Austrian right-wing candidate barely loses..

[Risottia]

Who happen to support pan-Germanism. Anschluss 2.0!

What's wrong with pan-germanism?
It seems a sensible step toward a united europe to support regional and linguistic unifications in the intermediary. All of the arguments in favor of the EU can be applied in favor, and almost none of those against.

Quite not.
It's the identification of ethnicity as the key points leading to unification, and it would have the result of creating ex-novo borders between "ethnical states" that almost never existed before, thus actually impairing further unification.
The point of unifying Europe is "who gives a fuck about different ethnicity, languages, religions as long as we agree on the fundamental rights of people and on democracy".


Pan-Germanism (and Pan-Slavism and whatnot) will eventually find its role in being a part of Europe, but it will not be one of the building blocks.

[Ostroeuropa]

What's wrong with pan-germanism?
It seems a sensible step toward a united europe to support regional and linguistic unifications in the intermediary. All of the arguments in favor of the EU can be applied in favor, and almost none of those against.

Quite not.
It's the identification of ethnicity as the key points leading to unification, and it would have the result of creating ex-novo borders between "ethnical states" that almost never existed before, thus actually impairing further unification.
The point of unifying Europe is "who gives a fuck about different ethnicity, languages, religions as long as we agree on the fundamental rights of people and on democracy".

I agree that's one of the points, but that all of those things pose logistical problems to unification. Logistical problems not present in pan-germanicism and such.
So what's your argument against pan-germanicism?

Pan-Germanism (and Pan-Slavism and whatnot) will eventually find its role in being a part of Europe, but it will not be one of the building blocks.

Why not, and why do you seem to think it's a mark against his character to support it?

[Veceria]

Last time I looked through the definition of "far right" it had to do with extreme traditionalism and a "for us, against anyone else" mentality, not military juntas. And that's what his basic ideals are, when you look at some answers he was asked, even during the election (if we answered them at all, because the whole FPÖ party rhetoric is basically "if someone asks me something important that could compromise my totally-not-right-ideology, I'll just talk about how great the weather is"). I'm really not against some right views myself, but his party, their supporters and several members of the FPÖ are known for being part of the batshit-right.

The wiki says they're just nationalist liberals. Which would make them akin to the Geert Wilders freedom party in the netherlands. Do you have anything showing he supports traditionalism?

One example would be his views on marriage. His party was always on the same line as the ÖVP when it comes to traditionalist values.

Who happen to support pan-Germanism. Anschluss 2.0!

What's wrong with pan-germanism?
It seems a sensible step toward a united europe to support regional and linguistic unifications in the intermediary. All of the arguments in favor of the EU can be applied in favor, and almost none of those against.

No thank you, I want Austria to stay away from Germany as long as they have their superiority complex. They'll always view us as their dumb little brother and whine every time we do something they don't like, while doing the exact same thing a month later, saying that it was their idea all along.

[Ostroeuropa]

The wiki says they're just nationalist liberals. Which would make them akin to the Geert Wilders freedom party in the netherlands. Do you have anything showing he supports traditionalism?

One example would be his views on marriage. His party was always on the same line as the ÖVP when it comes to traditionalist values.

What's wrong with pan-germanism?
It seems a sensible step toward a united europe to support regional and linguistic unifications in the intermediary. All of the arguments in favor of the EU can be applied in favor, and almost none of those against.

No thank you, I want Austria to stay away from Germany as long as they have their superiority complex. They'll always view us as their dumb little brother and whine every time we do something they don't like, while doing the exact same thing a month later, saying that it was their idea all along.

It's absolutely fine to oppose pan-germanicism because you disagree with the goal. I just don't like people shittalking it because of naziism or racism.
As for marriage;
It would appear you are right. That's disappointing. The new nationalist resurgence has in many nations pivoted toward secularism and pro-LGBT rights in order to build a coalition. I wasn't aware Austria was an exception.

[Veceria]

One example would be his views on marriage. His party was always on the same line as the ÖVP when it comes to traditionalist values.


No thank you, I want Austria to stay away from Germany as long as they have their superiority complex. They'll always view us as their dumb little brother and whine every time we do something they don't like, while doing the exact same thing a month later, saying that it was their idea all along.

