US General Election Megathread: Trump vs Clinton

[Ostroeuropa]

For the globe? It isn't.
For the west?

Because we can get a better deal on our trading.

The third world will get fucked from it, but I don't really care. If they go democratic and liberal i'll give a fuck about them, I don't see why we should fund the decline of Humanities only hope for a bright future to fund the rise of some backwards tyrannical states.

Global GDP would drop, but the west would be able to exploit tyrannies better from it instead of corporations demanding western free persons compete with sentient objects owned by tyrants.

Translation: I've got mine, fuck dem dirty brown people. Its not even much of a translation, since you're practically throwing it out there.

Also, the fact that you describe people in third world countries as "objects"... yeah.

Oh, and not that I expect this to register, but third world and dictatorship are not synonymous terms.

Jesus, is their anything about your beliefs that isn't utterly loathsome and poisonous to human dignity and liberty?

It's more "I've got mine, and nobody can compete with a slave treated like an object or a serf. Your presence in the global economy is a burden to all of us, so we should have a seperate economy that excludes you and your wage depressing existence."

They are objects. That's their essential legal status in the countries they occupy. I don't like it any more than you do.

I'm more than happy to have free trade agreements with third world democracies that respect human rights.

Why should the entire western world and all its citizens have to put up with Chinese wage competition?
Yeh, it's fuck you i've got mine.
But not "Fuck you chinese worker."
it's
"Fuck you Chinese factory owner ruthlessly exploiting your worker for slave wages no free person can compete with, i've got mine."

[Kelinfort]

"Fuck you, I got mine"

No kelinfort.
"Fuck you, we have all the libraries and your leader burns books. We need to keep them open."

Why should the west make itself poorer for these people?

We benefit from trade, any Econ 101 lesson would teach you that. Having an absolute advantage in the preouction of goods, for exmaple, does not mean we shouldn't trade. So no, we're not worse off.

Second, I find it funny I, the evil neoliberal, act more like a humanitarian who supports global development and humanitarian aid rather than the supposed crusader of justice.

[Ostroeuropa]

No kelinfort.
"Fuck you, we have all the libraries and your leader burns books. We need to keep them open."

Why should the west make itself poorer for these people?

We benefit from trade, any Econ 101 lesson would teach you that. Having an absolute advantage in the preouction of goods, for exmaple, does not mean we shouldn't trade. So no, we're not worse off.

Second, I find it funny I, the evil neoliberal, act more like a humanitarian who supports global development and humanitarian aid rather than the supposed crusader of justice.

"We." The majority of working class people don't seem to agree, and the working class are the majority.

[Kelinfort]

We benefit from trade, any Econ 101 lesson would teach you that. Having an absolute advantage in the preouction of goods, for exmaple, does not mean we shouldn't trade. So no, we're not worse off.

Second, I find it funny I, the evil neoliberal, act more like a humanitarian who supports global development and humanitarian aid rather than the supposed crusader of justice.

"We."

Yes, we. All benefit from lower prices for goods and in addition, people I the third world benefit from higher living standards in the long run.

Do you approve or disapprove President Obama's actions in opening trade and relations with Cuba?

[Ostroeuropa]

"We."

Yes, we. All benefit from lower prices for goods and in addition, people I the third world benefit from higher living standards in the long run.

Do you approve or disapprove President Obama's actions in opening trade and relations with Cuba?

The working classes seem to disagree.

With Cuba?
I approve. A straight embargo is unseemly anyway, tariffs would be preferable. Take the wages and enforce a tariff so that all countries pay a fee equivalent to the amount it would cost for one of your workers to do all the work on it.

[Utceforp]

"Fuck you, I got mine"

No kelinfort.
"Fuck you, we have all the libraries and your leader burns books. We need to keep them open."

Why should the west make itself poorer for these people?

