Why do you call yourself an anti-feminist?

[The New Sea Territory]

Except: NO. IT. ISN'T.

The equivalent in this scenario would be LGBT+ advocates then going out of their way to suppress evidence of those problems because it challenges their preconceptions.

"Evidence", coming from reactionaries?

Fine, it's not relevant to LGBT+ rights, fine they don't have to do anything about them (although the obvious problem with this line of argument is if these hypothetical LGBT+ types are going to be narcissistic fucktards, why should anyone outside of this demographic even care about LGBT+ issues if these narcissists lack the emotional capacity to care about issues outside their own demographic?), but in this scenario they certainly shouldn't be going out of their way to actually suppress it because it goes against their narrative.

That's not the meaning of what I said at all, but whatever.

This is a flat out lie.

I have eyes, and ears. I've listened to MRAs. They are the equivalent of white student unions and straight pride groups.

For someone who claims to be antifacist, you do sure seem to be acting authoritarian in dictating (without any evidence) what does or doesn't merit a movement.

"Evidence" this, "evidence" that. You keep using that word, yet never provide any of your own, outside made up statistics and the words of sheltered Youtubers.

[Galloism]

"Evidence" this, "evidence" that. You keep using that word, yet never provide any of your own, outside made up statistics and the words of sheltered Youtubers.

Like all 200+ studies with made up statistics showing women commit domestic violence at rates comparable to men, for instance.

[The New Sea Territory]

People who claim to be egalitarians but not anti-feminists aren't sexists, they're merely impotent.

What never ceases to amaze me is that all these "egalitarian" anti-feminists are usually not egalitarian in any other sense of the word (for example, being a socialist). They just like the word "egalitarian", but want to disconnect from any meaningful movement and use it as a label for their own reactionary nonsense.

Most "egalitarians" are usually right-leaning liberals.

[Ostroeuropa]

"Evidence" this, "evidence" that. You keep using that word, yet never provide any of your own, outside made up statistics and the words of sheltered Youtubers.

Or how about courts ruling that one of the most recent feminist idea and campaigns violates the constitutional rights of male students?

http://www.the-american-interest.com/20 ... oo-courts/

[Ostroeuropa]

People who claim to be egalitarians but not anti-feminists aren't sexists, they're merely impotent.

What never ceases to amaze me is that all these "egalitarian" anti-feminists are usually not egalitarian in any other sense of the word (for example, being a socialist). They just like the word "egalitarian", but want to disconnect from any meaningful movement and use it as a label for their own reactionary nonsense.

Most "egalitarians" are usually right-leaning liberals.

That's pretty funny, considering Paul Elam, who anti-MRAs love to claim represents us, has been repeatedly decrying capitalism and has gotten into crap over it for dividing the movement. (Those who agree with him V those who agree with capitalism.)
The movement is half libertarian, half left of centre (Up to and including the occasional communist.). We've recently had a surge of trump supporters join as well.

[Galloism]

What never ceases to amaze me is that all these "egalitarian" anti-feminists are usually not egalitarian in any other sense of the word (for example, being a socialist). They just like the word "egalitarian", but want to disconnect from any meaningful movement and use it as a label for their own reactionary nonsense.

Most "egalitarians" are usually right-leaning liberals.

That's pretty funny, considering Paul Elam, who anti-MRAs love to claim represents us, has been repeatedly decrying capitalism and has gotten into crap over it for dividing the movement. (Those who agree with him V those who agree with capitalism.)
The movement is half libertarian, half left of centre (Up to and including the occasional communist.). We've recently had a surge of trump supporters join as well.

You should find that last part concerning, but you won't.

[Ostroeuropa]

That's pretty funny, considering Paul Elam, who anti-MRAs love to claim represents us, has been repeatedly decrying capitalism and has gotten into crap over it for dividing the movement. (Those who agree with him V those who agree with capitalism.)
The movement is half libertarian, half left of centre (Up to and including the occasional communist.). We've recently had a surge of trump supporters join as well.

You should find that last part concerning, but you won't.

Allies are allies. We're a broad tent.

[New Edom]

You forgot the /sarcasm tag, Ostro.

So you don't actually have an argument beyond snark, good to know.

Utterly amazing. Every now and then someone like you comes along and basically spreaeds a bunch of ridiculous platitudes that are untrue. Like this is just some airy fairy theory floating in the ether and everyone is an idiot but you

Tell this to people who lose their jobs, get humiliated in public, lose their opportunities in higher education, lose custody of children, are profiled as rapists or molesters, tell this to people who have to deal with policies created due to some ideology. You'd just ignore it, right?

