Stopping Edu. Funds for Disabled Students over Bathroom Laws

[Liriena]

It's nothing more than bullying and pure extortion. Can we get a law passed to keep the feds from pulling this kind of shit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the bathroom rule only apply to private businesses? There's a simple solution. If you don't like segregated bathrooms, DON'T SHOP AT STORES THAT HAVE THEM. Why is that so difficult?

It's "bullying" to stop paying someone when they break the rules they are supposed to follow in exchange for your money?

Also, no, the bathroom rule did not only apply to private businesses. It also prohibited trans people from using the restrooms corresponding with their gender in public property, including schools... which is a direct violation of federal regulations.

[Linux and the X]

It's nothing more than bullying and pure extortion. Can we get a law passed to keep the feds from pulling this kind of shit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the bathroom rule only apply to private businesses? There's a simple solution. If you don't like segregated bathrooms, DON'T SHOP AT STORES THAT HAVE THEM. Why is that so difficult?

No. Actually, NC's law only allowed businesses to discriminate, but mandated it for schools and public agencies. Anyway, this doesn't only apply to NC. Please explain how enforcing the law is bullying.

the policy just destroyed the lives of two kids because of cultural indifference.

No, the football jock committed a hate crime. That's ruining his own life, and ending someone else's.

[The East Marches]

and how will you stop parents from suing the school districts???

By making it clear that complying with federal law does not incur civil liability, and any such lawsuits will be dismissed with the plaintiff responsible for all legal costs?

This is about daddy's girl coming home crying because some naked boy jumped into the shower with them... it is not a matter of if but when and how often...

Well, unless over 40 years of precedent is unreliable, the answer to that is "never".

If somebody else gets into power who doesn't recognize transgender people's rights. They can threaten to cut certain funding for the states too. I'm sure some legal wizard can dream up justification for it. They've done worse on less basis before.

That'd b pretty surprising, since Title IX prohibits discrimination.

Title IX can always be reinterpreted. All they gotta do is get that right judge. Not very difficult considering the swings in our election cycle make sure that at least 40% of them are going to be right-wing. I'd think on that before you get so confident. If the November election goes South, all they gotta do is appeal up to the Supreme Court because of who will be appointed. Not exactly the odds I would want to put myself under.

[Arumbia67]

It's nothing more than bullying and pure extortion. Can we get a law passed to keep the feds from pulling this kind of shit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the bathroom rule only apply to private businesses? There's a simple solution. If you don't like segregated bathrooms, DON'T SHOP AT STORES THAT HAVE THEM. Why is that so difficult?

No. Actually, NC's law only allowed businesses to discriminate, but mandated it for schools and public agencies. Anyway, this doesn't only apply to NC. Please explain how enforcing the law is bullying.

the policy just destroyed the lives of two kids because of cultural indifference.

No, the football jock committed a hate crime. That's ruining his own life, and ending someone else's.

Threatening to withhold a necessary item because someone didn't do what you want? That isn't enforcing the law. That's abusing your position to force people to do what you want. Anyway, what hate crime did he commit?

[Arumbia67]

By making it clear that complying with federal law does not incur civil liability, and any such lawsuits will be dismissed with the plaintiff responsible for all legal costs?


Well, unless over 40 years of precedent is unreliable, the answer to that is "never".


That'd b pretty surprising, since Title IX prohibits discrimination.

Title IX can always be reinterpreted. All they gotta do is get that right judge. Not very difficult considering the swings in our election cycle make sure that at least 40% of them are going to be right-wing. I'd think on that before you get so confident. If the November election goes South, all they gotta do is appeal up to the Supreme Court because of who will be appointed. Not exactly the odds I would want to put myself under.

Enough with the scaremongering. Title IX isn't going to be changed or reinterpreted. The extreme amount of backlash wouldn't be worth it. Even assuming Trump somehow wins, and gets his nominee on the court, who's to say he or she will rule in his favor?

[Linux and the X]

Threatening to withhold a necessary item because someone didn't do what you want? That isn't enforcing the law That's abusing your position to force people to do what you want.

It's not "because someone didn't do what you want"; it's because they're violating federal law. (And, given the requirements of § 1682, continuing to do so after being warned of the consequence.)

Anyway, what hate crime did he commit?

Erm, murder?

[MFrost]

and how will you stop parents from suing the school districts???

By making it clear that complying with federal law does not incur civil liability, and any such lawsuits will be dismissed with the plaintiff responsible for all legal costs?

does this apply in Texas, Arkansas, North Carolina and probably a number of other states?