Because dictatorships develop in poor and war-torn countries rather than prosperous ones? Because most of the population of third-world countries would rather not live under dictators? Prosperity leads to the development of political thought and ultimately democracy, being condemned and shunned by rich countries for no particular reason other than selfishness leads to extremism. Now if you're going to ask "why should we help these people?", then we're back at "fuck you, I got mine" reasoning.

[Ostroeuropa]

No kelinfort.
"Fuck you, we have all the libraries and your leader burns books. We need to keep them open."

Why should the west make itself poorer for these people?

Because dictatorships develop in poor and war-torn countries rather than prosperous ones? Because most of the population of third-world countries would rather not live under dictators? Prosperity leads to the development of political thought and ultimately democracy, being condemned and shunned by rich countries for no particular reason other than selfishness leads to extremism. Now if you're going to ask "why should we help these people?", then we're back at "fuck you, I got mine" reasoning.

China disproves your assertion. I understand this was the common theory a few decades ago, but we have no excuse to keep believing it. Prosperity does not lead to democracy and human rights. The reason is to cripple them and weaken them, to grind them into the dirt until they can be swatted aside, annexed or have a puppet state put in place, and raised into democratic and humanist values.

[The Romulan Republic]

Translation: I've got mine, fuck dem dirty brown people. Its not even much of a translation, since you're practically throwing it out there.

Also, the fact that you describe people in third world countries as "objects"... yeah.

Oh, and not that I expect this to register, but third world and dictatorship are not synonymous terms.

Jesus, is their anything about your beliefs that isn't utterly loathsome and poisonous to human dignity and liberty?

It's more "I've got mine, and nobody can compete with a slave treated like an object or a serf. Your presence in the global economy is a burden to all of us, so we should have a seperate economy that excludes you and your wage depressing existence."

They are objects. That's their essential legal status in the countries they occupy. I don't like it any more than you do.

I'm more than happy to have free trade agreements with third world democracies that respect human rights.

Why should the entire western world and all its citizens have to put up with Chinese wage competition?
Yeh, it's fuck you i've got mine.
But not "Fuck you chinese worker."
it's
"Fuck you Chinese factory owner ruthlessly exploiting your worker for slave wages no free person can compete with, i've got mine."

I'm not sure cutting off trade, even if we could do it without crashing the economy, would help them or us.

Don't sanctions tend to just hurt the ordinary people, more than the regimes?

[Ostroeuropa]

It's more "I've got mine, and nobody can compete with a slave treated like an object or a serf. Your presence in the global economy is a burden to all of us, so we should have a seperate economy that excludes you and your wage depressing existence."

They are objects. That's their essential legal status in the countries they occupy. I don't like it any more than you do.

I'm more than happy to have free trade agreements with third world democracies that respect human rights.

Why should the entire western world and all its citizens have to put up with Chinese wage competition?
Yeh, it's fuck you i've got mine.
But not "Fuck you chinese worker."
it's
"Fuck you Chinese factory owner ruthlessly exploiting your worker for slave wages no free person can compete with, i've got mine."

I'm not sure cutting off trade, even if we could do it without crashing the economy, would help them or us.

Don't sanctions tend to just hurt the ordinary people, more than the regimes?

I've never suggested cutting off trade. Nor has Trump. Tariffs.

Just make it so that if an American earns 10 bucks an hour and a Chinese person earns 1, anything they sell gets a 9 buck tariff on it if it was produced in an hour.
Force them to fork over the amount they save on exploiting their workers.
Perhaps higher, because of environmental regulations.

[Kelinfort]

Yes, we. All benefit from lower prices for goods and in addition, people I the third world benefit from higher living standards in the long run.

Do you approve or disapprove President Obama's actions in opening trade and relations with Cuba?

The working classes seem to disagree.

With Cuba?
I approve. A straight embargo is unseemly anyway, tariffs would be preferable. Take the wages and enforce a tariff so that all countries pay a fee equivalent to the amount it would cost for one of your workers to do all the work on it.

