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Knife attack in Munich, 1 dead - Islamism or not?

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New Benian Republic
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Postby New Benian Republic » Tue May 10, 2016 8:59 am

Alvecia wrote:
Wisconsia wrote:see how many were muslim terrorist attacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... e_2016#May

What of it?

It's fun to post links from Wikipedia. :p
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

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New Benian Republic
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Postby New Benian Republic » Tue May 10, 2016 9:00 am

Alvecia wrote:
New Benian Republic wrote:I atleast don't hide what I think and feel. I feel like I'm a lot better than those whom lie only to stab you in the back. Plus you wouldn't exactly understand as your country has almost never been fucked over.

Idk, there was that one time we got double teamed by the French and the Norwegians.
But this is hardly the place.

Ah yes. Apologies let us drop it.
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
Pro: United Ireland, IRA, Allan Ryan, Palestine, Malvinas, Ukraine, Hamas-Fatah cooperation, legalized Gay marriage, Tibetan Resistance, Basque Separatists, OPM.
Neutral: Bathroom segregation.

Anti: English Imperialism, Nazism, communism, Israel, Zionism, Margret thatcher, Martin McGuinness, good Friday agreement.
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Keshokif
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Postby Keshokif » Tue May 10, 2016 9:00 am

Alvecia wrote:
Keshokif wrote:
I don't want to be 'that guy', but I'm gonna have to be 'that guy' for a bit...
It's a phase.
Seriously, though, Islam has been a really advanced religion for a long time. While Christians were battling with each other, land-grabbing and in-fighting, the Muslim world was medically advanced, fairly unified (except for the odd Sunni-Shi'a rivalry), and geared towards technological advancements more than militaristic ones. They were tolerant of other faiths (especially Christians, contrary to other beliefs) allowing them the freedom to not serve in the military if they didn't want to. Sure, there was a tax for this, but remember, while this is happening, Christians in Europe were literally murdering Jews... Yeah, thought anti-Semetism was a thing of the 20th and 21st Centuries?
On top of this, Islam has actually been a religion of peace for the longest time. Sure, you could argue that the initial expansion of the Islamic Caliphate was violent, but every religion has had its own expansionist periods, and while Christianity managed to do this fairly peacefully, it was the exception, not the norm. Since that moment, most conflicts were Christian-initiated. What's more, when Richard I of England was captured by Saladin, the two developed a cordial relationship, leading to Saladin allowing Richard to leave peacefully. I highly doubt that would have ever happened in Christendom, even to a Christian leader. Heck, see what the English Kings did to the French during the 100-Years War.
Ismalic violence is an extremely recent thing, and it wasn't even a natural progression. When Western forces took over the Middle East and North Africa, two very prominent centres for Islam, who wouldn't expect them to go rogue? Compare this with Early Persia, a nation which, while possessing significant Western influence, managed to remain very civilised up until Islamist extremists, largely inspired by the oppression dealt by Western countries to their neighbours, took the place. Islamism is a product of Western stupidity and colonialism - case closed. Hence why colonialism is such a terrible thing. Every state which has been colonised by Westerners (and yet still has a large majority of the once-oppressed native peoples of the land) is doing either terribly or worse-off than Western powers. I think that, had the West taken a better approach to foreign countries, there would not be so much poverty and ethnic tension in the world today, and definitely no Islamic terrorism.
There is only one solution to a problem created by the hate of the west, and it is not to continue doing the same thing we've been doing for ages. The solution is to be open and caring. Yes, Islamic terrorism is a problem - I will never deny that. Human rights abuses in any form must be decried. However, the solution is not to drop bombs on Muslims, not to impose Western dominance on oppressed people and not to turn away all of them because of our own mistakes. We must be willing to demonstrate that we can learn. For if we don't, then this problem will only get worse.

Hard to feel sympathy for that position given the aforementioned human rights abuses.

So, because they have done many attacks while provoked by westerners, it's entirely their faults? If where you live was taken over by another power, and they repressed you for being of the ethnicity you belong to, or your religion, or anything really, you wouldn't want to fight back?

Alvecia wrote:Also can I bring up this point, cause it's been on my mind for a while now, and I know it's gonna be unpopular with many but hear me out.