This is about daddy's girl coming home crying because some naked boy jumped into the shower with them... it is not a matter of if but when and how often...

Well, unless over 40 years of precedent is unreliable, the answer to that is "never".[/quote]

good luck with that, you are not dealing with adults here but a wide spectrum of teenage boys, across the entire nation. never is a strong word kind of absolute just 1 incidence breaks your argument.

[Socialist Tera]

Americans, did that really happen? If so, why is it more important that trans people have bathroom laws than disabled people having the provisions needed to succeed in life?

[Linux and the X]

By making it clear that complying with federal law does not incur civil liability, and any such lawsuits will be dismissed with the plaintiff responsible for all legal costs?

does this apply in Texas, Arkansas, North Carolina and probably a number of other states?

Erm, yes. Federal law applies in every state.

[Arumbia67]

Threatening to withhold a necessary item because someone didn't do what you want? That isn't enforcing the law That's abusing your position to force people to do what you want.

It's not "because someone didn't do what you want"; it's because they're violating federal law. (And, given the requirements of § 1682, continuing to do so after being warned of the consequence.)

Anyway, what hate crime did he commit?

Erm, murder?

How can murder be a hate crime? Unless you can actually prove he actually killed the person because they were trans/gay whatever.

[Liriena]

Trans women have been going into women's restrooms for decades, and there have been no recorded cases of sexual harrassment in schools perpetrated by trans students or cisgender students posing as trans in any of the jurisdictions where trans people have been allowed to use the restrooms corresponding with their gender, or the jurisdictions where their right to do so has been recognized by law.

If all you have is wild speculation of a sudden surge of bigoted helicopter parents filing frivolous lawsuits, then we have little to discuss.

And while we are at it... who are you?

However this is going to go nationwide, and not to some small percentage of the general population. different areas have different cultural values, they also have different moral standards.
Are the bathrooms you are talking about monitored, under what conditions were the transgendered children allowed to use the restrooms? were they cleared out first or just adhoc usage?
What measures did the school take to protect not only the transgendered child but the other children potentially using this bathroom? Girls can be vicious too if they feel threatened.

Not as far as I know, not as far as I know, none as far as I know.
Yes, people can be vicious when they feel threatened... but as I said, so far there have been no recorded instances of sexual harrassment in schools perpetrated by trans students or cisgender students posing as trans in public schools that allowed trans students to use restrooms corresponding with their genders. If any cisgender girls feel threatened to the point of being violent by the mere presence of a trans girl in the restroom, in a context in which trans girls have, as far as we know, never sexually harrassed, abused or assaulted cisgender girls in school restrooms, then the trans girl in question is not the one to blame. Rather, it's the cisgender girl, and whoever convinced her that the mere presence of trans girls in the restroom was dangerous.

i am stating the above because the directive exponentially and dramatically increases the odds of an adverse event occurring especially if a school does not take proper precautions. This is not limited to just non-transgender students. But is inclusive of transgender students being targeted, bullied, beat up.

As far as I know, no jurisdictions that allowed trans students to use the school restrooms that corresponded with their gender faced an "exponential" or "dramatic" increase in adverse events. And as for trans students being targeted... trans people do already face a lot of harrassment, abuse and assault, but as far as I can tell their access to their gender's restroom has not played any part in making this worse. And forcing them to use the wrong restroom, and forcibly outing them, if they were not out to their fellow students already, is not going to make things better.

Do you honestly think the football jock down south in Texas or in the bible belt is going to let some transgender kid walk into the bathroom his cheerleader girlfriend just walked into?

Do you think the same football jock is going to act civil towards a trans girl in the men's restroom?

give it a moments thought what is the culture like down there, how were they raised, what are their morals and beliefs? Putting yourself in that persons shoes or just picturing it from the outside looking in, what do you think is about to happen. A happy go for it slap on the back or something else? So when some transgender kid winds up dead because of this who will the parents look to for enforcing this policy and setting their kid up? It must be safe the school said it was ok to do so... the policy just destroyed the lives of two kids because of cultural indifference.

So... your argument is that attempts to end institutional discrimination against trans youth are more dangerous to trans people than transphobic policies, and should be abandoned in exchange for... what?

I honestly do not feel this directive was well thought out.

No offense, but I honestly do not feel your position on this matter was well thought out. Your argument is built upon the expectation of an extreme, widespread and malevolent reaction to any inclusive policies.

