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Hirota
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Postby Hirota » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:10 am

Gauthier wrote:You can start your own MRA forum...
I'm not an MRA. Thats a Strawman. Big shock coming from you.

...if you want minimum posting requirements. Otherwise this is a public forum as long as one obeys its rules. Cheers!
You misunderstand (probably deliberately, which suggests yet another Strawman, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt). I'm not seeking minimum standards, nor am I advocating any exclusion based on posting standards. I'm observing the hypocrisy in you getting pissy over a glib posting of a meme, where your entire modus operandi is based upon employing strawmen, and glib shitposting.

I can raise my game above that, I can post arguments with actual sources and evidence. You are incapable of doing so, based upon your long held MO.

Frenline Delpha wrote:It was a meme. Not much room for nuance. Are you the kind of person who asks for someone to write twenty paragraphs in their cereal box?
As we've established, Gauther is at best a hypocrite who expects explicit lengthy responses, but is incapable of providing nuanced detailed responses of his own.

Heidisteinian Fempire wrote:I'm trying to say Gamergate is a extension of the alt-right, a vessel where /pol/ recruits others.

That claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - and so far you've failed to provide evidence.
It's true that gamergate has individuals that sit in the right and/or alt-right, and you could make the case that certain high publicity individuals who advocate in favour of Gamergate are Right Wing, but Gamergate as a whole is largely left-leaning. Brad Glasgow is a journalist who is writing a book on Gamergate, which has included looking into the demographics of verified Gamergate members. He has published some results already. This largely correlates with the results linked to by Ostro earlier.

Heidisteinian Fempire wrote:The only reason I care, and it's a pretty important reason to me (you guys can not care), is that it makes more kids, vulnerable adults and kids, turn to a pretty scary flavor of right wing politics. It's a gateway. Gamergateway.
You're assuming most gamergaters are naive individuals incapable of critical thinking. You are flat out wrong. "Listen and believe" is the mantra Gamergate opposes - it's the mantra of peons in the regressive left. "Trust but Verify" is the mantra Gamergate aspires to follow - Gamergaters question the narrative peddled in the press.
And you know what, instead of trying to employ cheap scare tactics, demonstrate where and how the alt-right is wrong. Don't just pretend it's an ideological boogeyman, challenge it's principles where they fail, provide evidence why they fail. Engage on a platform of rational debate and critical analysis rather than claiming it's a "pretty scary flavor of right wing politics" with no supporting rationale. It's not difficult.

Atlanticatia wrote:It's because it's fun to mock MRAs and their talking points.
The stupidity of hypocritical double standards that is fundamentally at the core of the idiocy of regressive left doublethink is evident here. Mock SJW's and suddenly you're a misogynist hating all women on the planet. Mock anyone else and it's just harmless fun! :roll:

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:You're forgetting that insulting A woman = Insulting Women, that's been the standard since Gamergate.
At least that's what Gauthier believes, yet it's not the same when Gauthier does it because Gauthier only does it to 'bad people'.
It's a standard strategy for attempting to silence disagreement. In the same way being anti-feminist means you are supposedly a misogynist (which anyone with half a brain knows is untrue), we now see being opposed to the regressive left means you are supposedly a misogynist. Of course it utterly fails, because their accusation doesn't stand rational scrutiny. Challenge their accusation, and it falls to pieces, like most of their daydream narratives.

Its actually very sexist of the regressive mob to try and cram all women into the same demographic. Women are being denied freedom of agency to choose for themselves if they do or do not find themselves in agreement with the regressive left. I'm not the one employing harmful stereotypes of all women - they are.
Last edited by Hirota on Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:01 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Kxcd
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Postby Kxcd » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:15 am

they're mutually exclusive?
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:53 am

Kxcd wrote:they're mutually exclusive?

Not necessarily if, like me, you would like to tackle both concepts outside of the ugly, clunky clustercuss that has become political discourse in the past couple of years.
Last edited by Liriena on Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thurses
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Postby Thurses » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:05 am

Neither.
You're all horrible.

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Minzerland
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Postby Minzerland » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:34 am

Atlanticatia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:




It's great when you can capture these moments. Italicized by me.


It's because it's fun to mock MRAs and their talking points.


Oh? Why? Their talking points are usually much better than an SJWs.
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Grinstead
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Postby Grinstead » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:15 am

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I know Breitbart isn't quite a credible source but, are you fucking serious?
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:05 am

Frenline Delpha wrote:
Gauthier wrote:


Absolutely nothing wrong with gratuitously attributing obesity and unfemininity to something you don't like at all!