[rant]
Fucking "Western Imperialism"
I don't buy it.
I mean sure, I get that during the colonial periods we did some fucked up shit, and I get that in the not too distant past there been some other fucked up shit, but really at this point every time I see someone cry "Western Imperialism" or "Western Dominance" or anything like that it pisses me right off.
There comes a point where you have to stop blaming others for your misfortune and start blaming yourself for doing fuck all about it and I think that time has past.
It turned from a legit excuse to something a whiny 20 something might use to justify living in his parents basement.
So I don't know, you can sit there and cry "It's not our fault" or you can stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got.

[/rant]

Ah, this point. I have seen this numerous times.
The problem with it lies in how consistently it fails.
Think about it, most post-colonial countries have terrible economies, a lot of tensions and unrest, and often despotic leaders who oppress their people. Is this a problem of the colonised people? I suppose we shouldn't overlook that possibility. But really, who was it who divided countries up arbitrarily and thereby caused this tension? Who was it who stole resources from these countries? Who was it who often enslaved the people, and even if not that, treated them as second- or third-class citizens? And who is it that now controls the vast majority of the money in the world, and hold the largest armies in the world, and very often find it economically viable to keep such countries in severe poverty to get better deals on valuable resources? I'll give you a hint - it's not the governments of those countries, though they very often work against the people in their own ways.
According to your idea, there should be a number of very prosperous post-colonial countries, since, like you say, the opportunity is there to "stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got". Looking at the Legatum Prosperity Index, which looks at factors such as wealth, economic growth, education, health, personal well-being, and quality of life, there are 7 countries in the top 30 which were colonised by western powers at some point. Now, New Zealand, Canada, Australia and the US don't count, because the majority of the population are descended from those who actually colonised the place. That leaves Singapore, Hong Kong and the UAE. Now, Hong Kong is a very recently de-colonised state, and it is a micro-state which is under the wing of China, so the prosperity can be somewhat attributed to that. Singapore is a bit less recent, but is also a micro-state. Micro-states don't really count, as they have a lot less land to cover, a lot less diversity of people groups, and therefore a lot less post-colonial sentiment. Plus, both Hong Kong and Singapore are fairly Westernised. That simply leaves the UAE. The UAE was never really colonised in a traditional sense. The sheikhs of the seven Emirates of the UAE still held control over the land, even if under a British protectorate. Hence, they themselves were able to reap the benefits of the oil market. Moreover, the bottom 20 are almost entirely populated by post-colonial states from Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and Central America (the one exception being Ethiopia, which was never colonised, but consistently had pressure put on them by nearby Western powers), states which actually do have many abundant natural resources which, if they were truly able to drag themselves from the mire of colonialism, would set them on the paths to becoming near-superpowers. Countries like Nigeria, the DRC, India especially, could easily be superpowers in an equal international community. However, they are not. This suggests some form of colonial effect lingering even today.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Tue May 10, 2016 9:01 am

New Benian Republic wrote:
Alvecia wrote:What of it?

It's fun to post links from Wikipedia. :p

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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue May 10, 2016 9:01 am

New Benian Republic wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Can't say I'm surprised.

I atleast don't hide what I think and feel. I feel like I'm a lot better than those whom lie only to stab you in the back. Plus you wouldn't exactly understand as your country has almost never been fucked over.

I live in the US too, and I'm glad and praise Allah (SWT) that my parents have told me the hard truth about America and the West. I don't say the pledge nor sing the anthem. And I won't ever until America gets it's ish together.
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
I'm a New Afrikan Muslim :) https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality Sister nation of El-Amin Caliphate
Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue May 10, 2016 9:03 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
New Benian Republic wrote:I atleast don't hide what I think and feel. I feel like I'm a lot better than those whom lie only to stab you in the back. Plus you wouldn't exactly understand as your country has almost never been fucked over.

I live in the US too, and I'm glad and praise Allah (SWT) that my parents have told me the hard truth about America and the West. I don't say the pledge nor sing the anthem. And I won't ever until America gets it's ish together.


By all means, feel free to leave.
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Stormopolis
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Postby Stormopolis » Tue May 10, 2016 9:04 am

Hi! Let me say one more thing before I go do something else: islam is not a religion. It's a virulent ideology that demands to get its claws in everything.
How do you know somebody is trans or vegan?
Don't worry. They'll tell you at the slightest provocation.

Check my privilege? I won't. Even if I knew how.

