Austrian right-wing candidate barely loses..

[Lowell Leber]

Good I suppose, Austrians chose the lesser of two evil tho I find the recurrence of those "pest or cholera" referendum happening everywhere in the West lately to be quite an unsettling phenomena. I hope the Establishment will get it's shits together before the populists make their way into power as the mainstream opinion is becoming more and more accustomed enough to their presence.

If you are for democracy than you should be favoring the populists over the establishment...

[Imperializt Russia]

Who even is left and in power in Europe?

Tsipras.

...

Well, if you don't look too close at the austerity policies he has to enforce.

He tried, bless his idealistic heart.

[Conserative Morality]

Tsipras.

...

Well, if you don't look too close at the austerity policies he has to enforce.

Mark him as "left-wing, not in power"?

[Olerand]

Who even is left and in power in Europe?

Tsipras.

...

Well, if you don't look too close at the austerity policies he has to enforce.

Really? Really? Clearly austerity in Greece is not what he wants, but his government continues to make the previous New Democracy chaps look like centrist chumps. His ability to swallow the Troika's (sorry, what are they called now?)... Um, demands, are an amazing feat of political malleability.

[Jumalariik]

Orban?

We have high standards for Muslim hate.

Muslims have been nothing but helpful to the world and especially to Europe.

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Japan an Italy are literally dying.

http://www.worldometers.info/world-popu ... opulation/

Italy: 59,801,004 people and rising.

Not exactly dying.
Stop believing shit.

Yeah, it's super healthy that between the years of 2014-2016, a country of 58 million people, grew by 11,000 people. You're right.

[Novus America]

Japan an Italy are literally dying.

http://www.worldometers.info/world-popu ... opulation/

Italy: 59,801,004 people and rising.

Not exactly dying.
Stop believing shit.

Umm
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... e-plummets

[Imperializt Russia]

http://www.worldometers.info/world-popu ... opulation/

Italy: 59,801,004 people and rising.

Not exactly dying.
Stop believing shit.

Yeah, it's super healthy that between the years of 2014-2016, a country of 58 million people, grew by 11,000 people. You're right.

It's not even necessarily a problem if the population falls, y'know.

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Yeah, it's super healthy that between the years of 2014-2016, a country of 58 million people, grew by 11,000 people. You're right.

It's not even necessarily a problem if the population falls, y'know.

While true, the problem becomes that these countries are largely welfare states, and if people aren't working, it becomes unsustainable.

[Novus America]

With the exception of Orban they all belong more or less to the broader centrist, sometimes neoliberal leaning etablishment.

Well, unless "broader centrist" has suddenly become left-wing, I think we made our point, eh.

Which is why this is not really left vs right which is a false dichotomy anyways. It is more like traditionalism, nativism and protectionism v extreme social liberalism, mass immigration and globalism.

[Dushan]

Tsipras.

...

Well, if you don't look too close at the austerity policies he has to enforce.

Really? Really? Clearly austerity in Greece is not what he wants, but his government continues to make the previous New Democracy chaps look like centrist chumps. His ability to swallow the Troika's (sorry, what are they called now?)... Um, demands, are an amazing feat of political malleability.

Not that he has a lot of choice. The dictate enacted towards Greece was a low point in European Diplomacy, not far from the League of Versailles Treaty. Also if you believe what Varoufakis said about the State of Greece he encountered and the sheer ignorance of the Eurocrats... that makes one shudder by what sort of People Europe is currently being governed. Those People don't have a Plan B. Neither for Mass Migration Crisis...

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Well, unless "broader centrist" has suddenly become left-wing, I think we made our point, eh.

Which is why this is not really left vs right which is a false dichotomy anyways. It is more like traditionalism, nativism and protectionism v extreme social liberalism, mass immigration and globalism.

Most aspects in both are unappealing to me.

[Novus America]

Yeah, it's super healthy that between the years of 2014-2016, a country of 58 million people, grew by 11,000 people. You're right.