It was a meme. Not much room for nuance. Are you the kind of person who asks for someone to write twenty paragraphs in their cereal box?

No, but it does show that any pretense of perceived superiority you guys have over them is nonexistent.

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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:07 am

Minzerland wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:
It's because it's fun to mock MRAs and their talking points.


Oh? Why? Their talking points are usually much better than an SJWs.

No they're not. As much as I sound like an edgy fuck, I despise both sides. I recognize there are some positive arguments that either ideology could put forward, but usually that's not the case.

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Minzerland
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Postby Minzerland » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:24 am

Kelinfort wrote:
Minzerland wrote:
Oh? Why? Their talking points are usually much better than an SJWs.

No they're not. As much as I sound like an edgy fuck, I despise both sides. I recognize there are some positive arguments that either ideology could put forward, but usually that's not the case.


I'm no fan of either, but, it must be said, I despise SJWs more so. Their arguments, in my experience, aren't that good, like the 'Rape Culture Theory' or, the 'Wage Gap' (Women earn 79 cents to a mans dollar etc), bullshit. Unlike MRA's whom have better arguments, especially in family court matters, such as custody. Although, I do despise MGTOW, which came from thr Men's rights movement.
Last edited by Minzerland on Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:09 am

Kxcd wrote:they're mutually exclusive?

Nope. Even if you went full on Singapore, and banned anything that might cause offence to anyone, it would not be a violation of the typically accepted definition of freedom of speech. In addition, most areas of Social Justice don't concern speech.

"Westley, what about the S.J.W.s?"
"Social Justice Warriors? I don't believe they exist."
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Frenline Delpha
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Postby Frenline Delpha » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:18 am

Noraika wrote:
Kxcd wrote:they're mutually exclusive?

Nope. Even if you went full on Singapore, and banned anything that might cause offence to anyone, it would not be a violation of the typically accepted definition of freedom of speech. In addition, most areas of Social Justice don't concern speech.

"Westley, what about the S.J.W.s?"
"Social Justice Warriors? I don't believe they exist."

I can quote people too. It doesn't prove anything.

And how do you reach the first conclusion.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:21 am

Noraika wrote:
Kxcd wrote:they're mutually exclusive?

Nope. Even if you went full on Singapore, and banned anything that might cause offence to anyone, it would not be a violation of the typically accepted definition of freedom of speech. In addition, most areas of Social Justice don't concern speech.

"Westley, what about the S.J.W.s?"
"Social Justice Warriors? I don't believe they exist."


I don't think you have a good handle on either topic. They are not aligned to each other.

One is about freedom of expression, the other is about equality. Unequal speech, " women are the weaker sex " is a sterotypical and harmful to women as it denigrates their abilities. Soical justice would supress such speech as harmful. Social justice is about equality of outcome, which has nothing to do with preserving free speech.
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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:25 am

Frenline Delpha wrote:
Noraika wrote:Nope. Even if you went full on Singapore, and banned anything that might cause offence to anyone, it would not be a violation of the typically accepted definition of freedom of speech. In addition, most areas of Social Justice don't concern speech.

"Westley, what about the S.J.W.s?"
"Social Justice Warriors? I don't believe they exist."

I can quote people too. It doesn't prove anything.

And how do you reach the first conclusion.

It is a joke. Personally speaking I find the SJWs are about as prevalent as members of the Communist Party USA in the U.S., which I ironically would be a member of if it ran political campaigns. :lol2:

As for the first point, I've gone over this before, but I'll repost my previous post to explain it. Hope that's fine with you if I'm feeling a bit lazy today, and don't want to type everything out again.
Noraika wrote:You seem to be getting free speech confused as an absolute. Few rights are absolutes, they can be restricted and limited without it being a violation of them. For example banning Hate Speech isn't 'contrary' to the freedom of speech itself, but it is an added aspect of the nature of free speech as a non-absolute right. Freedom of speech, using the most widely accepted definition in world I could find, as described in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is essentially as follows:
Merger of Article 19 and Article 29.2
"Everyone has the right to freedom and opinion and expression, and to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas through any media, but said rights are subject to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others, and of the morality, public order and general welfare in a democratic society."

So long as limitations of speech are passed in accordance with the above restrictions, it is not a limitation or violation of freedom of speech, in the most accepted definitions, since free speech allocates for those laws in its definition.
Last edited by Noraika on Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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New Edom
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Postby New Edom » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:42 am

Noraika wrote:
Frenline Delpha wrote:I can quote people too. It doesn't prove anything.