Of late there has been a 312% increase of people putting their words and thus their fingers in my mouth. Please refrain from doing so.

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New Benian Republic
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Postby New Benian Republic » Tue May 10, 2016 9:04 am

Stormopolis wrote:Hi! Let me say one more thing before I go do something else: islam is not a religion. It's a virulent ideology that demands to get its claws in everything.

Like all religions.
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
Pro: United Ireland, IRA, Allan Ryan, Palestine, Malvinas, Ukraine, Hamas-Fatah cooperation, legalized Gay marriage, Tibetan Resistance, Basque Separatists, OPM.
Neutral: Bathroom segregation.

Anti: English Imperialism, Nazism, communism, Israel, Zionism, Margret thatcher, Martin McGuinness, good Friday agreement.
I am an Irish Atheist and Republican, Not a Dissident stop saying I am.
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~~Proud Gaelige Speaker~~

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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue May 10, 2016 9:05 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:I live in the US too, and I'm glad and praise Allah (SWT) that my parents have told me the hard truth about America and the West. I don't say the pledge nor sing the anthem. And I won't ever until America gets it's ish together.


By all means, feel free to leave.

And leave my people in despair? No. even if I do hate this country, I have to help others see the truth and start change.
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
I'm a New Afrikan Muslim :) https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality Sister nation of El-Amin Caliphate
Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Kubumba Tribe
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Founded: Apr 09, 2015
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue May 10, 2016 9:05 am

Keshokif wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Hard to feel sympathy for that position given the aforementioned human rights abuses.

So, because they have done many attacks while provoked by westerners, it's entirely their faults? If where you live was taken over by another power, and they repressed you for being of the ethnicity you belong to, or your religion, or anything really, you wouldn't want to fight back?

Alvecia wrote:Also can I bring up this point, cause it's been on my mind for a while now, and I know it's gonna be unpopular with many but hear me out.

[rant]
Fucking "Western Imperialism"
I don't buy it.
I mean sure, I get that during the colonial periods we did some fucked up shit, and I get that in the not too distant past there been some other fucked up shit, but really at this point every time I see someone cry "Western Imperialism" or "Western Dominance" or anything like that it pisses me right off.
There comes a point where you have to stop blaming others for your misfortune and start blaming yourself for doing fuck all about it and I think that time has past.
It turned from a legit excuse to something a whiny 20 something might use to justify living in his parents basement.
So I don't know, you can sit there and cry "It's not our fault" or you can stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got.

[/rant]

Ah, this point. I have seen this numerous times.
The problem with it lies in how consistently it fails.
Think about it, most post-colonial countries have terrible economies, a lot of tensions and unrest, and often despotic leaders who oppress their people. Is this a problem of the colonised people? I suppose we shouldn't overlook that possibility. But really, who was it who divided countries up arbitrarily and thereby caused this tension? Who was it who stole resources from these countries? Who was it who often enslaved the people, and even if not that, treated them as second- or third-class citizens? And who is it that now controls the vast majority of the money in the world, and hold the largest armies in the world, and very often find it economically viable to keep such countries in severe poverty to get better deals on valuable resources? I'll give you a hint - it's not the governments of those countries, though they very often work against the people in their own ways.
According to your idea, there should be a number of very prosperous post-colonial countries, since, like you say, the opportunity is there to "stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got". Looking at the Legatum Prosperity Index, which looks at factors such as wealth, economic growth, education, health, personal well-being, and quality of life, there are 7 countries in the top 30 which were colonised by western powers at some point. Now, New Zealand, Canada, Australia and the US don't count, because the majority of the population are descended from those who actually colonised the place. That leaves Singapore, Hong Kong and the UAE. Now, Hong Kong is a very recently de-colonised state, and it is a micro-state which is under the wing of China, so the prosperity can be somewhat attributed to that. Singapore is a bit less recent, but is also a micro-state. Micro-states don't really count, as they have a lot less land to cover, a lot less diversity of people groups, and therefore a lot less post-colonial sentiment. Plus, both Hong Kong and Singapore are fairly Westernised. That simply leaves the UAE. The UAE was never really colonised in a traditional sense. The sheikhs of the seven Emirates of the UAE still held control over the land, even if under a British protectorate. Hence, they themselves were able to reap the benefits of the oil market. Moreover, the bottom 20 are almost entirely populated by post-colonial states from Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and Central America (the one exception being Ethiopia, which was never colonised, but consistently had pressure put on them by nearby Western powers), states which actually do have many abundant natural resources which, if they were truly able to drag themselves from the mire of colonialism, would set them on the paths to becoming near-superpowers. Countries like Nigeria, the DRC, India especially, could easily be superpowers in an equal international community. However, they are not. This suggests some form of colonial effect lingering even today.