"Oh well, I lost my job and was hounded out of my town, but I will not identify what did it, I'll just let it roll off my back." I didn't realize I was dealing with a zen monk. You have no help, you have no solution. But enjoy feeling superior to everyone else. meantime, I will actually be conerned with the civil rights and freedoms of other people.

"Just get over it" applies to rape victims too, but curiously it's never used there.

It's also something people say to bullies when they've never been seriously bullied. It's unhelpful, indifferent.

[Ancient Pluto]

Am I the only one who's starting to feel like Ostro sounds like an inverse Chessmistress?

snap

The topic is important. People are trying to figure out how things work. For people who have no issues with gender roles, who have never had any issues with egalitarianism, bully for them. This is the equivalent of people who have a great metabolism and athletic by nature hating that people feel a need to talk about fitness. Or people who don't like some movies complaining that others do like them. Or people who are great at studying dismissing different schools of aproach to study. If you're not interested, why don't you focus on stuff you're interested in?

I do agree that the topic is important (if the topic is equality), but that doesn't make it any less infuriating to see people go about in the most thickheaded, semantic way possible. In fact, the importance of feminist/egalitarianism/ham-sandwichism is precisely why people bitching about how feminism and egalitarian are or aren't the same thing pisses me off.

Labeling is part of a number of academic disciplines which enable you to identify things. While it is important to be open minded, it is more important to be able to clearly identify what people are talking about. Things like freedom and equality are values; how someone applies them is often ideological, and that is where the words for those identifications becomes important.

No... no it's not more important.

It's that very shorthand that has LEAD to this. Words only mean what the listeners think they mean. So quite bluntly, no we don't need a clear rapid shorthand. In fact we need to get RID of the clear rapid shorthand and encourage actual discussion rather than just people throwing shitfits because their team lost.

It's not a game. We have goals and this insistence on treating ideas to solve the problems on the way to those goals like teams in a football game is harming people.

You're awesome too.

That's pretty funny, considering Paul Elam, who anti-MRAs love to claim represents us, has been repeatedly decrying capitalism and has gotten into crap over it for dividing the movement. (Those who agree with him V those who agree with capitalism.)
The movement is half libertarian, half left of centre (Up to and including the occasional communist.). We've recently had a surge of trump supporters join as well.

You should find that last part concerning, but you won't.

Of course he doesn't find that last part concerning. The guy fucking hates Clinton.

[New Edom]

It's foolish to attack Ostro's beliefs rather than his actual facts and information. Who cares what he believes? In a democracy, that should not mater. What should matter are actual shared values--justice, ,peaceful resolution of conflict, value of human life, ,fairnes, honesty. Those are values. Political views are just how you believe those values should be acted upon in the political sphere.

Feminists generally have made it very clear that hey do not share those values. Their values are entirely about how women feel about things, that majority. How else could someone seriously compare the life of the average woman living in Toronto with the life of the average woman living in some civil war torn hellhole?

Most people in the West are brought up to value women's lives--contrary to feminist teachings. The problem with this is that women are generally saying they want equality. That's fair. But then they get no more chivalry. That means being called on your bullshit. People need to amke up their minds. If they want to protect women, great let's have chivalry back. But if not then women should be no more protected than men are, should face the same challenges and the same possibility of success or failure. That is a standard I intend to insist on. At one time, that was generally believed to be what feminism stood for. Now such feminists are mostly middle aged to old aged women who are marginalized as others demand a ridiculous double standard.

People have been told that feminism is good, because it is good for women. I say that that is great--if it means actual equality, where people are held to a general fair standard. If feminists insist on their general current standard--which is actually no real standard at all, and is impossible to measure--then no thanks.

[Hirota]

"Evidence", coming from reactionaries?

I'm not a reactionary. I'm on the left, just not so far out on the left I'm incapable of seeing other perspectives. Horseshoe theory dictates I have more in common with the center and the moderate right. As you've demonstrated by making declarations of your own, the far left has more in common with the far right.

That's not the meaning of what I said at all, but whatever.

That is what you said nonetheless.

I have eyes, and ears.

Shame about the thing powering them is incapable of making unbiased rational observations.

I've listened to MRAs.

Thats up to you, but I'm not an MRA. Others on here? Sure. But you don't need to be an MRA to recognise there are areas of substantive inequality where men are disadvantaged.

They are the equivalent of white student unions and straight pride groups.

Another case of "everyone I don't agree with is Hitler" in play again. How very adorable.

"Evidence" this, "evidence" that.