And how do you reach the first conclusion.

It is a joke. Personally speaking I find the SJWs are about as prevalent as members of the Communist Party USA in the U.S., which I ironically would be a member of if it ran political campaigns. :lol2:

As for the first point, I've gone over this before, but I'll repost my previous post to explain it. Hope that's fine with you if I'm feeling a bit lazy today, and don't want to type everything out again.
Noraika wrote:You seem to be getting free speech confused as an absolute. Few rights are absolutes, they can be restricted and limited without it being a violation of them. For example banning Hate Speech isn't 'contrary' to the freedom of speech itself, but it is an added aspect of the nature of free speech as a non-absolute right. Freedom of speech, using the most widely accepted definition in world I could find, as described in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is essentially as follows:
Merger of Article 19 and Article 29.2
"Everyone has the right to freedom and opinion and expression, and to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas through any media, but said rights are subject to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others, and of the morality, public order and general welfare in a democratic society."

So long as limitations of speech are passed in accordance with the above restrictions, it is not a limitation or violation of freedom of speech, in the most accepted definitions, since free speech allocates for those laws in its definition.


At one time or another this has been true for pepole who were anti-war, who were pro gay rights, pro women's rights. In each of these cases they had to win court battles and risk imprisonment to make their points. The same thing is going to happen when it comes to dealing with politically correct censorship. In fact it is happening. The government of Oklahoma is repeatedly bashing against the Supreme Court. The American Law Institute has rejected afirmative consent. Without common ground and agreed pon values that make compromise possible, two possibilities exist: apathy or conflict. It appears that it will be conflict.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:56 am

Vox (An SJW Rag) Editor advocates riots if Trump comes to your town.

https://twitter.com/emmettrensin/status ... 8855156742
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Zoice
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Postby Zoice » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:59 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Vox (An SJW Rag) Editor advocates riots if Trump comes to your town.

https://twitter.com/emmettrensin/status ... 8855156742

Why do you focus only on the horrors of SJW's being dumb and not the horrors of anti-SJW people like Trump being dumb? It's not as if the Social Justice side is the only one that does dumb shit.
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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:00 am

New Edom wrote:
Noraika wrote:It is a joke. Personally speaking I find the SJWs are about as prevalent as members of the Communist Party USA in the U.S., which I ironically would be a member of if it ran political campaigns. :lol2:

As for the first point, I've gone over this before, but I'll repost my previous post to explain it. Hope that's fine with you if I'm feeling a bit lazy today, and don't want to type everything out again.


At one time or another this has been true for pepole who were anti-war, who were pro gay rights, pro women's rights. In each of these cases they had to win court battles and risk imprisonment to make their points. The same thing is going to happen when it comes to dealing with politically correct censorship. In fact it is happening. The government of Oklahoma is repeatedly bashing against the Supreme Court. The American Law Institute has rejected afirmative consent. Without common ground and agreed pon values that make compromise possible, two possibilities exist: apathy or conflict. It appears that it will be conflict.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and without friction there is no traction to keep something moving. Conflict is a part of any social change, since actions to protect marginalized groups often means overcoming that friction to move forward towards a better society. Cooperation is most certainly desirable, and the current issues of the time particularly, in LGBT+ issues, has shown how radically society can turn public opinion, and how cooperating most people can be, but forces of reaction are inevitable.

Sometimes, overcoming that force comes through force, such as anti-discrimination laws, the outlawing of hate speech, and things of that nature, to overcome and ineffectualize current prejudices and fear tactics, which are present in soceity. The unforunate truth is such legislation is necessary solely because a group within society, at times large and at times small, propagates such a need for the. The degree of force is something which varies from issue to issue. Some things, like same-sex marriage, can be legalized through legal precident, and some require more extreme force, as it did with the ending of racial segregation, in which the military had to be called out to integrate the races, against public outcry, widespread fear, and threats of violence.

I have not seen anything that would show that public opinion in any way favours your cause, or sees political correctness as an issue, and this seems to be even less with younger generations, which are in fact largely supportive, nor do I personally find issue with political correctness whatsoever. but far be from me to keep anyone to try and advocate for their preferred society. If you want to see yourself as a Warrior against the Oppression of Political Correctness (or WOPC) you can do so. :)
Last edited by Noraika on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kelinfort
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Postby Kelinfort » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:02 am

Zoice wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Vox (An SJW Rag) Editor advocates riots if Trump comes to your town.

https://twitter.com/emmettrensin/status ... 8855156742

Why do you focus only on the horrors of SJW's being dumb and not the horrors of anti-SJW people like Trump being dumb? It's not as if the Social Justice side is the only one that does dumb shit.