There needs to be more programs to help those displaced, but again, this isn't the entire working class nor is it all accross the Western world. There are places worse than others because there have been no measures to help those displaced. Places like Washington, Oregon, and Belgium have fared a lot better than the Midlands or Ohio.

Why do you approve? You oppose trade with dictatorships.

[Ostroeuropa]

The working classes seem to disagree.

With Cuba?
I approve. A straight embargo is unseemly anyway, tariffs would be preferable. Take the wages and enforce a tariff so that all countries pay a fee equivalent to the amount it would cost for one of your workers to do all the work on it.

There needs to be more programs to help those displaced, but again, this isn't the entire working class nor is it all accross the Western world. There are places worse than others because there have been no measures to help those displaced. Places like Washington, Oregon, and Belgium have fared a lot better than the Midlands or Ohio.

Why do you approve? You oppose trade with dictatorships.

I oppose FREE trade with dictatorships, as our working classes cannot compete with the artificially depressed wages of theirs.

[Kelinfort]

There needs to be more programs to help those displaced, but again, this isn't the entire working class nor is it all accross the Western world. There are places worse than others because there have been no measures to help those displaced. Places like Washington, Oregon, and Belgium have fared a lot better than the Midlands or Ohio.

Why do you approve? You oppose trade with dictatorships.

I oppose FREE trade with dictatorships, as our working classes cannot compete with the artificially depressed wages of theirs.

That makes no sense. A third world democracy will still have far lower wages than Western democracies. Being a dictatorship doesn't change that.

[Ostroeuropa]

I oppose FREE trade with dictatorships, as our working classes cannot compete with the artificially depressed wages of theirs.

That makes no sense. A third world democracy will still have far lower wages than Western democracies. Being a dictatorship doesn't change that.

I'm largely fine with that because developing the democracies economy will raise their wages fairly quickly, whereas a dictatorship that's not going to be the case necessarily. I'd also be fine with more specific tariffs that target the wages instead of generalizing to "democracy V dictatorship."

[Kelinfort]

That makes no sense. A third world democracy will still have far lower wages than Western democracies. Being a dictatorship doesn't change that.

I'm largely fine with that because developing the democracies economy will raise their wages fairly quickly, whereas a dictatorship that's not going to be the case necessarily. I'd also be fine with more specific tariffs that target the wages instead of generalizing to "democracy V dictatorship."

How could you possibly believe that? India has been a democracy for decades and its wages have yet to converge with any Western nation.

You could use the examples of Ghana or Mauritius as well. I don't see how you found this trend.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm largely fine with that because developing the democracies economy will raise their wages fairly quickly, whereas a dictatorship that's not going to be the case necessarily. I'd also be fine with more specific tariffs that target the wages instead of generalizing to "democracy V dictatorship."

How could you possibly believe that? India has been a democracy for decades and its wages have yet to converge with any Western nation.

You could use the examples of Ghana or Mauritius as well. I don't see how you found this trend.

The key is that the Indian workers aren't being exploited. They can vote themselves better conditions should they feel so inclined, and i'm confident they will, eventually.

[Spiffier]

"We."

Yes, we. All benefit from lower prices for goods and in addition, people I the third world benefit from higher living standards in the long run.

Do you approve or disapprove President Obama's actions in opening trade and relations with Cuba?

Lower prices for stuff I don't need while necessities kill me. Because fewer jobs here means more competition for jobs, means a bigger supply of workers relative to demand, means lower wages, means lower quality of life.

[Kelinfort]

How could you possibly believe that? India has been a democracy for decades and its wages have yet to converge with any Western nation.

You could use the examples of Ghana or Mauritius as well. I don't see how you found this trend.

The key is that the Indian workers aren't being exploited. They can vote themselves better conditions should they feel so inclined, and i'm confident they will, eventually.