It's absolutely fine to oppose pan-germanicism because you disagree with the goal. I just don't like people shittalking it because of naziism or racism.
As for marriage;
It would appear you are right. That's disappointing. The new nationalist resurgence has in many nations pivoted toward secularism and pro-LGBT rights in order to build a coalition. I wasn't aware Austria was an exception.

It won't be nazism till you call it Anschluss

We're pro-lgbt to the outside, and still deeply "traditional" on the inside. Just don't tell anyone.
Which makes supporting a traditionalist political view here a bit silly, because all the all-powerful but deeply "traditional" ÖVP has brought us so far is corruption and regression. And the one time both ÖVP and FPÖ ruled brought us a debt that we still have to pay today.

[Hurdegaryp]

It's absolutely fine to oppose pan-germanicism because you disagree with the goal. I just don't like people shittalking it because of naziism or racism.
As for marriage;
It would appear you are right. That's disappointing. The new nationalist resurgence has in many nations pivoted toward secularism and pro-LGBT rights in order to build a coalition. I wasn't aware Austria was an exception.

It won't be nazism till you call it Anschluss

We're pro-lgbt to the outside, and still deeply "traditional" on the inside. Just don't tell anyone.
Which makes supporting a traditionalist political view here a bit silly, because all the all-powerful but deeply "traditional" ÖVP has brought us so far is corruption and regression. And the one time both ÖVP and FPÖ ruled brought us a debt that we still have to pay today.

It would be the decent thing to do if the voters who made that coalition possible would pick up the tab, but they're probably hiding themselves behind the flower boxes decorating the windows of their Alpenhäuser.

[Veceria]

It won't be nazism till you call it Anschluss

We're pro-lgbt to the outside, and still deeply "traditional" on the inside. Just don't tell anyone.
Which makes supporting a traditionalist political view here a bit silly, because all the all-powerful but deeply "traditional" ÖVP has brought us so far is corruption and regression. And the one time both ÖVP and FPÖ ruled brought us a debt that we still have to pay today.

It would be the decent thing to do if the voters who made that coalition possible would pick up the tab, but they're probably hiding themselves behind the flower boxes decorating the windows of their Alpenhäuser.

Nah, they're doing the usual thing: Blaming others. Their attempts at blaming everyone else for their shit. would be hilarious if it wasn't that sad.

[Neu Leonstein]

I'm always fascinated by the difference in which right-wing xenophobic views, racist language and the like seem to create less of an outrage in Austria than they do in Germany. You can't generalise across Germany of course either, and the biggest difference in how much far-right language and activity is tolerated in public discourse is between what was formerly West- and East Germany.

I wonder whether it is partially about the way the Nazi era is remembered. In West Germany, the political leadership was heavily implicated in what had happened, as were many teachers, professors and other people of authority. But by 1968 at the latest, those things were aired out and West Germany was forced to "take ownership" of the horrors committed by the Nazi regime, and out of that came a particular sensitivity to anything that could be construed as being a threat to a broadly inclusive and democratic society.

In East Germany, the leadership after the war was Stalinist and long-time communist and so had been working against the Nazis for a long time. Their story about the time was of a workers' struggle against fascism (aided by the USSR of course). So Nazism was something East Germany fought against, rather than it being admitted as its own past failing. Together with the general association of western-style democracy with actually undemocratic oligarchic rule, today antidemocratic and pro-Nazi sentiment appears to be far more common in eastern Germany than in the west. The greatest support for NPD, AfD and Pegida can be found there.

And in Austria the post-war leadership told a story about a country that was taken over by Germany - a victim, like Poland or France, almost. So there was no need to engage with the meaning and implications of what the Nazi regime did, and when the student revolts of the late sixties happened they didn't have the same cleansing effect on the country. And so a party that was literally founded by SS officers can become a real people's party. How much of that is related to there never having been that moment where the next generation went up to teachers, professors and even parents and confronted them with their actions during the Nazi era?

[MERIZoC]

yay for racism

yay for strawmen.

yay for sarcasm

[Imperium Britannicum]

I'd rather have a firm Austrian leader than a foreigner who thinks we should let more immigrants in.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'd rather have a firm Austrian leader than a foreigner who thinks we should let more immigrants in.

I'm sure many felt similarly in the '30s...