He's a Trump supporter you know

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Zoice
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Postby Zoice » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:03 am

Kelinfort wrote:
Zoice wrote:Why do you focus only on the horrors of SJW's being dumb and not the horrors of anti-SJW people like Trump being dumb? It's not as if the Social Justice side is the only one that does dumb shit.

He's a Trump supporter you know

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Noraika
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Postby Noraika » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:05 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Vox (An SJW Rag) Editor advocates riots if Trump comes to your town.

https://twitter.com/emmettrensin/status ... 8855156742

Eh, and people advocated assassinating Obama. The unfortunate rhetoric of political rhetoric in the United States is that they are largely charged and childish beyond belief, and this extends to both sides of the aisle. Doesn't make it right, but it does make it pretty much just the norm.
Last edited by Noraika on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:08 am

Zoice wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Vox (An SJW Rag) Editor advocates riots if Trump comes to your town.

https://twitter.com/emmettrensin/status ... 8855156742

Why do you focus only on the horrors of SJW's being dumb and not the horrors of anti-SJW people like Trump being dumb? It's not as if the Social Justice side is the only one that does dumb shit.


If the SJW invaded hell I would give favorable mention to the devil.
The social justice side is the only one doing dumb shit with institutional power at this time.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zoice
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Postby Zoice » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:11 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Zoice wrote:Why do you focus only on the horrors of SJW's being dumb and not the horrors of anti-SJW people like Trump being dumb? It's not as if the Social Justice side is the only one that does dumb shit.


If the SJW invaded hell I would give favorable mention to the devil.
The social justice side is the only one doing dumb shit with institutional power at this time.

Bathroom bills, abortion clinic shutdowns in the south, heck, everything the state legistlature in the south has done in the past... forever, then there's Trump's wacky shit (which isn't institutional, yet, hopefully never).

You're waaaaaaay off base here and you need to get a better sense of proportion. You've gone full anti-SJW, never go full anti-SJW.
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Founded: Feb 05, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Othelos » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:12 am

Free speech is guaranteed by the constitution. Left OR right, good intentions or not, circumventing others' free speech because you want power is wrong.
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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:13 am

Zoice wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
If the SJW invaded hell I would give favorable mention to the devil.
The social justice side is the only one doing dumb shit with institutional power at this time.

Bathroom bills, abortion clinic shutdowns in the south, heck, everything the state legistlature in the south has done in the past... forever, then there's Trump's wacky shit (which isn't institutional, yet, hopefully never).

You're waaaaaaay off base here and you need to get a better sense of proportion. You've gone full anti-SJW, never go full anti-SJW.


Tradcon Republicans are not the alt-right, nor the anti-SJWs main contingent. I also criticized the bathroom bills, have frequently advocated pro-choice on demand, etc.

It's also a case of much of the left being in denial about what their movement is actually doing and accomplishing.

I don't need to flood theocrat republicans with thousands of statements about gays and abortion, they admit what their goals are.

The left is in denial over what their institutions are up to, so I feel the need to keep pointing it out until they admit
"Yes, the left wing is anti-male and anti-white. These are our positions." or
"I'm left wing, but not one of THOSE left wingers." like republican dissidents have done for a decade.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Zoice
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Founded: Oct 30, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Zoice » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:17 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Zoice wrote:Bathroom bills, abortion clinic shutdowns in the south, heck, everything the state legistlature in the south has done in the past... forever, then there's Trump's wacky shit (which isn't institutional, yet, hopefully never).

You're waaaaaaay off base here and you need to get a better sense of proportion. You've gone full anti-SJW, never go full anti-SJW.


Tradcon Republicans are not the alt-right, nor the anti-SJWs main contingent. I also criticized the bathroom bills, have frequently advocated pro-choice on demand, etc.

That's good of you, but it's people that are opposed to SJW's that are trying to push the bathroom bills, with the justification that either "trans people aren't real, they're a lie by the SJW's" or "it's just a bathroom, who cares".

As for the alt-right, you can't seriously be trying to imply that they're free of blame for doing really really dumb shit.

Edit:
Jesus man... the left is not anti-white or anti-male xD You have to realize how ridiculous you sound. The left tries to recognize advantages that whites and males have, and even the playing field. You're pretty damn blind if you think the world is perfectly even already. There are plenty of leftists that go too far, but that doesn't mean the whole left wing is all bullshit or whatever shit you're trying to say.
Last edited by Zoice on Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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