Alright, but I think you've backtracked quite a way from your initial position.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm not sure cutting off trade, even if we could do it without crashing the economy, would help them or us.

Don't sanctions tend to just hurt the ordinary people, more than the regimes?

I've never suggested cutting off trade. Nor has Trump. Tariffs.

Just make it so that if an American earns 10 bucks an hour and a Chinese person earns 1, anything they sell gets a 9 buck tariff on it if it was produced in an hour.
Force them to fork over the amount they save on exploiting their workers.
Perhaps higher, because of environmental regulations.

Maybe its not outright stopping trade, but isn't the whole point of tariffs in this context to penalize and thereby discourage trade?

[Kelinfort]

I've never suggested cutting off trade. Nor has Trump. Tariffs.

Just make it so that if an American earns 10 bucks an hour and a Chinese person earns 1, anything they sell gets a 9 buck tariff on it if it was produced in an hour.
Force them to fork over the amount they save on exploiting their workers.
Perhaps higher, because of environmental regulations.

Maybe its not outright stopping trade, but isn't the whole point of tariffs in this context to penalize and thereby discourage trade?

Indeed.

Not to mention, the only people who benefit from tariffs are business owners.

[Othelos]

I would like to see a Trump victory. America needs it.

Once again, you take the opposite point of view to be edgy.

[Ostroeuropa]

The key is that the Indian workers aren't being exploited. They can vote themselves better conditions should they feel so inclined, and i'm confident they will, eventually.

Alright, but I think you've backtracked quite a way from your initial position.

No, not really, you just jumped to conclusions.

Maybe its not outright stopping trade, but isn't the whole point of tariffs in this context to penalize and thereby discourage trade?

Indeed.

Not to mention, the only people who benefit from tariffs are business owners.

Local ones who employ your people, yeh.

[Kelinfort]

Alright, but I think you've backtracked quite a way from your initial position.

No, not really, you just jumped to conclusions.

Indeed.

Not to mention, the only people who benefit from tariffs are business owners.

Local ones who employ your people, yeh.

"Local"

That charge higher prices that hurt other families in the service industry while paying their workers low wages.

No, you clearly have backtracked your position, moving from little to no sympathy for third world workers to a much more nuanced tone. You keep doing this in every other argument, casting your net as far as possible and reeling it back progressively.

[Spiffier]

No, not really, you just jumped to conclusions.




Local ones who employ your people, yeh.

"Local"

That charge higher prices that hurt other families in the service industry while paying their workers low wages.

No, you clearly have backtracked your position, moving from little to no sympathy for third world workers to a much more nuanced tone. You keep doing this in every other argument, casting your net as far as possible and reeling it back progressively.

If there is a higher demand for jobs, they will actually pay their workers higher wages. There are only two ways to make wages go up: legislate it, or create the demand for work.

[Neu Leonstein]

I oppose FREE trade with dictatorships, as our working classes cannot compete with the artificially depressed wages of theirs.

Artificially depressed wages? What's artificial about it?

I mean, yeah, there are no independent labour unions in China. But that's just about it. Otherwise the labour market is substantially free these days in the mainland. People can take any job they want (in fact, the government if anything provides disincentives to people moving to the cities for manufacturing jobs because it still makes it extremely hard to get a hukou for those cities) and, other than a fairly European-style set of protections and non-salary perks for permanent employees of big corporations, they can be hired and fired freely by their employers too.

And I haven't seen anyone who has studied the issue conclude that the fact that workers get lower average salaries in China than in the US the fault of the government. China is a far poorer country, with lower living expenses, lower productivity and plenty of people whose alternative in the countryside is basically being a farmhand with little chance of owning their own plot. Those are structural differences that take a long time to go away. But what's artificial about them?

And if they're not artificial, then what exactly do you expect the Chinese government to do about them?

[Morgantown West Virginia]

People will vote Trump to stop Hillary
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-e ... SKCN0XX06E