Yes, I know it's terribly inconvenient to ask for evidence to support your ramblings, If you've got any that would be nice.

You keep using that word,

Because I know what it means, you don't seem to.

yet never provide any of your own,

This is another flat out lie.

outside made up statistics and the words of sheltered Youtubers.

Lets look at one of MY posts. Not a single youtuber included. Lets look how many youtubers I mention here. If you want to argue they are "made up statistics" then the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate they are either made up or unreliable. You saying they are made up does not make it true.

[Wallenburg]

It's foolish to attack Ostro's beliefs rather than his actual facts and information. Who cares what he believes? In a democracy, that should not mater. What should matter are actual shared values--justice, ,peaceful resolution of conflict, value of human life, ,fairnes, honesty. Those are values. Political views are just how you believe those values should be acted upon in the political sphere.

Why shouldn't we attack his beliefs? He sure as hell hasn't refrained from attacking mine, or others'.

Feminists generally have made it very clear that hey do not share those values.

What the hell are you talking about? Feminists oppose justice and fairness? That is literally the basis of feminism. Now, I completely agree that some feminists have an extremely warped view of what constitutes justice and fairness, but saying that they hold no value in those concepts is completely disingenuous.

Their values are entirely about how women feel about things, that majority. How else could someone seriously compare the life of the average woman living in Toronto with the life of the average woman living in some civil war torn hellhole?

Umm...where did a feminist do that? It would be easier to determine whether there was adequate basis for such a comparison if I were to have a concrete example.

Most people in the West are brought up to value women's lives--contrary to feminist teachings.

I am unaware of a feminist so detached from reality to believe that most Westerners are not taught to value the lives of women.

The problem with this is that women are generally saying they want equality. That's fair.

Except you just said that feminism does not share the value of fairness. So which one is it?

But then they get no more chivalry. That means being called on your bullshit.

I'm not entirely sure you know what chivalry is. Selflessness toward women is just a narrow aspect of the much broader idea of chivalry, and really just builds off of the general idea of respect toward all people.

People need to amke up their minds. If they want to protect women, great let's have chivalry back. But if not then women should be no more protected than men are, should face the same challenges and the same possibility of success or failure.

And as a feminist, I fully support that.

That is a standard I intend to insist on. At one time, that was generally believed to be what feminism stood for. Now such feminists are mostly middle aged to old aged women who are marginalized as others demand a ridiculous double standard.

And the young, college-age men? I understand the stereotype you put forward, but it is kind of amusing that you use that when it deviates so much from reality.

People have been told that feminism is good, because it is good for women. I say that that is great--if it means actual equality, where people are held to a general fair standard. If feminists insist on their general current standard--which is actually no real standard at all, and is impossible to measure--then no thanks.

My current standard is complete and absolute equality of opportunity, treatment, and opportunity under the law. So your statement seems extremely self-contradictory to me.

[Hirota]

Umm...where did a feminist do that? It would be easier to determine whether there was adequate basis for such a comparison if I were to have a concrete example.

Rape culture. The idea perpetuated by feminists that women are raped in US colleges more often than areas in conflict where rape is used as a strategy to bring about ethnic cleansing. It's absolute bollocks, but it keeps getting recycled as fact by feminists.

I am unaware of a feminist so detached from reality to believe that most Westerners are not taught to value the lives of women.

Go read the feminism thread. Several right there.

[Wallenburg]

Umm...where did a feminist do that? It would be easier to determine whether there was adequate basis for such a comparison if I were to have a concrete example.

Rape culture. The idea perpetuated by feminists that women are raped in US colleges more often than areas in conflict where rape is used as a strategy to bring about ethnic cleansing. It's absolute bollocks, but it keeps getting recycled as fact by feminists.

Other surveys asked the question in different ways, and some focused on different definitions of sexual assault. Overall, though, the general trends were relatively consistent with the Campus Sexual Assault Study.

The Medical University of South Carolina released the results of a survey in 2007. Unlike the Campus Sexual Assault Study, the pool of respondents, including 2,000 college women, was national.

The survey found that 11.5 percent of women attending college had been raped, including forcible rape, drug-facilitated rape, and incapacitated rape. That number is relatively on par with the Campus Sexual Assault Survey, which found 3.4 percent of women said they were victims of forced rape and 8.5 percent said they experienced incapacitated rape.

A much earlier survey, the Sexual Victimization of College Women conducted by the U.S. Department of Justice in 1996, concluded that "over the course of a college career — which now lasts an average of 5 years — the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter." That was based on findings that 1 in 36 women experience a completed rape since the start of the school year (the survey was conducted between March and May of 1996).