Truth!
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
I'm a New Afrikan Muslim :) https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality Sister nation of El-Amin Caliphate
Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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Alvecia
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Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Alvecia » Tue May 10, 2016 9:05 am

Keshokif wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Hard to feel sympathy for that position given the aforementioned human rights abuses.

So, because they have done many attacks while provoked by westerners, it's entirely their faults? If where you live was taken over by another power, and they repressed you for being of the ethnicity you belong to, or your religion, or anything really, you wouldn't want to fight back?

Don't think I really said any of that did I? I just said it's hard to feel sympathetic for human rights abusers. After a point their history is irrelevant.
Keshokif wrote:
Alvecia wrote:
Also can I bring up this point, cause it's been on my mind for a while now, and I know it's gonna be unpopular with many but hear me out.

[rant]
Fucking "Western Imperialism"
I don't buy it.
I mean sure, I get that during the colonial periods we did some fucked up shit, and I get that in the not too distant past there been some other fucked up shit, but really at this point every time I see someone cry "Western Imperialism" or "Western Dominance" or anything like that it pisses me right off.
There comes a point where you have to stop blaming others for your misfortune and start blaming yourself for doing fuck all about it and I think that time has past.
It turned from a legit excuse to something a whiny 20 something might use to justify living in his parents basement.
So I don't know, you can sit there and cry "It's not our fault" or you can stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got.

[/rant]

Ah, this point. I have seen this numerous times.
The problem with it lies in how consistently it fails.
Think about it, most post-colonial countries have terrible economies, a lot of tensions and unrest, and often despotic leaders who oppress their people. Is this a problem of the colonised people? I suppose we shouldn't overlook that possibility. But really, who was it who divided countries up arbitrarily and thereby caused this tension? Who was it who stole resources from these countries? Who was it who often enslaved the people, and even if not that, treated them as second- or third-class citizens? And who is it that now controls the vast majority of the money in the world, and hold the largest armies in the world, and very often find it economically viable to keep such countries in severe poverty to get better deals on valuable resources? I'll give you a hint - it's not the governments of those countries, though they very often work against the people in their own ways.
According to your idea, there should be a number of very prosperous post-colonial countries, since, like you say, the opportunity is there to "stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got". Looking at the Legatum Prosperity Index, which looks at factors such as wealth, economic growth, education, health, personal well-being, and quality of life, there are 7 countries in the top 30 which were colonised by western powers at some point. Now, New Zealand, Canada, Australia and the US don't count, because the majority of the population are descended from those who actually colonised the place. That leaves Singapore, Hong Kong and the UAE. Now, Hong Kong is a very recently de-colonised state, and it is a micro-state which is under the wing of China, so the prosperity can be somewhat attributed to that. Singapore is a bit less recent, but is also a micro-state. Micro-states don't really count, as they have a lot less land to cover, a lot less diversity of people groups, and therefore a lot less post-colonial sentiment. Plus, both Hong Kong and Singapore are fairly Westernised. That simply leaves the UAE. The UAE was never really colonised in a traditional sense. The sheikhs of the seven Emirates of the UAE still held control over the land, even if under a British protectorate. Hence, they themselves were able to reap the benefits of the oil market. Moreover, the bottom 20 are almost entirely populated by post-colonial states from Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and Central America (the one exception being Ethiopia, which was never colonised, but consistently had pressure put on them by nearby Western powers), states which actually do have many abundant natural resources which, if they were truly able to drag themselves from the mire of colonialism, would set them on the paths to becoming near-superpowers. Countries like Nigeria, the DRC, India especially, could easily be superpowers in an equal international community. However, they are not. This suggests some form of colonial effect lingering even today.