It's not even necessarily a problem if the population falls, y'know.

Umm tell it to Japan. Do you think structural recession, spiraling debt, collapsing pensions and deflation to be good things?

[Novus America]

Which is why this is not really left vs right which is a false dichotomy anyways. It is more like traditionalism, nativism and protectionism v extreme social liberalism, mass immigration and globalism.

Most aspects in both are unappealing to me.

Me too. I think we need a new center.

[Olerand]

Really? Really? Clearly austerity in Greece is not what he wants, but his government continues to make the previous New Democracy chaps look like centrist chumps. His ability to swallow the Troika's (sorry, what are they called now?)... Um, demands, are an amazing feat of political malleability.

Not that he has a lot of choice. The dictate enacted towards Greece was a low point in European Diplomacy, not far from the League of Versailles Treaty. Also if you believe what Varoufakis said about the State of Greece he encountered and the sheer ignorance of the Eurocrats... that makes one shudder by what sort of People Europe is currently being governed. Those People don't have a Plan B. Neither for Mass Migration Crisis...

Europe never has a plan B for anything, not even for matters directly concerning it, like the proposed Constitution in 2005. If plan A doesn't work, you keep hammering that star shaped toy into that square opening until something happens, that's the Brussels way (also, funny enough, a good description of Belgian politics).

But frankly, if Tsipras had any ideological consistency, or any understanding of what's good for Greece (which, genuinely now, is not austerity. Greece fucked up, and it needs to get its finances in order, but this only worsening the problem, and Greece's debt has only risen), he would have resigned after the failure of the talks with the Troika after his silly little referendum. Let New Democracy ruin Greece, and work to develop something better, a project that if necessary will happen outside of the Eurozone.

[Olivaero]

Growth is partly driven by population increase, In Capital in the 21st century Picketty estimates population growth and growth in productivity account for about half each of the total growth percentage wise, it's a simplification, but generally historically when growth is low population growth is low and only started spiking when growth started happening. So in other words, to spark Growth in the EU we should throw open our borders like America did in the 19th century. Which incidentally is a large reason why America is the largest economy in the world today.

First of all America did not "throw open the boarders" in the 19th century. Only did for Europeans.

Which is a point. Immigrant ares not some widgets. Each are unique and some better than others. A English speaking Doctor is of more economic value than an illiterate Wahhabi (who is of no value to the resident country).

This is why immigration should be based on what the country needs.

Again I am not against immigration but there is a middle ground between open borders and ban them all.

Certainly population growth can trigger overall growth, but what is needed is per capita growth.

But the situation in 19th century America is totally different than Europe today. The US was a rapidly growing industrial and protectionist country. We needed people to work our factories and had plenty of land to spare.

Europe does not have any of these conditions.

Your example is particularly amusing because a massive proportion of the Doctors in the UK, perhaps even close to half or over are from recent immigrant stock, our health service would be in dire straits without them. I'll own up to not knowing a great deal about the actual immigration system in 19th century USA but the quotas must of been fairly generous. And another thing to consider is a million people in turn of the century USA was way way more than a million people is now by percentage of population. Your right the situations aren't exatly the same, we'll probably need to educate them before they can contribute to the economy as much as an immigrant in the past might of but the new economy takes less educating in than people think really we just need to encourage employers to take on more aprentices and not rely on degrees so much.

[Hurdegaryp]

Bias OP much?

You would have preferred it if Traditionalism had created this thread?

[Imperializt Russia]

It's not even necessarily a problem if the population falls, y'know.

Umm tell it to Japan. Do you think structural recession, spiraling debt, collapsing pensions and deflation to be good things?

I said "necessarily".

Contributed to by cultural reasons also, Japan has a problem.

[Novus America]

First of all America did not "throw open the boarders" in the 19th century. Only did for Europeans.