Oh, I don't think Austria's going Nazi right now, but nations don't turn into genocidal dictatorships overnight, generally. There is a decline, a first step on the wrong path, and then other steps, and the end point is something beyond what many expected when they took that first step.

Embracing a "strong leader" in the name of nationalism and xenophobia is one of those steps.

[Risottia]

I agree that's one of the points, but that all of those things pose logistical problems to unification. Logistical problems not present in pan-germanicism and such.

Yeah, I totally see no logistical problem in unifying a chunk of Switzerland, the most part of South Tyrol, bits of Alsace and Lorraine, Luxembourg, half of Belgium, the Netherlands, possibly the whole Scandinavia with Austria and Germany. No logistical problem at all.

Pan-Germanism (and Pan-Slavism and whatnot) will eventually find its role in being a part of Europe, but it will not be one of the building blocks.

Why not, and why do you seem to think it's a mark against his character to support it?

Because introducing a divide along (supposed) ethnical lines isn't going to help in removing divides between the European countries. In the best case, it's slowing down the unification process.

[Ostroeuropa]

Reminder, 9/10 of the working class in Austria voted for the far-right candidate.
The working classes are clearly not impressed with what a bunch of Marxist academics and virtue signalling middle class people have done to their political parties, nor the smug condescension with which their concerns have been dismissed for decades.

Like I said, they just don't learn. Rich whites smugly declaring the culture of a nation is uncivilized and needs them to force it to be more like them by importing a bunch of colonists against the will of the natives. It's reaching the point where instead of "Close the gates.", the demands will escalate to "Colonists and their descendents must be deported.".

That at least is the framing. That's why the far-right is winning the working classes. If you want that to change, you have to change the way the working classes see you, and here's a hint.
Yelling at them and demanding they change their opinions to be more like yours won't help.
Either prove their evaluation is false, or admit they've been failed by the left wing and start taking note of their concerns and actually changing policy.

The alternative is a far-right resurgence.

[Novus America]

I'd rather have a firm Austrian leader than a foreigner who thinks we should let more immigrants in.

I'm sure many felt similarly in the '30s...

Oh, I don't think Austria's going Nazi right now, but nations don't turn into genocidal dictatorships overnight, generally. There is a decline, a first step on the wrong path, and then other steps, and the end point is something beyond what many expected when they took that first step.

Embracing a "strong leader" in the name of nationalism and xenophobia is one of those steps.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

[Kelinfort]

Hey, if Europe does go AltRight, America has a legitimate reason not to give a shit about their security.

[Wolfmanne2]

Hey, if Europe does go AltRight, America has a legitimate reason not to give a shit about their security.

Meanwhile your nation can sink into the sea because of your evergrowing obesity rate .

[Kelinfort]

Hey, if Europe does go AltRight, America has a legitimate reason not to give a shit about their security.

Meanwhile your nation can sink into the sea because of your evergrowing obesity rate .

I donNt see Tonga sinking into the sea, so we probably will only lose a few inches on our height.

But if sea levels rise...

[Ostroeuropa]

Hey, if Europe does go AltRight, America has a legitimate reason not to give a shit about their security.

For someone who alludes to WW2 and nazis when discussing the issue of the new right, you sure are eager for two seperate and now rival power blocs to emerge on an ideological basis.
If the americans pull out, europe will arm and defend itself, and a new military industrial complex will emerge.

[Wolfmanne2]

Reminder, 9/10 of the working class in Austria voted for the far-right candidate.
The working classes are clearly not impressed with what a bunch of Marxist academics and virtue signalling middle class people have done to their political parties, nor the smug condescension with which their concerns have been dismissed for decades.

Like I said, they just don't learn. Rich whites smugly declaring the culture of a nation is uncivilized and needs them to force it to be more like them by importing a bunch of colonists against the will of the natives. It's reaching the point where instead of "Close the gates.", the demands will escalate to "Colonists and their descendents must be deported.".

That at least is the framing. That's why the far-right is winning the working classes. If you want that to change, you have to change the way the working classes see you, and here's a hint.
Yelling at them and demanding they change their opinions to be more like yours won't help.
Either prove their evaluation is false, or admit they've been failed by the left wing and start taking note of their concerns and actually changing policy.

The alternative is a far-right resurgence.