Nor do I think I ever denied any of this.
My point was that it has now reached the point wher eI've stopped caring. I really have.
I've had Imperialist thrown in my face so much and so often that I've grown numb. And that's not my fault. That's the fault of the people using it.
Much like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, the Countries That Cried Imperialism have done so to such a degree that all sympathy for the position has been lost, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks this.
Last edited by Alvecia on Tue May 10, 2016 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
British
Atheist
IT Support
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

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Kubumba Tribe
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Posts: 9444
Founded: Apr 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue May 10, 2016 9:06 am

Stormopolis wrote:Hi! Let me say one more thing before I go do something else: islam is not a religion. It's a virulent ideology that demands to get its claws in everything.

I think something that worship a deity is pretty much a religion. And Islam has no claws
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
I'm a New Afrikan Muslim :) https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality Sister nation of El-Amin Caliphate
Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

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New Benian Republic
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Founded: Aug 03, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby New Benian Republic » Tue May 10, 2016 9:07 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Stormopolis wrote:Hi! Let me say one more thing before I go do something else: islam is not a religion. It's a virulent ideology that demands to get its claws in everything.

I think something that worship a deity is pretty much a religion. And Islam has no claws

:eyebrow:
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
Pro: United Ireland, IRA, Allan Ryan, Palestine, Malvinas, Ukraine, Hamas-Fatah cooperation, legalized Gay marriage, Tibetan Resistance, Basque Separatists, OPM.
Neutral: Bathroom segregation.

Anti: English Imperialism, Nazism, communism, Israel, Zionism, Margret thatcher, Martin McGuinness, good Friday agreement.
I am an Irish Atheist and Republican, Not a Dissident stop saying I am.
RIP Óglach Alan Ryan

~~Proud Gaelige Speaker~~

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Washington Resistance Army
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Posts: 53341
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue May 10, 2016 9:07 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
By all means, feel free to leave.

And leave my people in despair? No. even if I do hate this country, I have to help others see the truth and start change.


Your people aren't in despair, if you really hate this country put your money where your mouth is and get out. I'm not even saying that to be mean, but it just bothers me when people rant about how evil the western imperialists are while they've lived their whole lives in the west and have no intentions on leaving. It would be silly if it wasn't so stupid.
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Kubumba Tribe
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Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue May 10, 2016 9:08 am

Alvecia wrote:
Keshokif wrote:So, because they have done many attacks while provoked by westerners, it's entirely their faults? If where you live was taken over by another power, and they repressed you for being of the ethnicity you belong to, or your religion, or anything really, you wouldn't want to fight back?

Don't think I really said any of that did I? I just said it's hard to feel sympathetic for human rights abusers. After a point their history is irrelevant.
Keshokif wrote:
Ah, this point. I have seen this numerous times.
The problem with it lies in how consistently it fails.
Think about it, most post-colonial countries have terrible economies, a lot of tensions and unrest, and often despotic leaders who oppress their people. Is this a problem of the colonised people? I suppose we shouldn't overlook that possibility. But really, who was it who divided countries up arbitrarily and thereby caused this tension? Who was it who stole resources from these countries? Who was it who often enslaved the people, and even if not that, treated them as second- or third-class citizens? And who is it that now controls the vast majority of the money in the world, and hold the largest armies in the world, and very often find it economically viable to keep such countries in severe poverty to get better deals on valuable resources? I'll give you a hint - it's not the governments of those countries, though they very often work against the people in their own ways.
According to your idea, there should be a number of very prosperous post-colonial countries, since, like you say, the opportunity is there to "stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got". Looking at the Legatum Prosperity Index, which looks at factors such as wealth, economic growth, education, health, personal well-being, and quality of life, there are 7 countries in the top 30 which were colonised by western powers at some point. Now, New Zealand, Canada, Australia and the US don't count, because the majority of the population are descended from those who actually colonised the place. That leaves Singapore, Hong Kong and the UAE. Now, Hong Kong is a very recently de-colonised state, and it is a micro-state which is under the wing of China, so the prosperity can be somewhat attributed to that. Singapore is a bit less recent, but is also a micro-state. Micro-states don't really count, as they have a lot less land to cover, a lot less diversity of people groups, and therefore a lot less post-colonial sentiment. Plus, both Hong Kong and Singapore are fairly Westernised. That simply leaves the UAE. The UAE was never really colonised in a traditional sense. The sheikhs of the seven Emirates of the UAE still held control over the land, even if under a British protectorate. Hence, they themselves were able to reap the benefits of the oil market. Moreover, the bottom 20 are almost entirely populated by post-colonial states from Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and Central America (the one exception being Ethiopia, which was never colonised, but consistently had pressure put on them by nearby Western powers), states which actually do have many abundant natural resources which, if they were truly able to drag themselves from the mire of colonialism, would set them on the paths to becoming near-superpowers. Countries like Nigeria, the DRC, India especially, could easily be superpowers in an equal international community. However, they are not. This suggests some form of colonial effect lingering even today.