Transphobic people will do horrible things. They have been doing horrible things since long before anti-discrimination policies were put in place. They have mocked, vilified and smeared trans people in the worst ways. They have harrassed, abused and assaulted them, often with impunity. When they could not find a real instance of trans students abusing anti-discrimination policies, they made them up.

who i am is unimportant to the discussion, just new member who found this to be an interesting topic.

Alright.

[Linux and the X]

Americans, did that really happen? If so, why is it more important that trans people have bathroom laws than disabled people having the provisions needed to succeed in life?

There's not really a conflict between the interests. States can easily refrain from violating federal law and will continue to receive federal funding. A better question is why any state would consider it more important to discriminate against trans students than to receive federal funding.

How can murder be a hate crime? Unless you can actually prove he actually killed the person because they were trans/gay whatever.

The hypothetical established it was indeed because she was trans.

[Vassenor]

So today I learned that people think that there should be no consequences for violating federal law.

[Linux and the X]

So today I learned that people think that there should be no consequences for violating federal law.

And if there are, it's the federal government's fault.

[Socialist Tera]

Americans, did that really happen? If so, why is it more important that trans people have bathroom laws than disabled people having the provisions needed to succeed in life?

There's not really a conflict between the interests. States can easily refrain from violating federal law and will continue to receive federal funding. A better question is why any state would consider it more important to discriminate against trans students than to receive federal funding.

How can murder be a hate crime? Unless you can actually prove he actually killed the person because they were trans/gay whatever.

The hypothetical established it was indeed because she was trans.

I would imagine fundamentalist states would. If there are states where disabled people are treated like trash at their schools. I see no reason why they wouldn't do that. I don't agree with that of course but I have no faith in conservative America.

[Liriena]

Americans, did that really happen? If so, why is it more important that trans people have bathroom laws than disabled people having the provisions needed to succeed in life?

What happened was that a handful of states thought that they could have their cake and eat it too. They thought that they could simultaneously violate federal education regulations while receiving federal education funding. Being inclusive towards trans students is not more important than disabled students receiving much needed funding. Both are equally important, as far as I am concerned, and the state governments should have thought of that before they decided to knowingly and irresponsibly enact a series of policies that put said funding in peril.

[Allanea]

When people passed laws that empower the President to administer Federal funding to the point that he had the power to cut off funding to states, they set themselves up for this to happen.

If the states don't like this, they have two choices:

1. Refuse federal funding altogether.
2. Obey the President's lawful authority.

There's no way you can get the government to subsidize your schools and then not follow its lawful mandates.

[MFrost]

It's nothing more than bullying and pure extortion. Can we get a law passed to keep the feds from pulling this kind of shit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the bathroom rule only apply to private businesses? There's a simple solution. If you don't like segregated bathrooms, DON'T SHOP AT STORES THAT HAVE THEM. Why is that so difficult?

No. Actually, NC's law only allowed businesses to discriminate, but mandated it for schools and public agencies. Anyway, this doesn't only apply to NC. Please explain how enforcing the law is bullying.

the policy just destroyed the lives of two kids because of cultural indifference.

No, the football jock committed a hate crime. That's ruining his own life, and ending someone else's.

either way due to a policy a region was not ready to embrace someone died and someone goes to jail... at what point does the state take responsibility for imposing policy upon a population which yields unfavorable results.

i have a friend currently suing the school district because their kid committed suicide due to bullying, the kid was on the spectrum and had a hard time socializing with other kids.

and you think something like this is not going to occur at an exponential rate among transgendered kids as it goes nationwide. what is acceptable how many are you willing to lose in your drive for equality? is one ok how about 20 or 100 kids, are they just sacrificial lambs or how would say collateral damage in this fight for rights?

Say no to bullying... when and where will this apply ? As long as you get your restroom who cares...

[Linux and the X]

There's not really a conflict between the interests. States can easily refrain from violating federal law and will continue to receive federal funding. A better question is why any state would consider it more important to discriminate against trans students than to receive federal funding.


The hypothetical established it was indeed because she was trans.

I would imagine fundamentalist states would. If there are states where disabled people are treated like trash at their schools. I see no reason why they wouldn't do that. I don't agree with that of course but I have no faith in conservative America.

Surely you would agree that the blame belongs with the states that choose to violate federal law, rather than the federal government enforcing that law?

Mono-W Humans? Ew. Izzet4lyfe.