I propose reeducation camps for the working class so they may see why their job must be stolen by immigrants. Soon democracy will become irrelevant and SJWs shall move to a hybrid of fascism and our gynocentric-neoliberal synthesis. It will be glorious.

[Kelinfort]

Reminder, 9/10 of the working class in Austria voted for the far-right candidate.
The working classes are clearly not impressed with what a bunch of Marxist academics and virtue signalling middle class people have done to their political parties, nor the smug condescension with which their concerns have been dismissed for decades.

Like I said, they just don't learn. Rich whites smugly declaring the culture of a nation is uncivilized and needs them to force it to be more like them by importing a bunch of colonists against the will of the natives. It's reaching the point where instead of "Close the gates.", the demands will escalate to "Colonists and their descendents must be deported.".

That at least is the framing. That's why the far-right is winning the working classes. If you want that to change, you have to change the way the working classes see you, and here's a hint.
Yelling at them and demanding they change their opinions to be more like yours won't help.
Either prove their evaluation is false, or admit they've been failed by the left wing and start taking note of their concerns and actually changing policy.

The alternative is a far-right resurgence.

I propose reeducation camps for the working class so they may see why their job must be stolen by immigrants. Soon democracy will become irrelevant and SJWs shall move to a hybrid of fascism and our gynocentric-neoliberal synthesis. It will be glorious.

This is strikingly similar to how Muslims radicalize.

[Dushan]

I for one demand Germany to be restored to the Borders of 1237

Well it's actually the Holy Roman Empire... sorry : P

When you see it, you know you want it. *evil laugh*

[Wolfmanne2]

I propose reeducation camps for the working class so they may see why their job must be stolen by immigrants. Soon democracy will become irrelevant and SJWs shall move to a hybrid of fascism and our gynocentric-neoliberal synthesis. It will be glorious.

This is strikingly similar to how Muslims radicalize.

Feministu ackbar!

[Imperializt Russia]

Who happen to support pan-Germanism. Anschluss 2.0!

What's wrong with pan-germanism?
It seems a sensible step toward a united europe to support regional and linguistic unifications in the intermediary. All of the arguments in favor of the EU can be applied in favor, and almost none of those against.

Pan-Germanism today is unfortunately rather heavily rooted in the pan-German ideals the Nazis espoused and propagated as a corruption of the identity that was unifying the German states, which do survive.

Reminder, 9/10 of the working class in Austria voted for the far-right candidate.
The working classes are clearly not impressed with what a bunch of Marxist academics and virtue signalling middle class people have done to their political parties, nor the smug condescension with which their concerns have been dismissed for decades.

No, nine out of ten manual workers supported the FPO, and their support was mostly limited to the rural regions of the east.

This is not "90% of the working class", Ostro.
Can you fucking stop with the "Marxist academics" bullshit now? It's fucking tiresome.

[Kelinfort]

What's wrong with pan-germanism?
It seems a sensible step toward a united europe to support regional and linguistic unifications in the intermediary. All of the arguments in favor of the EU can be applied in favor, and almost none of those against.

Pan-Germanism today is unfortunately rather heavily rooted in the pan-German ideals the Nazis espoused and propagated as a corruption of the identity that was unifying the German states, which do survive.

Reminder, 9/10 of the working class in Austria voted for the far-right candidate.
The working classes are clearly not impressed with what a bunch of Marxist academics and virtue signalling middle class people have done to their political parties, nor the smug condescension with which their concerns have been dismissed for decades.

No, nine out of ten manual workers supported the FPO, and their support was mostly limited to the rural regions of the east.

This is not "90% of the working class", Ostro.
Can you fucking stop with the "Marxist academics" bullshit now? It's fucking tiresome.

Marxism is a direct link to neoliberalism.

[Geilinor]

Reminder, 9/10 of the working class in Austria voted for the far-right candidate.
The working classes are clearly not impressed with what a bunch of Marxist academics and virtue signalling middle class people have done to their political parties, nor the smug condescension with which their concerns have been dismissed for decades.

Like I said, they just don't learn. Rich whites smugly declaring the culture of a nation is uncivilized and needs them to force it to be more like them by importing a bunch of colonists against the will of the natives. It's reaching the point where instead of "Close the gates.", the demands will escalate to "Colonists and their descendents must be deported.".

Which rich people are declaring that Europe is uncivilized?