Nor do I think I ever denied any of this.
My point was that it has now reached the point wher eI've stopped caring. I really have.
I've had Imperialist thrown in my face so much and so often that I've grown numb. And that's not my fault. That's the fault of the people using it.
Much like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, the Countries That Cried Imperialism have done so to such a degree that all sympathy for the position has been lost, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

The reason sympathy's been lost is because all these Western countries care about is money. Which is also what they brainwash their citizens with. Money, power, privilege, that's the game of the West.
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
I'm a New Afrikan Muslim :) https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality Sister nation of El-Amin Caliphate
Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

User avatar
Kubumba Tribe
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9444
Founded: Apr 09, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Kubumba Tribe » Tue May 10, 2016 9:09 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Kubumba Tribe wrote:And leave my people in despair? No. even if I do hate this country, I have to help others see the truth and start change.


Your people aren't in despair, if you really hate this country put your money where your mouth is and get out. I'm not even saying that to be mean, but it just bothers me when people rant about how evil the western imperialists are while they've lived their whole lives in the west and have no intentions on leaving. It would be silly if it wasn't so stupid.

My people aren't oppressed, marginalized, subjugated to gentrification, moved to ghettos, enslaved?
Pro: (Pan-)Islamism--Palestine--RBG--Choice to an extent--Giving land back to Native Americans--East--Afrika--etc.
Anti: US gov--West gov--Capitalism--Imperialism/Colonialism--Racism/White Supremacy--Secularism getting into everything--Western 'intervention' in the East--Zionism--etc.
I'm a New Afrikan Muslim :) https://www.16personalities.com/isfj-personality Sister nation of El-Amin Caliphate
Farnhamia wrote:A word of advice from your friendly neighborhood Mod, be careful how you use "kafir." It's derogatory usage by some people can get you in trouble unless you are very careful in setting the context for it's use.

This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't punish anyone who uses kafir.

User avatar
New Benian Republic
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1930
Founded: Aug 03, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby New Benian Republic » Tue May 10, 2016 9:09 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Don't think I really said any of that did I? I just said it's hard to feel sympathetic for human rights abusers. After a point their history is irrelevant.

Nor do I think I ever denied any of this.
My point was that it has now reached the point wher eI've stopped caring. I really have.
I've had Imperialist thrown in my face so much and so often that I've grown numb. And that's not my fault. That's the fault of the people using it.
Much like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, the Countries That Cried Imperialism have done so to such a degree that all sympathy for the position has been lost, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

The reason sympathy's been lost is because all these Western countries care about is money. Which is also what they brainwash their citizens with. Money, power, privilege, that's the game of the West.