Which is a point. Immigrant ares not some widgets. Each are unique and some better than others. A English speaking Doctor is of more economic value than an illiterate Wahhabi (who is of no value to the resident country).

This is why immigration should be based on what the country needs.

Again I am not against immigration but there is a middle ground between open borders and ban them all.

Certainly population growth can trigger overall growth, but what is needed is per capita growth.

But the situation in 19th century America is totally different than Europe today. The US was a rapidly growing industrial and protectionist country. We needed people to work our factories and had plenty of land to spare.

Europe does not have any of these conditions.

Your example is particularly amusing because a massive proportion of the Doctors in the UK, perhaps even close to half or over are from recent immigrant stock, our health service would be in dire straits without them. I'll own up to not knowing a great deal about the actual immigration system in 19th century USA but the quotas must of been fairly generous. And another thing to consider is a million people in turn of the century USA was way way more than a million people is now by percentage of population. Your right the situations aren't exatly the same, we'll probably need to educate them before they can contribute to the economy as much as an immigrant in the past might of but the new economy takes less educating in than people think really we just need to encourage employers to take on more aprentices and not rely on degrees so much.

My example was deliberate. I am not against all immigration. I said the Emglish speaking doctor is good. But that is not an argument for open borders but an arguement for immigration controls that let in those based on what the country needs.

Again the US in the 19th century could support, and in fact needed huge numbers of immigrants. The US then had a shortage of workers. Europe has massive unemployment.

And it is not a matter of merely educating them. That does not do much when educated Europeans are out of work.

First you need a growing ecnomy, low unemployment and plenty of land. Europe has none of these.

[Novus America]

Umm tell it to Japan. Do you think structural recession, spiraling debt, collapsing pensions and deflation to be good things?

I said "necessarily".

Contributed to by cultural reasons also, Japan has a problem.

Those things are not merely cultural. Italy is facing the same thing. Those things are an inevitable part of population decline.

[Greed and Death]

Was this before or after the recount gave the election to Norbert Gerwald Hofer by a narrow margin ?

[Hurdegaryp]

Was this before or after the recount gave the election to Norbert Gerwald Hofer by a narrow margin ?

I see you're working your alternative reality magic again.

[Imperializt Russia]

I said "necessarily".

Contributed to by cultural reasons also, Japan has a problem.

Those things are not merely cultural. Italy is facing the same thing. Those things are an inevitable part of population decline.

I said "also" and "contributed to".

[Novus America]

Those things are not merely cultural. Italy is facing the same thing. Those things are an inevitable part of population decline.

I said "also" and "contributed to".

Still population decline simply does not work in a welfare state.

[Olivaero]

Your example is particularly amusing because a massive proportion of the Doctors in the UK, perhaps even close to half or over are from recent immigrant stock, our health service would be in dire straits without them. I'll own up to not knowing a great deal about the actual immigration system in 19th century USA but the quotas must of been fairly generous. And another thing to consider is a million people in turn of the century USA was way way more than a million people is now by percentage of population. Your right the situations aren't exatly the same, we'll probably need to educate them before they can contribute to the economy as much as an immigrant in the past might of but the new economy takes less educating in than people think really we just need to encourage employers to take on more aprentices and not rely on degrees so much.

My example was deliberate. I am not against all immigration. I said the Emglish speaking doctor is good. But that is not an argument for open borders but an arguement for immigration controls that let in those based on what the country needs.

Again the US in the 19th century could support, and in fact needed huge numbers of immigrants. The US then had a shortage of workers. Europe has massive unemployment.

And it is not a matter of merely educating them. That does not do much when educated Europeans are out of work.

First you need a growing ecnomy, low unemployment and plenty of land. Europe has none of these.

The european economy is growing actually, what we need is rebalancing of the economy away from the massive finacial sector which is eating up all the available cash and essentially sitting on it. Immigration is not the problem it doesn't even exasperate the problem since as far as I know in much of Europe the unemployment numbers aren't increasing.