The survey also found that 15.5 percent of students reported experiencing "sexual victimization," which ranges from rape to unwanted touching. That is in line with the Campus Sexual Assault Study, which found 13.7 percent of women experienced a completed sexual assault.

Koss, who has written extensively on this topic, said the best data comes from a Centers for Disease Control survey, which found that across all age groups, nearly 1 in 5 women are raped in their lifetime and 44.6 percent experience non-rape sexual violence.

So the statistic is quite accurate, albeit possibly a little too high to earnestly represent the national average.

Also, your links don't actually show me where a feminist "compared the life of the average woman living in Toronto with the life of the average woman living in some civil war torn hellhole", or even where a feminist claimed "that women are raped in US colleges more often than areas in conflict where rape is used as a strategy to bring labout ethnic cleansing."

I am unaware of a feminist so detached from reality to believe that most Westerners are not taught to value the lives of women.

Go read the feminism thread. Several right there.

You mean Chess? Well, I guess you are right there, although her radical opinions still do not indicate that "feminist teachings" spout the same rhetoric.

[Hirota]

You mean Chess? Well, I guess you are right there, although her radical opinions still do not indicate that "feminist teachings" spout the same rhetoric.

I'll get back to the 1 in 5 question in due course if I have the time

I wasn't even limiting myself to Chess - several feminists in that thread are detached from reality. Natapoc for example. In fairness though, the majority in that thread are the complete opposite.

[New Edom]

Here is the crux of the issue.

The difference between much of feminism and the manosphere in general is this:
The leading lights of the feminist movement entirely dismiss the notion that the men's rights movement, the men going their own way movement, or the pick up artist movement should even EXIST. They are branded as virtual criminals and as haters of women. Everything they say is dismissed as madness. They are at best depicted as pitiable people who are delusional.

The general underlying beiefs of feminism are on the other hand not atacked by most people in the manospher. What is attacked is how they are trying to go about their aims. This is what is being questioned.

Now, because questioning ANUYTHING about feminism is dismissed in some way or other, ALWAYS, by nearly all feminists who receive such criticism, as paranoid, stupid, delusional or woman hating, there is literally no chocie left but to oppose the ideology and activism of feminism itself. Tehre is no other choice whatsoever. Tehre is zero recognition of anything that has become a part of feminist ideology and belief. So if feminsits dismis their opponents as insnae and try to smear their characters, so be it. Opposition there must be.

[Sanctissima]

So the statistic is quite accurate, albeit possibly a little too high to earnestly represent the national average.

The "1 in 5 women who go to college in the US will be raped" statistic is horrendously inaccurate. The number is closer to 1 in 53 or thereabouts, which is still high, but nowhere near as massive as is claimed. The disinformation actually comes from one shoddy anonymous survey done by some researchers that didn't intend for their research to be quoted anyway.

There's actually a good video on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0mzqL50I-w

The people who made the video have a pretty major conservative-bias, so take it with a grain of salt, but this particular video does summarize all the facts succinctly.

Basically, the 1/5 statistic is a lie.

[Wallenburg]

So the statistic is quite accurate, albeit possibly a little too high to earnestly represent the national average.

The "1 in 5 women who go to college in the US will be raped" statistic is horrendously inaccurate. The number is closer to 1 in 53 or thereabouts, which is still high, but nowhere near as massive as is claimed. The disinformation actually comes from one shoddy anonymous survey done by some researchers that didn't intend for their research to be quoted anyway.

There's actually a good video on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0mzqL50I-w

The people who made the video have a pretty major conservative-bias, so take it with a grain of salt, but this particular video does summarize all the facts succinctly.

Basically, the 1/5 statistic is a lie.

I'm not going to watch another Prager University video. Each one I've watched has been, at the very least, laced with bullshit.

[Truckee Meadows]

I'll tell you why I am pro-feminism, for the sake of discussion.

I am a cis-gendered male who had the unfortunate honor of having a father who embraced intolerance and traditionalism. My father raised me to "act like a man," how to objectify women, and would always harshly reprimand me if I so much as expressed an interest in activities that "normally" (and I hate that word) correspond to the opposite gender. He taught me that it was OK to treat people of the opposite gender disrespectfully when young, as it is only a matter of "enjoying one's youth." He shrieked at my struggles with my own sexual identity. And it was even the petty things: for example, he threw away a dollhouse that my mom gave me when I was a child and threatened me over a man-purse that I borrowed from my grandmother for the sake of convenience.