In all fairness and I feel odd for standing up for the imperialists but places like the UAE seem pretty money oriented almost more than most western countries.
~~~Support Sinn Féinn I guess~~~

~Like all true Irishmen I have no ancestors. I was birthed from Ireland's soil itself, fully formed, like a potato.~
Pro: United Ireland, IRA, Allan Ryan, Palestine, Malvinas, Ukraine, Hamas-Fatah cooperation, legalized Gay marriage, Tibetan Resistance, Basque Separatists, OPM.
Neutral: Bathroom segregation.

Anti: English Imperialism, Nazism, communism, Israel, Zionism, Margret thatcher, Martin McGuinness, good Friday agreement.
I am an Irish Atheist and Republican, Not a Dissident stop saying I am.
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Adirondack Commonwealth
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 119
Founded: Apr 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Adirondack Commonwealth » Tue May 10, 2016 9:10 am

Without the perpetrator in custody I don't think we can really say anything.
Monarchy unites, Republicanism divides.

User avatar
Purple Robed Empire
Attaché
 
Posts: 82
Founded: May 02, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Purple Robed Empire » Tue May 10, 2016 9:11 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Alvecia wrote:If you think you can't trust them then don't expect pay back.
Either you'll accept it or you won't.

I guess you're right.


Then quit whining! What has been done can't be undone, life is not and never has been fair. If you want to go back far enough Europe was as exploited by Asians and North Africans as the other way around. The Mongols, the Turks, the Huns etc. all did their share of damage.

Imperialism is not exclusively European. It was the most wide spread at its height merely because it was the most recent and thus had the best technology to do so. If they had technology the Europeans had you can damn well bet the Mongols would have conquered areas in the Americas or any other region they couldn't be stopped.

If at the height of the Arab Conquests the Moslems were able to conquer Europe they would have. They were in Spain for centuries even though the locals didn't want them. The Ottomans kicked off the Crusades by invading the Roman Empire . They also invaded up to the gates of Vienna.

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Keshokif
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 390
Founded: Apr 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Keshokif » Tue May 10, 2016 9:11 am

Stormopolis wrote:Hi! Let me say one more thing before I go do something else: islam is not a religion. It's a virulent ideology that demands to get its claws in everything.

Uh, no. Do you have any proof for your claims?
Let me guess - no.
Islam is a religion. It has been fanaticised by the West and somewhat hijacked by its fanatics to expand their own ends. These fanatics do not care whether you are a Muslim or a Christian, a white person or a coloured one. They attack everyone. But it is a religion.
Yes, Islam has its faults as a religion, and any who read it as complete truth are just as wrong as those who read the Bible as complete truth. But its faults are no worse that Christianity's, and we don't oppress them because of their bigoted book.
The Federal Republic of Keshokif
Acca Kassi Urri
Justice Above Law
Factbook is love, factbook is life...
INTP, Communist, Linguist

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53341
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue May 10, 2016 9:12 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Your people aren't in despair, if you really hate this country put your money where your mouth is and get out. I'm not even saying that to be mean, but it just bothers me when people rant about how evil the western imperialists are while they've lived their whole lives in the west and have no intentions on leaving. It would be silly if it wasn't so stupid.

My people aren't oppressed, marginalized, subjugated to gentrification, moved to ghettos, enslaved?


I'm pretty sure yeah.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

User avatar
Alvecia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19942
Founded: Aug 17, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Alvecia » Tue May 10, 2016 9:13 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Don't think I really said any of that did I? I just said it's hard to feel sympathetic for human rights abusers. After a point their history is irrelevant.

Nor do I think I ever denied any of this.
My point was that it has now reached the point wher eI've stopped caring. I really have.
I've had Imperialist thrown in my face so much and so often that I've grown numb. And that's not my fault. That's the fault of the people using it.
Much like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, the Countries That Cried Imperialism have done so to such a degree that all sympathy for the position has been lost, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

The reason sympathy's been lost is because all these Western countries care about is money. Which is also what they brainwash their citizens with. Money, power, privilege, that's the game of the West.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.
British
Atheist
IT Support
That there is no exception to the rule "There is an exception to every rule" is the exception that proves the rule.
---
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll stop asking you to catch his fish.
That's not happening
That shouldn't be happening
Why is that happening?
That's why it's happening?
How has this ever worked?

User avatar
Braecland
Diplomat
 
Posts: 726
Founded: Apr 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Braecland » Tue May 10, 2016 9:14 am

Zeinbrad wrote:
Braecland wrote:He was shouting "Allahu Akbar!" while stabbing people with a knife, clearly a Christian extremist

Pretty much everyone can yells Allahu Ackbar.

Waste of a few posts right here

Obligatory pro/anti stuff:
PRO: Individualism, classical liberalism, free market capitalism, libertarianism, secularism, egalitarianism, meritocracy, Royalism, Euroscepticism, freedom of expression, British values, MLK, Israel, Russia(not in Ukraine), Syria, Kurdistan, YPG, Peshmerga