[Allanea]

Do you honestly think the football jock down south in Texas or in the bible belt is going to let some transgender kid walk into the bathroom his cheerleader girlfriend just walked into? give it a moments thought what is the culture like down there, how were they raised, what are their morals and beliefs? Putting yourself in that persons shoes or just picturing it from the outside looking in, what do you think is about to happen. A happy go for it slap on the back or something else? So when some transgender kid winds up dead because of this who will the parents look to for enforcing this policy and setting their kid up? It must be safe the school said it was ok to do so... the policy just destroyed the lives of two kids because of cultural indifference.

So, you are hauling out 'cultural differences' now? I thought conservatives were against cultural relativism? Or is cultural relativism only okay when it's about white Christians in the South?

Even if we assume - momentarily - that an actual boy is going into the girls' bathroom, the adequate response to that is not to murder them.

If the football jock is the sort of scumbag that violently murders another human being over them being in a different bathroom, then they don't deserve to be part of society.

They deserve to be in prison.

[Liriena]

No. Actually, NC's law only allowed businesses to discriminate, but mandated it for schools and public agencies. Anyway, this doesn't only apply to NC. Please explain how enforcing the law is bullying.


No, the football jock committed a hate crime. That's ruining his own life, and ending someone else's.

either way due to a policy a region was not ready to embrace someone died and someone goes to jail... at what point does the state take responsibility for imposing policy upon a population which yields unfavorable results.

i have a friend currently suing the school district because their kid committed suicide due to bullying, the kid was on the spectrum and had a hard time socializing with other kids.

and you think something like this is not going to occur at an exponential rate among transgendered kids as it goes nationwide. what is acceptable how many are you willing to lose in your drive for equality? is one ok how about 20 or 100 kids, are they just sacrificial lambs or how would say collateral damage in this fight for rights?

Say no to bullying... when and where will this apply ? As long as you get your restroom who cares...

Wow, that's some awful melodrama... and I'm Latin!

You are genuinely worried about trans youth dying? Then how about you propose a solution to the already disproportionate rates of harrassment, abuse, assault and suicide suffered by the trans community in places where they are not protected by anti-discrimination policies?

[Socialist Tera]

I would imagine fundamentalist states would. If there are states where disabled people are treated like trash at their schools. I see no reason why they wouldn't do that. I don't agree with that of course but I have no faith in conservative America.

Surely you would agree that the blame belongs with the states that choose to violate federal law, rather than the federal government enforcing that law?

Mono-W Humans? Ew. Izzet4lyfe.

I play Mono-white humans in MTG, it's OP as fuck but yes, the state is to blame.

[USS Monitor]

However this is going to go nationwide, and not to some small percentage of the general population. different areas have different cultural values, they also have different moral standards.

Are the bathrooms you are talking about monitored, under what conditions were the transgendered children allowed to use the restrooms? were they cleared out first or just adhoc usage?
What measures did the school take to protect not only the transgendered child but the other children potentially using this bathroom? Girls can be vicious too if they feel threatened.

"Cleared out first"? WTF? Do you think trans kids are contagious or something?

i am stating the above because the directive exponentially and dramatically increases the odds of an adverse event occurring especially if a school does not take proper precautions. This is not limited to just non-transgender students. But is inclusive of transgender students being targeted, bullied, beat up.

Do you honestly think the football jock down south in Texas or in the bible belt is going to let some transgender kid walk into the bathroom his cheerleader girlfriend just walked into? give it a moments thought what is the culture like down there, how were they raised, what are their morals and beliefs? Putting yourself in that persons shoes or just picturing it from the outside looking in, what do you think is about to happen. A happy go for it slap on the back or something else? So when some transgender kid winds up dead because of this who will the parents look to for enforcing this policy and setting their kid up? It must be safe the school said it was ok to do so... the policy just destroyed the lives of two kids because of cultural indifference.

I honestly do not feel this directive was well thought out.

who i am is unimportant to the discussion, just new member who found this to be an interesting topic.

Oh, sure Southerners just reflexively murder anyone who offends their sensibilities, and they can't be taught any different because that's just naturally how they are. The only way to prevent it is by pandering to their whims. I'll be sure to keep this in mind next time a Southerner tells me they don't have a problem with bigotry down there.

[The East Marches]

So today I learned that people think that there should be no consequences for violating federal law.

No, no. They only want to be treated the same as our politicians. You can hardly blame them.

[USS Monitor]

Americans, did that really happen? If so, why is it more important that trans people have bathroom laws than disabled people having the provisions needed to succeed in life?

What makes you think we don't want both? You've misunderstood the situation if you think Obama is trying to deprive disabled people of their education.