same way isn't...?

I will never understand this new form of logic.