ANTI: Collectivism, communism, socialism, Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, Trotskyism, syndicalism, anarchism, racism, religious fundamentalism(mainly Islamic), identity politics, social engineering, SJWs, feminism, BLM, Antifa, EU, multiculturalism, mass immigration, Turkey, Saudi-Arabia, Iran, FSA, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Anime

F L A G ╾╋╾ M A K E R

User avatar
Purple Robed Empire
Attaché
 
Posts: 82
Founded: May 02, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Purple Robed Empire » Tue May 10, 2016 9:15 am

Kubumba Tribe wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Your people aren't in despair, if you really hate this country put your money where your mouth is and get out. I'm not even saying that to be mean, but it just bothers me when people rant about how evil the western imperialists are while they've lived their whole lives in the west and have no intentions on leaving. It would be silly if it wasn't so stupid.

My people aren't oppressed, marginalized, subjugated to gentrification, moved to ghettos, enslaved?


If they are living in a Western country they sure as hell aren't being enslaved legally nor are anti-slavery laws being ignored. You can't say the same in Islamic countries where they are ignored in places.

User avatar
Keshokif
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 390
Founded: Apr 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Keshokif » Tue May 10, 2016 9:16 am

Alvecia wrote:
Keshokif wrote:So, because they have done many attacks while provoked by westerners, it's entirely their faults? If where you live was taken over by another power, and they repressed you for being of the ethnicity you belong to, or your religion, or anything really, you wouldn't want to fight back?

Don't think I really said any of that did I? I just said it's hard to feel sympathetic for human rights abusers. After a point their history is irrelevant.

I believe I misread your point. Apologies on that front.
Alvecia wrote:
Keshokif wrote:
Ah, this point. I have seen this numerous times.
The problem with it lies in how consistently it fails.
Think about it, most post-colonial countries have terrible economies, a lot of tensions and unrest, and often despotic leaders who oppress their people. Is this a problem of the colonised people? I suppose we shouldn't overlook that possibility. But really, who was it who divided countries up arbitrarily and thereby caused this tension? Who was it who stole resources from these countries? Who was it who often enslaved the people, and even if not that, treated them as second- or third-class citizens? And who is it that now controls the vast majority of the money in the world, and hold the largest armies in the world, and very often find it economically viable to keep such countries in severe poverty to get better deals on valuable resources? I'll give you a hint - it's not the governments of those countries, though they very often work against the people in their own ways.
According to your idea, there should be a number of very prosperous post-colonial countries, since, like you say, the opportunity is there to "stand up, dust yourself off and start making the most of what you've got". Looking at the Legatum Prosperity Index, which looks at factors such as wealth, economic growth, education, health, personal well-being, and quality of life, there are 7 countries in the top 30 which were colonised by western powers at some point. Now, New Zealand, Canada, Australia and the US don't count, because the majority of the population are descended from those who actually colonised the place. That leaves Singapore, Hong Kong and the UAE. Now, Hong Kong is a very recently de-colonised state, and it is a micro-state which is under the wing of China, so the prosperity can be somewhat attributed to that. Singapore is a bit less recent, but is also a micro-state. Micro-states don't really count, as they have a lot less land to cover, a lot less diversity of people groups, and therefore a lot less post-colonial sentiment. Plus, both Hong Kong and Singapore are fairly Westernised. That simply leaves the UAE. The UAE was never really colonised in a traditional sense. The sheikhs of the seven Emirates of the UAE still held control over the land, even if under a British protectorate. Hence, they themselves were able to reap the benefits of the oil market. Moreover, the bottom 20 are almost entirely populated by post-colonial states from Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia and Central America (the one exception being Ethiopia, which was never colonised, but consistently had pressure put on them by nearby Western powers), states which actually do have many abundant natural resources which, if they were truly able to drag themselves from the mire of colonialism, would set them on the paths to becoming near-superpowers. Countries like Nigeria, the DRC, India especially, could easily be superpowers in an equal international community. However, they are not. This suggests some form of colonial effect lingering even today.

Nor do I think I ever denied any of this.
My point was that it has now reached the point wher eI've stopped caring. I really have.
I've had Imperialist thrown in my face so much and so often that I've grown numb. And that's not my fault. That's the fault of the people using it.
Much like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, the Countries That Cried Imperialism have done so to such a degree that all sympathy for the position has been lost, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

I never said you denied it. I simply think that you are overlooking it if you are getting annoyed by people saying 'imperialism'.
Not only was imperialism a real issue that has happened in the past, and yes, perhaps the word is used so often that it has lost its sting, but it is an issue that continues to happen, and until justice is done for that, the human race cannot advance past a new iPhone with a couple o'extra features every month.
The Federal Republic of Keshokif
Acca Kassi Urri
Justice Above Law
Factbook is love, factbook is life...
INTP, Communist, Linguist

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