I am a feminist because I seek to live in a world where people like my father can never again spread his nonsense to others in a socially acceptable context.

[Sanctissima]

The "1 in 5 women who go to college in the US will be raped" statistic is horrendously inaccurate. The number is closer to 1 in 53 or thereabouts, which is still high, but nowhere near as massive as is claimed. The disinformation actually comes from one shoddy anonymous survey done by some researchers that didn't intend for their research to be quoted anyway.

There's actually a good video on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0mzqL50I-w

The people who made the video have a pretty major conservative-bias, so take it with a grain of salt, but this particular video does summarize all the facts succinctly.

Basically, the 1/5 statistic is a lie.

I'm not going to watch another Prager University video. Each one I've watched has been, at the very least, laced with bullshit.

Every now and then, they spew out a good one, and this is one that states all the facts nice and succinctly. There's still the usual political undertone, but all that really matters is the information.

If you don't want to watch it, then that's your prerogative, but the 1/5 statistic is BS.

[Stormopolis]

True feminism is gone. Most pressing matters have been addressed in the western world. So now this new wave of feminisits is really nothing more than a nuisance with their odd things to defend. Makes you wonder why they aren't protesting against the saudis who won't let their women drive. But that must be setting priorities. I'm sure women not getting to drive (because they get ovarian cancer. saudi clerics have gone on record saying this was the reason they don't let women drive) is nowhere as serious as men not automatically being the perpetrators of ANY case between a man and a woman.

[Wallenburg]

I'm not going to watch another Prager University video. Each one I've watched has been, at the very least, laced with bullshit.

Every now and then, they spew out a good one, and this is one that states all the facts nice and succinctly. There's still the usual political undertone, but all that really matters is the information.

If you don't want to watch it, then that's your prerogative, but the 1/5 statistic is BS.

I see, that's why all the data points to that figure.

I do have a question though: Is the presenter in the video you linked a woman? Because it seems to me that they would pay a woman to read off whatever they had to say on a subject such as rape of women.

[Sanctissima]

Every now and then, they spew out a good one, and this is one that states all the facts nice and succinctly. There's still the usual political undertone, but all that really matters is the information.

If you don't want to watch it, then that's your prerogative, but the 1/5 statistic is BS.

I see, that's why all the data points to that figure.

I do have a question though: Is the presenter in the video you linked a woman? Because it seems to me that they would pay a woman to read off whatever they had to say on a subject such as rape of women.

-sigh-

What data? Give me some actual hard data that says 1/5 women who go to college are raped, and I'll believe you. Otherwise, you're just spouting BS.

And yes, the presenter is a woman. It's PragerU, what do you expect? They aren't even a university, as is suggested by the name. But that's not the point, because the information they present is true, and they present it succinctly. Like I said, that's why I linked it.

[Ostroeuropa]

1/5 women in surveys on colleges which ask for respondents to a survey on sexual assault answer yes to questions which range from;
Have you ever been kissed without your permission
to
Have you ever been penetrated without your permission?


This is akin to me up and deciding that 100% of males are MURDERED!!!!! Because they've all experienced physical violence at some time in their lives.

That the 1/5 are raped myth is pushed so hard and so often by feminist institutions should clue you in to how the movement actually works.

You should note that the "Kissed without your permission" question makes the entire survey a farce. It's too ambiguous a question and easily covers benign miscommunication in addition to sexual assault, which you could argue is entirely intentional, because the people who run feminism are like chessmistress as she keeps pointing out to everyone.

Half of the point is to demonize and vilify any and all relations between men and women. You know how Chess constantly cites laws and professors and stuff that agree with her?
How come you can't seem to do that?

It's because she's right about what feminism actually is.

[Wallenburg]

I see, that's why all the data points to that figure.

I do have a question though: Is the presenter in the video you linked a woman? Because it seems to me that they would pay a woman to read off whatever they had to say on a subject such as rape of women.

-sigh-

What data? Give me some actual hard data that says 1/5 women who go to college are raped, and I'll believe you. Otherwise, you're just spouting BS.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/ar ... ge-women-/

And yes, the presenter is a woman. It's PragerU, what do you expect? They aren't even a university, as is suggested by the name. But that's not the point, because the information they present is true, and they present it succinctly. Like I said, that's why I linked it.

I highly doubt it is all true. My point with the presenter being a woman is that, despite being conservative, PragerU is still too concerned with political correctness to let their claims stand on their own two feet, rather than scoring brownie points by having a woman talk about rape or a black person talk about racism.